1. #21
    @Soldier_of_Dawn

    "isn't that on you?"

    I find this part of the first segment to be interesting. Since I can easily apply that to people who are consistently dying to light spam. The argument about skill floor can really be correct from both of our perspectives. Neither is more or less correct.

    "Lights will always be worth throwing since they are unreactable.."

    Except they are not unreactable. The only truly unreactable lights in the game are 400ms ones of which we barely have any. Even if they were actually truly unreactable that doesn't wish wash away the issue I presented which is the risk/reward ratio when involving a parry. That would be like saying Gryphon's kick is worthwhile to throw out often just because it is also unreactable. If input delay was a non issue on console people probably wouldn't be getting blendered as a common place thing. I just don't feel comfortable making things worse in other areas to solve a hardware problem.

    "The problem with heroes like Kensei or Orochi is a full light chain can take off around 40dmg.."

    So why address lights as a whole if it's only problematic from specific heros? That's the problem of only looking at the situation from a damage perspective.
    If you are trying to make lights more like jabs then only openers would need to be reduced while the rest are just fine. You have heros like Orochi and Pk who are heavily reliant on lights for damage. So making big changes to lights is going to effect them more. This is why a blanket approach doesn't work here for this fictitious problem.


    "BP's short bash(with the chained bash being the main culprit) is the only one that can't be punished on read, reaction isn't the issue here."

    That's a flat out false statement and also misleading. You are obviously referring to punishing his neutral bash with a GB as nearly every dodge attack can punish his bash on a read. But you can absolutely dodge his neutral bash on a read and get a GB. There is video proof of this. The issue with his neutral bash is that to make that read and get a GB it's comparatively more difficult to do so because the window is shorter. I mentioned reaction here because it is important when speaking of balancing it. Ideally (imo) no dodge non chargable bash should be punishable with a GB considering how GB's are designed. I think only chargable bashes and bash based mix ups (like gryphon's) should be punishable with a GB. Regardless. None of this really goes into what I said about BP initially and the topic isn't about BP so i'm not going to dive further.

    "bashes are unreactable thanks to the CCU."

    The only reason i'm addressing this part is because it goes hand in hand with my previous statement regarding lights. They're not unreactable to everyone. It's not just reaction monsters that are still able to react to lights and bashes. Players like myself exist. So i'm going to bring this full circle and only respond to whatever you say in response to this segment for brevity sake. "light spam" is effective to a point and always will be because of consoles having more input delay. This is even the problem on newer consoles just to a slightly lesser extent. I do not condone making more balance changes purely based on a hardware problem. That walks the line of balancing different versions of the game which the devs already said they wouldn't do.

    The only reality I see where lights can be weaker damage wise across the board is if they become truly unreactable for everyone, parrying was reworked, and they were frame neutral. If you can agree to these changes than we're on some common ground.
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  2. #22
    Originally Posted by MrBdur Go to original post
    Well no. I mean. Bashes can be spammed but not like light attacks.

    Also, I never said spam was a problem at comp level, I said it poses a problem at GM level when locked at 60fps, but that's still on Console.

    Comp level refers only to PC players running 240fps and at 240fps, even newbies can consistently parry light attacks. Its just too easy.

    Also, I'm playing on Xbox Series X and the input delay is almost non existent like PC. It's how I'm consistently parrying lights now where I couldn't do that on my Xbox One.
    I never claimed you stated that. I said if it was a problem there than it's a real problem. Ranks don't matter so i'm really not going to care about that statement.
    That is not at all what comp level is. Not every comp player is running a god level pc. Finally I very much doubt the series x version has massively less input delay. PS5 doesn't and the specs are pretty similar in most regards. Even best case scenario and the SX is nearly as good as pc in terms of minimal input delay that's still just a single platform compared to all the platforms that are currently available to play the game. So not really a fair tool of measurment.


    Originally Posted by Csodaszarvas_G Go to original post
    Just a personal idea, but what about keeping the 100 ms hidden indicator for heavy attacks and only hide maybe 33 or 50 ms when it comes to light attacks.
    I thing this would make light spam a bit more bearable while still not deleting hidden indicators from the game.

    (Side note: I understand that if you have a monster PC than you can react to most of the light attacks if your pc provides you with 144 or 240 FPS. But not everybody have a top specs PC to play on maximum graphics and still get high FPS. My PC only achieves 60 FPS with For Honor in 1440p if every graphical option is turned down to the minimum and if I run it in windowed mode instead of full-screen. Being a Hungarian (like myself) doesn't help either because our salaries are a joke, so I can't just buy/built myself a new one. High end PCs are basically luxury items in my country. Anyway, the point which I would like to make is that 60 FPS is perfectly fine for me, and my PC can do that. I think that you don't need more that 60 in For Honor if you just want to relax, get some steam off and have some fun, like me. Because in the end a game first and foremost should provide fun. If you enjoy yourself while playing than winning is just an added bonus. But light spam is not fun, that is why I made my suggestion in my first sentences.)

    Thanks for reading, have a nice day!
    100ms was not hidden for any indicators. How much was hidden was based off of delayed inputs sense those are showing the true speeds of an attack. Because neutral lights are considered delayed by default (as any neutral input is,) they only hid 33ms of the indicator. Chain based attacks more or less had a 67ms delay window by default. So what the devs did was force all chain based attacks to visually look like that delay and then added an extra frame onto this (33ms) which is how you get the 100ms number for chained moves.
    Generally speaking if you could react to orochi top lights pre CCU you can react to neutral lights right now as they are the exact same. The problem has nothing to do with the indicators but the input delay that consoles suffer from.

    My PC is capable of pushing roughly 140ish frames on average if I have my settings low. I still can't react to everything. People really need to stop pushing the idea that frames alone make people reaction monsters. The determining factor of that is your genetics.
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  3. #23
    MrBdur's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    I never claimed you stated that. I said if it was a problem there than it's a real problem. Ranks don't matter so i'm really not going to care about that statement.
    That is not at all what comp level is. Not every comp player is running a god level pc. Finally I very much doubt the series x version has massively less input delay. PS5 doesn't and the specs are pretty similar in most regards. Even best case scenario and the SX is nearly as good as pc in terms of minimal input delay that's still just a single platform compared to all the platforms that are currently available to play the game. So not really a fair tool of measurment.




    100ms was not hidden for any indicators. How much was hidden was based off of delayed inputs sense those are showing the true speeds of an attack. Because neutral lights are considered delayed by default (as any neutral input is,) they only hid 33ms of the indicator. Chain based attacks more or less had a 67ms delay window by default. So what the devs did was force all chain based attacks to visually look like that delay and then added an extra frame onto this (33ms) which is how you get the 100ms number for chained moves.
    Generally speaking if you could react to orochi top lights pre CCU you can react to neutral lights right now as they are the exact same. The problem has nothing to do with the indicators but the input delay that consoles suffer from.

    My PC is capable of pushing roughly 140ish frames on average if I have my settings low. I still can't react to everything. People really need to stop pushing the idea that frames alone make people reaction monsters. The determining factor of that is your genetics.
    Lol the series x is running for honor much better than the ps5 then.

    You should feel the input delay. Its almost non existent. I'm catching light parries at the absolute last second, much like PC. It feels good, not gonna lie.

    I was pushing my laptop to run for honor over 100 frames and I gotta say, things felt slower. It definitely gave me an advantage compared to the 30fps I had before I got my Series X.

    Then I met some parry gods and when I asked how they parry so well, their answer was "we have 144fps". Lol.

    Dunno what else to tell ya.
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  4. #24
    MrBdur's Avatar Senior Member
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    [/QUOTE]

    "The problem with heroes like Kensei or Orochi is a full light chain can take off around 40dmg.."

    So why address lights as a whole if it's only problematic from specific heros? That's the problem of only looking at the situation from a damage perspective.
    If you are trying to make lights more like jabs then only openers would need to be reduced while the rest are just fine. You have heros like Orochi and Pk who are heavily reliant on lights for damage. So making big changes to lights is going to effect them more. This is why a blanket approach doesn't work here for this fictitious problem.
    [/QUOTE]

    I feel inclined to agree. There are definitely some heroes that would suffer too greatly from the blanket approach.

    In that case, a number of heroes would serve well to have reduced light attack damage, but not all.
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  5. #25
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    @Soldier_of_Dawn

    "isn't that on you?"

    I find this part of the first segment to be interesting. Since I can easily apply that to people who are consistently dying to light spam. The argument about skill floor can really be correct from both of our perspectives. Neither is more or less correct.
    In context, the difference is you wouldn't able to blame anything on an over-tuned aspect of a kit or use of an exploit. Again, reducing the viability of spam would raise the skill floor for the average player.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    "Lights will always be worth throwing since they are unreactable.."

    Except they are not unreactable. The only truly unreactable lights in the game are 400ms ones of which we barely have any. Even if they were actually truly unreactable that doesn't wish wash away the issue I presented which is the risk/reward ratio when involving a parry. That would be like saying Gryphon's kick is worthwhile to throw out often just because it is also unreactable. If input delay was a non issue on console people probably wouldn't be getting blendered as a common place thing. I just don't feel comfortable making things worse in other areas to solve a hardware problem.
    They are to most. It's one of the main reasons why the CCU and the Testing Grounds prior to it received a mixed reception. Lights are landing more often because they can't be parried or blocked as much.

    I also don't agree with this argument of risk/reward issue regarding light parries since they don't happen as often, and, again, lights are landing more often, making them safer.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    "The problem with heroes like Kensei or Orochi is a full light chain can take off around 40dmg.."

    So why address lights as a whole if it's only problematic from specific heros? That's the problem of only looking at the situation from a damage perspective.
    If you are trying to make lights more like jabs then only openers would need to be reduced while the rest are just fine. You have heros like Orochi and Pk who are heavily reliant on lights for damage. So making big changes to lights is going to effect them more. This is why a blanket approach doesn't work here for this fictitious problem.
    Here's the thing, the devs did multiple things to address the issue of light spam including introducing frame disadvantage, making it possible to dodge out of light chains, and increasing the stamina cost of lights to 9. People who complain about light spam and the CCU suggest have frequently suggested removing the hidden indicator, just as the OP did. I'm suggesting that the solution to light spam is to reduce the damage instead of removing the indicators(or making them more reactable) and keeping the high stamina cost.

    When I mentioned specific heroes, I was giving examples. I do agree that the devs should go after the main culprits when it comes to certain complaints but that goes without saying. The devs also did this with light spam when they nerfed the Orochi and Nuxia first but, of course, there are more light spammers than those two. Light spam is a broad term that applies to a range of heroes but, of course, not all.

    In general, I do feel that damage globally should be reduced to allow for more players to make reads so the game would be more accessible as a result. Yes, I would start with lights but neutral heavies as well.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    "BP's short bash(with the chained bash being the main culprit) is the only one that can't be punished on read, reaction isn't the issue here."

    That's a flat out false statement and also misleading. You are obviously referring to punishing his neutral bash with a GB as nearly every dodge attack can punish his bash on a read. But you can absolutely dodge his neutral bash on a read and get a GB. There is video proof of this. The issue with his neutral bash is that to make that read and get a GB it's comparatively more difficult to do so because the window is shorter. I mentioned reaction here because it is important when speaking of balancing it. Ideally (imo) no dodge non chargable bash should be punishable with a GB considering how GB's are designed. I think only chargable bashes and bash based mix ups (like gryphon's) should be punishable with a GB. Regardless. None of this really goes into what I said about BP initially and the topic isn't about BP so i'm not going to dive further.
    Regardless, BP's chained bash can't be punished even on read, which shouldn't be the case. I mentioned bashes in response to your original comment about where they shouldn't pause stamina regen and short ones shouldn't be unpunishable. When you talk about unpunishable short bashes, BP is the main culprit. In my experience, his chained bash can't be punished and others have said the same thing. If there is video proof that showing otherwise, let me see it.

    The problem with making neutral bashes unpunishable would make them too safe and abusable, and the bash spam complaints would sore to new heights.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    "bashes are unreactable thanks to the CCU."

    The only reason i'm addressing this part is because it goes hand in hand with my previous statement regarding lights. They're not unreactable to everyone. It's not just reaction monsters that are still able to react to lights and bashes. Players like myself exist. So i'm going to bring this full circle and only respond to whatever you say in response to this segment for brevity sake. "light spam" is effective to a point and always will be because of consoles having more input delay. This is even the problem on newer consoles just to a slightly lesser extent. I do not condone making more balance changes purely based on a hardware problem. That walks the line of balancing different versions of the game which the devs already said they wouldn't do.
    Light spam, and what is unreactable in general, isn't exclusive to console or just a hardware problem. PC players complain about light spam as well. It's something I've regularly seen in the game chat since season 6. Yes, there are some that can react to what many feel is unreactable. Regardless, in context, I was addressing the issue with BP's unpunishable bash on read where reaction wasn't the issue.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    The only reality I see where lights can be weaker damage wise across the board is if they become truly unreactable for everyone, parrying was reworked, and they were frame neutral. If you can agree to these changes than we're on some common ground.
    Again, I'm saying the best way to address light spam is to reduce the damage of lights rather than make them more reactable(remove hidden indicators) and have high stamina costs. That way, players can attack more, and over-relying on lights or light spamming would get them punished.
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  6. #26
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    @Soldier_of_Dawn

    "isn't that on you?"

    I find this part of the first segment to be interesting. Since I can easily apply that to people who are consistently dying to light spam. The argument about skill floor can really be correct from both of our perspectives. Neither is more or less correct.

    "Lights will always be worth throwing since they are unreactable.."

    Except they are not unreactable. The only truly unreactable lights in the game are 400ms ones of which we barely have any. Even if they were actually truly unreactable that doesn't wish wash away the issue I presented which is the risk/reward ratio when involving a parry. That would be like saying Gryphon's kick is worthwhile to throw out often just because it is also unreactable. If input delay was a non issue on console people probably wouldn't be getting blendered as a common place thing. I just don't feel comfortable making things worse in other areas to solve a hardware problem.

    "The problem with heroes like Kensei or Orochi is a full light chain can take off around 40dmg.."

    So why address lights as a whole if it's only problematic from specific heros? That's the problem of only looking at the situation from a damage perspective.
    If you are trying to make lights more like jabs then only openers would need to be reduced while the rest are just fine. You have heros like Orochi and Pk who are heavily reliant on lights for damage. So making big changes to lights is going to effect them more. This is why a blanket approach doesn't work here for this fictitious problem.


    "BP's short bash(with the chained bash being the main culprit) is the only one that can't be punished on read, reaction isn't the issue here."

    That's a flat out false statement and also misleading. You are obviously referring to punishing his neutral bash with a GB as nearly every dodge attack can punish his bash on a read. But you can absolutely dodge his neutral bash on a read and get a GB. There is video proof of this. The issue with his neutral bash is that to make that read and get a GB it's comparatively more difficult to do so because the window is shorter. I mentioned reaction here because it is important when speaking of balancing it. Ideally (imo) no dodge non chargable bash should be punishable with a GB considering how GB's are designed. I think only chargable bashes and bash based mix ups (like gryphon's) should be punishable with a GB. Regardless. None of this really goes into what I said about BP initially and the topic isn't about BP so i'm not going to dive further.

    "bashes are unreactable thanks to the CCU."

    The only reason i'm addressing this part is because it goes hand in hand with my previous statement regarding lights. They're not unreactable to everyone. It's not just reaction monsters that are still able to react to lights and bashes. Players like myself exist. So i'm going to bring this full circle and only respond to whatever you say in response to this segment for brevity sake. "light spam" is effective to a point and always will be because of consoles having more input delay. This is even the problem on newer consoles just to a slightly lesser extent. I do not condone making more balance changes purely based on a hardware problem. That walks the line of balancing different versions of the game which the devs already said they wouldn't do.

    The only reality I see where lights can be weaker damage wise across the board is if they become truly unreactable for everyone, parrying was reworked, and they were frame neutral. If you can agree to these changes than we're on some common ground.
    Very true about kensei and orochi. And I think that Light spam is mostly problematic for them since as soon as they finish theyre light chain, if timed correctly, they can place a quick dodge attack on your frame reaction and get back to another chain.
    This without even touching to their feinting game, deflect, unblockable pressure, etc.
    (And not even touching to their defense game because they are allowed to parry too if I recall)
    The problem mostly come from the kit around this light spamming capacity so nerfing lights would just put pk, nobu, zanhu and a lot more in a unfair situation.
    I don't "feel" the light spam as much with any other hero than these two.
    Dodge attack is far too safe. The extended dodge shouldn't be immune to gb and people will already do less complaint about light spam I think.

    If I'm not mistaken, tiandi don't have any gb immunity while he dodge, or at least I find it to be far easier to catch

    But that's not the subject is it ?
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  7. #27
    "The problem with heroes like Kensei or Orochi is a full light chain can take off around 40dmg.."

    So why address lights as a whole if it's only problematic from specific heros? That's the problem of only looking at the situation from a damage perspective.
    If you are trying to make lights more like jabs then only openers would need to be reduced while the rest are just fine. You have heros like Orochi and Pk who are heavily reliant on lights for damage. So making big changes to lights is going to effect them more. This is why a blanket approach doesn't work here for this fictitious problem.
    [/QUOTE]

    I feel inclined to agree. There are definitely some heroes that would suffer too greatly from the blanket approach.

    In that case, a number of heroes would serve well to have reduced light attack damage, but not all.[/QUOTE]

    The thing is, removing the hidden indicator is also blanket approach. Whereas, at least, what I was suggesting directly addresses the particular issue, that being light spam. Of course, as with any issue, the devs should go after the culprits.
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  8. #28
    MayanKingGaming's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by MrBdur Go to original post
    Lol the series x is running for honor much better than the ps5 then.

    You should feel the input delay. Its almost non existent. I'm catching light parries at the absolute last second, much like PC. It feels good, not gonna lie.

    I was pushing my laptop to run for honor over 100 frames and I gotta say, things felt slower. It definitely gave me an advantage compared to the 30fps I had before I got my Series X.

    Then I met some parry gods and when I asked how they parry so well, their answer was "we have 144fps". Lol.

    Dunno what else to tell ya.
    I can attest at least for my xbox series x with my 60 hz monitor that fh in xbox runs a little better than in ps5 , and even compared against a low end rig. Homever I don`t own a ps5 but my cousin do, we both exchanged console for a week, because im interested in a ps5 for my son, and I could be doing more deflects and light parries on xbox but only slightly, i did a little spreadsheet. I think input delay was shorter on xbox but I dont have any means to demonstrate.perhaps is a matter of optimization or even I just had a good session.

    input delay is the problem most of the times, cause with 30, 60 or 120 fps the timing of the attack is the same but in comp. a 20, 30 or 50 ms, of control/tv/monitor/hardware input lag can be the key to win or lose, what fps aftfects is the animation detection pattern, that for players like me are extremely important, I can really see a difference when my rig is a 60 fps or 50, homever my investigation concluded that the most fps the less hardware related delay, even if im incapable to see every frame due the low cap of my monitor (60hz) my timings got slightly better at 100+fps, so i investigated that and more fps results in less input delay, if you are not using Vsync.Suposeddly amd freesync reduces it further if your gpu is taxed to the max.

    obviously, the best rig cannot beat genetics that in my case at 36 years old is 220 at average for speed test. Totally normal, but slightly better than people my age.

    https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime


    be warned that this number also has some marginal mouse input delay and delay from your monitor.

    I investigated also how 10 ms of input delay looks:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4

    sorry for the not so great english.
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  9. #29
    MrBdur's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by MayanKingGaming Go to original post
    I can attest at least for my xbox series x with my 60 hz monitor that fh in xbox runs a little better than in ps5 , and even compared against a low end rig. Homever I don`t own a ps5 but my cousin do, we both exchanged console for a week, because im interested in a ps5 for my son, and I could be doing more deflects and light parries on xbox but only slightly, i did a little spreadsheet. I think input delay was shorter but I dont have any means to demonstrate.perhaps is a matter of optimization or even I had just a good session.

    input delay is the problem most of the times, cause with 30, 60 or 120 fps the timing of the attack is the same but in comp. a 20, 30 or 50 ms, of control/tv/monitor/hardware input lag can be the key to win or lose, what fps aftfects is the animation detection pattern, that for players like me are extremely important, I can really see a difference when my rig is a 60 fps or 50, homever my investigation concluded that the most fps the less hardware related delay, even if im incapable to see every frame due the low cap of my monitor (60hz) my timings got slightly better at 100+fps, so i investigated that and more fps results in less input delay, if you are not using Vsync.Suposeddly amd freesync reduces it further if your gpu is taxed to the max.

    obviously, the best rig cannot beat genetics that in my case at 36 years old is 220 at average for speed test. Totally normal, but slightly better than people my age.

    https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime


    be warned that this number also has some marginal mouse input delay and delay from your monitor.
    sorry for the not so great english.
    Lol i got 65ms on that reaction time test by anticipating the green.
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  10. #30
    MrBdur's Avatar Senior Member
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    But yeah, folks, as frustrating as it is, I do see why the hidden indicators are needed. It's just annoying sometimes.

    That being said, my Xbox One does not respond nearly as quickly as my Series X and there is absolutely a difference in my performance between the two.

    Xbox One I have issues just blocking a lot of stuff. Series X I'm gettin light parries for days.
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