1. #11
    So we should remove bashes as well? Those are also spammed even at "high level" and are unreactable.
    This absolutely wouldn't help the game. The problem for console is and always will be the stupid amount of input delay.
    If we saw "spam" being the defacto way to play comp matches then we could call it a justifiable problem.
    But it's not and it's never been.

    Reverting this change just means people like myself who have okay reactions are going to shut out people who can't react all over again.
    And only reinforce defense as an issue (that's still very much present.)
    Share this post

  2. #12
    Gaser.'s Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Posts
    1,332
    Originally Posted by MrBdur Go to original post
    True, so they should reduce dmg of light attacks.
    Tho is it really a FPS issue?

    I still got my old monitor and that one caps at 60.
    Share this post

  3. #13
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    So we should remove bashes as well? Those are also spammed even at "high level" and are unreactable.
    This absolutely wouldn't help the game. The problem for console is and always will be the stupid amount of input delay.
    If we saw "spam" being the defacto way to play comp matches then we could call it a justifiable problem.
    But it's not and it's never been.

    Reverting this change just means people like myself who have okay reactions are going to shut out people who can't react all over again.
    And only reinforce defense as an issue (that's still very much present.)
    What do you think of reducing the damage of lights, to allow more time for reads, as an alternative solution, as MrBdur and I discussed?

    As for bashes, they need to stop pausing stamina recovery when you're OOS, and short bashes light BP's should be punishable on read at least. Those changes would help reduce bash spam.
    Share this post

  4. #14
    Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Dawn Go to original post
    What do you think of reducing the damage of lights, to allow for time for more reads, as an alternative solution, as MrBdur and I discussed?

    As for bashes, they need to stop pausing stamina recovery when you're OOS, and short bashes light BP's should be punishable on read at least. Those changes would help reduce bash spam.
    Light damage is fine as is. In theory lowering it would drop the skill floor a bit further making the game more accessible since even those who are just below me in terms of skill would be able to make pick ups and run backs more often. But it would have a knock on effect in two areas that would be really bad. The major one being risk vs reward. Lights are already almost not worth throwing out because of their comparable damage to the average light parry punish. That combined with being disadvantaged means they're really not a good tool for offense. Let alone attempting to poke people semi often which in other games jabs are relatively safe to use. Not so here.

    The other one being it would make death balls probably worse for the defender since they won't build revenge as fast. We already saw this with the nerfing of the light damage from CCU. But this would further do that. I just don't think "light spam" is a real problem worth dedicating anymore resources to. About the only way i'd be fine with further nerfing their damage is if lights became truly unreactable for everyone and parrying itself was a different mechanic. They'd also have to not be disadvantaged anymore. Neutral sure. But not disadvantaged.

    I think bashes in general shouldn't pause stamina regen. The only exceptions being Jorm (until his design isn't worst stamina bully in the game,) Cent's gb pommel smacks, and JJ's choke. But this is likely already being addressed if you keep up with looking at the bug report site that Ubi made for us. In regards to BP's bash i'd increase his block recovery time for his chain bash by 100ms. This allows for a consistent punish for dodge attacks but it would remain unpunishable for GB's due to the hitstun from a light leading into said bash. For his neutral bash Ideally it's recovery would be similar to Warlords.

    But the problem with that is the discrepancy between the bashes (imo anyway.) What I mean is Warlord's bash animation is VERY difficult to consistently react to. This is further made difficult to react to by Warlord having his guard up top. This fudges with the unblockable look since it's primarily focused around his head and a bit of his shoulders. Even if you can semi consistently late react you don't get a GB against it. However in BP's case his animation is far more obvious when he's going for a bash. And his entire shield which is the full length of his body glows. Basically meaning BP's neutral bash even if it's harder to punish with a GB is FAR easier to dodge on a consistent basis compared to WL's. So affording them equal punishment doesn't really seem fair.

    At the same time it feels really bad to not be able to punish it just because your reaction times are not perfect. If GB's were less of a powerful reward than I wouldn't mind making it easier to GB punish his neutral bash. Unfortunately the healthier option (but more work for the devs) is to give everyone some sort of "dodge attack" input. This would be an appropriate consistent punish for the whole roster. But I don't see the devs doing that. Honestly my only current issue with BP is the GB vulnerability for his bulwark slash. It should be increased a little.
    Share this post

  5. #15
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Light damage is fine as is. In theory lowering it would drop the skill floor a bit further making the game more accessible since even those who are just below me in terms of skill would be able to make pick ups and run backs more often. But it would have a knock on effect in two areas that would be really bad. The major one being risk vs reward. Lights are already almost not worth throwing out because of their comparable damage to the average light parry punish. That combined with being disadvantaged means they're really not a good tool for offense. Let alone attempting to poke people semi often which in other games jabs are relatively safe to use. Not so here.
    I don't think reducing the damage of lights would reduce the skill floor but the opposite since the spammers would be encouraged to use more of their hero's kit than just spamming. More of the player base would be learning to adapt which is a good thing since the developers want the game to be more read-based. The knock-on effect would be an increase in skill for the average player with spam being less viable and an increase in varied play styles as a result.

    This may frustrate players who can already cope consistently with the way things are since more opponents would be able to adapt to their play style and force them to change things up. To me, that's not a bad thing. If a player can adapt to your patterns and you can't turn things around, isn't that on you?

    Lights will always be worth throwing since they are unreactable and their hit rate is one of, if not, the highest in the game. They would still be good for reads, OOS punishes(where many players feel are too high), parry punishes, and stopping your opponent's momentum in certain situations. The problem with heroes like Kensei or Orochi is a full light chain can take off around 40dmg which is more than the average heavy and not much different before the CCU. Lights should be treated as jabs to get offense going but not as a 'go-to' to deal good damage.

    As a trade-off, the stamina cost of lights should be reduced back to what it was before the CCU at least so we can get back the ground we gained from the removal of the stamina penalties.

    In general, making the game more accessible is a good thing since we want greater player retention and concerns with player count has always been an issue. For Honor has a very steep learning curve with relatively high player frustration, which is something the devs are continually trying to address. Remember the game gets harder to learn as it gets older since the roster continues to increase. For new players, they have the following challenges:
    • They have to learn to the core mechanics which is unique from all other fighting games
    • The game is much faster than Season 1
    • They have to learn to defend against the kits of 28 heroes, which more than double of Season 1
    • They have to learn team fights including various 1vX & XvX scenarios which a 28 hero roster would dictate
    • They game is saturated with veterans, unlike Season 1 and matchmaking can be very merciless for new players

    As for veterans, not everyone has the time to put extra practice on top of the above. They may want to play other games or deal with greater priorities. Extra practice should only be required if you want to improve for ranked or competitive play.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    The other one being it would make death balls probably worse for the defender since they won't build revenge as fast. We already saw this with the nerfing of the light damage from CCU. But this would further do that. I just don't think "light spam" is a real problem worth dedicating anymore resources to. About the only way i'd be fine with further nerfing their damage is if lights became truly unreactable for everyone and parrying itself was a different mechanic. They'd also have to not be disadvantaged anymore. Neutral sure. But not disadvantaged.
    Reducing the damage of lights would barely have an effect on death balls since those scenarios often see gankers using high damage attacks/heavies for longer hit stuns as well as bashes, grabs, and pins to reduce your mobility, and feats to boot. Revenge would pop up just as often in most cases.

    Again light damage was barely reduced in the CCU, hence the light spam we still see and the complaints that come with them. It was the reduction in heavy damage that had a significant impact on revenge gains.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    I think bashes in general shouldn't pause stamina regen. The only exceptions being Jorm (until his design isn't worst stamina bully in the game,) Cent's gb pommel smacks, and JJ's choke. But this is likely already being addressed if you keep up with looking at the bug report site that Ubi made for us. In regards to BP's bash i'd increase his block recovery time for his chain bash by 100ms. This allows for a consistent punish for dodge attacks but it would remain unpunishable for GB's due to the hitstun from a light leading into said bash. For his neutral bash Ideally it's recovery would be similar to Warlords.

    But the problem with that is the discrepancy between the bashes (imo anyway.) What I mean is Warlord's bash animation is VERY difficult to consistently react to. This is further made difficult to react to by Warlord having his guard up top. This fudges with the unblockable look since it's primarily focused around his head and a bit of his shoulders. Even if you can semi consistently late react you don't get a GB against it. However in BP's case his animation is far more obvious when he's going for a bash. And his entire shield which is the full length of his body glows. Basically meaning BP's neutral bash even if it's harder to punish with a GB is FAR easier to dodge on a consistent basis compared to WL's. So affording them equal punishment doesn't really seem fair.

    At the same time it feels really bad to not be able to punish it just because your reaction times are not perfect. If GB's were less of a powerful reward than I wouldn't mind making it easier to GB punish his neutral bash. Unfortunately the healthier option (but more work for the devs) is to give everyone some sort of "dodge attack" input. This would be an appropriate consistent punish for the whole roster. But I don't see the devs doing that. Honestly my only current issue with BP is the GB vulnerability for his bulwark slash. It should be increased a little.
    BP's short bash(with the chained bash being the main culprit) is the only one that can't be punished on read, reaction isn't the issue here. While you've made a comparison to Warlord's, there's Warden's, Warmonger's, and Conqueror's, which all are punishable as well. Despite their short bashes being punishable by GB, they are considered as some of the strongest duelists in the game. BP is also one of the strongest since he has very few weaknesses and has both strong offense and defense but the only aspect of his kit that is over-tuned is having an unpunishable short bash, that's what separates him from the others. Also, for most players, bashes are unreactable thanks to the CCU.
    Share this post

  6. #16
    It also feels like, at least on console, the light spam hit stun mechanic could be adjusted because once you get hit by one light attack, you just get continually hit and the only thing you can do is disengage and roll away. There have been so many times where I try to dodge or just keep my block up against some of the infinite light spamming characters and it literally feels like nothing is registering. This seems to happen also with some of the sweeps, toe-stabs, ringing nails, bashes, where basically it feels helpless and there's nothing you can do.
    Share this post

  7. #17
    MrBdur's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,126
    Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Dawn Go to original post
    Framerate caps should only apply to crossplay and possibly the competitive scene on PC. If you opt-out, then it shouldn't happen since many PC players paid a lot of money to enjoy higher framerates and that's the way PC gaming has always been and should be. Also, unless I missed an update, the are currently no plans for crossplay.
    Well in that case, comp play should be locked to 60 and the game should be balanced around 60fps, not the 240fps that comp players usually have.
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  8. #18
    MrBdur's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,126
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    So we should remove bashes as well? Those are also spammed even at "high level" and are unreactable.
    This absolutely wouldn't help the game. The problem for console is and always will be the stupid amount of input delay.
    If we saw "spam" being the defacto way to play comp matches then we could call it a justifiable problem.
    But it's not and it's never been.

    Reverting this change just means people like myself who have okay reactions are going to shut out people who can't react all over again.
    And only reinforce defense as an issue (that's still very much present.)
    Well no. I mean. Bashes can be spammed but not like light attacks.

    Also, I never said spam was a problem at comp level, I said it poses a problem at GM level when locked at 60fps, but that's still on Console.

    Comp level refers only to PC players running 240fps and at 240fps, even newbies can consistently parry light attacks. Its just too easy.

    Also, I'm playing on Xbox Series X and the input delay is almost non existent like PC. It's how I'm consistently parrying lights now where I couldn't do that on my Xbox One.
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  9. #19
    MayanKingGaming's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    Mérida, México
    Posts
    670
    well I bought a 144 hz monitor with 1 ms of delay, overclocked my gpu to the limit, and also my xbox one controller with a shady program lol , also activated the freesync of amd, suposedly to reduce input lag (also activated the radeon anti lag feature , for further input delay reduction)...only thing is my monitor is coming next week...also I bought a new procesor that is coming in 15 days and im already saving for a 8gb gpu from actual gen. already bought a cat 6 cable for ethernet. already have an optic fiber, but i will purchase the best plan wich is 300 mb I think , symetrical.

    but the rest of the features that I implemented already are making big impact in my matchs...some recent events in pc triggered an infuriating shoping spree, events that are only plausible by cheating or by having super rigs with turtling masters mega smurfs as operators( no bashing to actually good and respectful pc players). By no means I`m rich or whatever, but I will not permit unskilled or compensating turtlers ruin my fun on pc. After all I want to be a pro streamer, and I want to stream for honor for the masses (mostly hispanic lol my channels are in spanish but everyone is welcome) so, yeah I could return to my xbox series x, which as mr bdur said is FAIRIER cause the cap and the equal rig makes skill the most important thing., and this is coming from a PC veteran( in other games that is)...BUT I will not, I will better myself to the max and I will beat those turtlers and maybe even the stupid script users that pest PC scene. So yeah I could say OC, input delay reduction , better fps,better software,better conection is doing miracles...I will put my final analysis here once my monitor arrives, but i´m really sure the difference will be abysmal, but what I see here is that PC still has turtlers everywhere(cheaters? bot users? scripts users? rep zeros with the third eye? lord smurf from sincebetaland that emote spam on corpses?) at least at high level,i think I 1000x prefer the spammers from console than that.

    I agree with the cap part for comp.
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  10. #20
    Just a personal idea, but what about keeping the 100 ms hidden indicator for heavy attacks and only hide maybe 33 or 50 ms when it comes to light attacks.
    I thing this would make light spam a bit more bearable while still not deleting hidden indicators from the game.

    (Side note: I understand that if you have a monster PC than you can react to most of the light attacks if your pc provides you with 144 or 240 FPS. But not everybody have a top specs PC to play on maximum graphics and still get high FPS. My PC only achieves 60 FPS with For Honor in 1440p if every graphical option is turned down to the minimum and if I run it in windowed mode instead of full-screen. Being a Hungarian (like myself) doesn't help either because our salaries are a joke, so I can't just buy/built myself a new one. High end PCs are basically luxury items in my country. Anyway, the point which I would like to make is that 60 FPS is perfectly fine for me, and my PC can do that. I think that you don't need more that 60 in For Honor if you just want to relax, get some steam off and have some fun, like me. Because in the end a game first and foremost should provide fun. If you enjoy yourself while playing than winning is just an added bonus. But light spam is not fun, that is why I made my suggestion in my first sentences.)

    Thanks for reading, have a nice day!
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post