I just finished filling out the survey and was a bit disappointed there was no extended sections for potential feedback for the heros going forward like we've had in the past. So this post will serve as a quick summary of my own survey and suggestions for the heros going forward.
Warden summary:
Overall I like the new Warden. You hardly feel the nerf to his cancel movement range thanks to the better hitboxes/range of his attacks. This was my biggest worry, it does mean his neutral bash is slightly less of a threat but I think it will still serve ample pressure against near oos/oos opponents. It'll be difficult to break out of the footsie mindset/muscle memory i've built over the years but I think the changes overall were worth that. That being said his stamina management isn't particularly great now that he's throwing attacks more to get into his mix up. Often feeling like I can't maintain pressure for long. And the damage on his finishers are a bit much.
Suggestions going forward:
Dial back the heavy finisher damages by a few points. And either lower the cost of his in chain bash more or globally reduce feint costs for everyone. Should also take the time to mention that his combo lights need love. Second light on the same side is 600ms iirc and shouldn't be a thing. And using his in chain light from any other direction seems pointless.
Peacekeeper summary:
Despite the major hype for the peace keeper changes I'm left feeling rather whelmed by how she felt. I ended up playing her the least out of my short time in TG due to this. The two changes I absolutely can't complain about are her unblockable heavy finishers and her zone now being heavy parry reward/enhanced on block always. Zone is a staple tool for her kit but probably less now (will get into that in a minute,) and the unblockables give her potential for anti gank, team fights, and general external pressure which is fantastic.
That's where my praise kind of stops though. The extra damage on her dodge attacks is nice but it also brought an overall damage bump to her kit which means she's killing as fast as pre TG ttk. Which is no. The recovery dodge after dagger cancel is a nice Gesture but it doesn't do anything for her since her dodge attacks do not count as chain starters, have absolutely abysmal hitboxes, and very VERY long recoveries if whiffed. If these were not problems I could maybe live with PK being disadvantaged after her dagger cancel. But probably not. I flat out disagree with the input change on deflects. Being able to go for a dodge attack and accidentally deflect is a no go and this goes for all heros with singular deflect inputs. Deflects should be deliberate inputs. Finally her zone. I appreciate the mix ups possible with it now. But it costs us using her tool as a quick 400ms interrupt due to the feint window being moved. It's a positive change for the health of the game. But i'd be lying if I said I enjoy the change personally.
Suggestions going forward:
Revert the damage buff to regular heavies and keep it for her dodge attacks only. Dagger cancel should be frame neutral not disadvantaged. Dodge attacks should count as chain openers. Buff their trajectory, and buff the recovery on whiff. A full second makes no sense. Nerf the damage on her triple kidney stab from GB by a bit.
Nobushi summary:
Probably the weirdest one for me to write as the changes themselves are nothing but positives from me. However it's not going to change Nobushi's position in terms of viability which would imply the changes were poor. I want to make this very clear, the changes themselves are fantastic. Nobushi's kit actually flows now and that's a VERY good thing that not many heros have. However the changes do not go far enough. Viper's retreat doesn't chain into anything which means it's still very niche and highly risky to use. Her cobra strike (dodge lights) are in an awful spot because they're a light parrie's worth of damage but still 600ms. And they don't dodge anything because they don't move very much on top of losing the very few I frames you would have the moment you input the attack.
The kick mix ups both from zone and off of any attack doesn't work despite having the UB/undodgable properties in play. This is because her kick is reactable and in the case of HS spacing is actually a problem because of the short range kick and the HS lights have. Kick itself is a problem because it's essentially forcing a mix up on Nobushi herself for attempting to be offensive. If she whiffs the kick it's a reactionary GB punish. However if she inputs the light after to stuff the GB attempt it's a reaction parry. Finally i'm not sure if HS is meant to be a punish tool or mix up tool. This should be made clear to us by the devs.
Suggestions going forward:
Kick needs to be 500ms. Let vipers retreat chain like the rest of the new chain links you've made. Keep cobra strike at 600ms but give it a reward of being a heavy parry instead (should be fine because her second hit of zone looks nearly identical but is considered a heavy.) Cobra strike needs to be a proper dodge attack now. Meaning it covers more distance/more I frames and does not lose I frames on attack input. Increase the range on her kick and HS lights.
Shugoki summary:
ARMORED LIGHTS ARE GONE -insert crab dancing here-
I like the addition of the dodge attacks but they both have flaws. Goki's dodge forward heavy has terrible recovery when whiffed. This makes sense for his unblockable heavies only. A catching tool really shouldn't be that harshly punished. Side dodge headbutt is a nice gesture but falls flat. The blind doesn't last long enough for any mix ups to happen and even if it did his mix ups are poor. His DE mix up is awful now because you can zone option select it. And this is easily done because of the armor removal on top of his chargable heavies only have one timing to them. They're not like Centurion or Hitokiri's where they become unblockable and stay unblockable for a portion of the mix up.
Suggestions going forward:
As much as i'd like for the armor on DE to stay gone it's kind of needed for the mix up to work (ignoring things like GB option selects and bash selects as that's not an exclusive problem to goki.) Though I understand it'll probably stay gone since the move lands too often and Ubi wants to bring that down. Potentially we can bring back neutral hug and have it serve as the armored counterpart. that way we can still use it for specific gank combos/team fight usage. But the comboed version stays as is. Recovery on both should be lower though. I would also suggest giving goki variable unblockable heavies instead of only having them be unblockable when at the last moment. Armor can be changed from being from when he releases to right at the end (think Hitokiri's mix up.) Could also make DE have armor again in combo instead of re adding neutral DE and also have the armor only exist when you soft feint from that specific point in his heavies.
I'm honestly just spit balling on trying to make his design work when I really think it doesn't. His blind on headbutt should be standardized to all other blinds in the game so it can actually be used. And the recovery needs to come down for his dodge forward heavy.
Thanks for reading.
This is a really good writeup. I must admit that I almost solely played pk in TG (and had a blast with her after two years of uselessness), so I will only speak about her.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
I agree on the Stáb damage, which is nuts, and I obviously agree on the dodge attacks, which are extremely dangeroues to use- I am so glad everyone only parries them, because sometimes I beat better players with less pk experience solely because of this. I am kind of okay with either deflect versions- I think the best would be to have a light bleed deflect, and a less damaging heavy deflect that may execute. I have to agree with the dodge out from dagger cancel thing as well. A very niche thing only working in very niche situations.
I disagree about the zone's second part, I enjoyed the change, and suggested it myself many times these years. It feels like a fair, dangerous move now, not something solely to eat your stamina. It greatly buffs pk's burst potential as well. Honestly, my only complaint is the stamina.
I have to disagree on the heavy damage. While it is true it is a bit over the top, pk's direct damage from her heavies is still weak, which means less gain from attack buffs, less gain from debuffs (like Fear Itself), worse trading (she is not a trader of course, but it makes her even weaker against hyperarmor), worse multihit if you hit more target. 5 damage buff might be much, but if some of it is taken, it should be taken from the bleed, not from the heavy.
Finally, some of her atrociously bad feats should be addressed. Conqueror is useless for her, Fiat Lux and Catapult is useless, and I think Crossbow might be the worst projectile feat right now. Pugno is meh as well. Oh, and heals should stop cleansing the bleed. It was so irritating to kill a noob Gryphon three times in a row to finally let him stay dead just because he pressed his free get out of jail card.
good input as always. As Goat most of my time was for my beloved PK, I think all changes were good, except for the new deflect input and the dodge cancel after dagger cancel which I feeled meh. Not bad per se but not good also. I think a better way to balance her damage could be by reducing the gb punish from stabs to 30-32 , heavies added damage my friend are absolutely needed just to obtain executions post ccu with her and all the bonuses asociated, or damage as goat said can be removed from bleed follows, like minus 2 damage from them.
On shugo maybe the loss of HA on demon`s embrace is unnecesary, but IDK maybe it was for the ganking potential of that single move.
This is a discussion about the TG. Don't hijack yet another post, dude.Originally Posted by FoxyVi Go to original post
These are probably the 2 best users in the forums to get credible opinions and factual information from. Just sayin. LOLOriginally Posted by MayanKingGaming Go to original post
I really enjoyed what they did with PK and Nobushi. I've always loved playing as those 2 but lately not as much due to just being weak/predictable heroes. I didn't play with them enough (or the TG as a whole really... babies are time consuming!!) But I did test them all out and they all seemed fairly well done.
I don't know that Nobu needs undodgeable finishers. I think giving her the option to chain previously unchainable moves like sidewinder into heavy finishers was awesome enough and perhaps just have the hidden stance heavies getting that undodgeable property. Everything else on her felt nice.
PK just felt good to play again without that overwhelming feeling of always being at a consistent disadvantage. She still needs work. I like the idea of lowering the triple stab bleed amount though.
Warden wasn't nearly as problematic as I thought he could have been. Allowing SB after any attack was closer to a nerf than anything, so the only beneficial thing really was the UB side heavy finishers. SB after a finisher was too harsh on stamina to really make any use of, and anyone trying to use it frequently would be OOS all the time.
Shugoki. Oh yes. Thank god. The light opener. Thank you. HA off of the light attack is wonderful. I almost think the hug should keep the armor. I like the forward dodge heavy. I like the side dodge headbutt. Literally the only REAL issue about him was the light attack. It could stuff almost anything on reaction, similar to Hitokiri at her release.
Anyways, that's my take on my very limited experience with the TG this round.
Originally Posted by Goat_of_Vermund Go to original post
My problem with the deflect input is that having it on the same button as your dodge attack makes it easier to option select with dodge attacks/deflects. It's not the "biggest" deal and tbf bash/gb selecting is far worse. But still.
Don't get me wrong I like that her zone has a proper mix up now. I just miss the quick snappy 400ms interrupt tool we used to have. Because that existed people had to always be cautious of that side while looking at two other stances. It's a weird thing to complain about I admit. I won't be sad if we don't get that back. But I can say purely from a feeling/input perspective I don't enjoy the feint window change.
Finally i'm fine with her doing more damage in general. It just needs to come from the current pool of damage via her bleed. Meaning for her regular heavies if they're going to do more direct she needs to lose some bleed damage overall. Giving her more direct damage but keeping bleed the same is just repeating history with pk where she's been repeatedly buffed and nerfed because of how much damage she's doing or not doing.
As I mentioned to goat I don't mind more direct damage. I just don't think it's good for her overall damage profile to get that on top of keeping current bleed. They should've taken damage from her bleed to compensate for more direct.Originally Posted by MayanKingGaming Go to original post
All of this info is from a single day of TG play. I had redownloaded the game to give my feedback on the new hero and TG on the 10th but got busy with irl stuff. I regret that I didn't dedicate more time to playing. I feel like I could've given more focused feedback if I actually played it off and on for a week like I wanted to. Hopefully it's still useful for someone over at Ubi.Originally Posted by MrBdur Go to original post