Ideas to balance Gryphon | Forums

[Balancepls]

Hello everyone ! This is my first post so I hope this is the appropriate place.

I have been playing this game for roughly three years now, and would say I'm decent at it. This is a summary of my thoughts on the new hero Gryphon. I've been playing against him none stop since his release, so I've gotten comfortable enough with his moveset. I'll just list some of my thoughts on what needs to be adressed to make him a more balanced hero.

1. Before anything, I would like to adress a core element of Gryphon. The fact is : every hero whose moveset is based around bashes should/does not have a strong side dodge attack with guardbreak invulnerability that allows him get into his bash combo. Let's take a look at other characters that rely on bashes : conq, BP and warden for instance. None of them have a side dodge attack. It's either one or the other, but both gives him too many tools to work with and puts other characters at a disadvantage : you're forced to turtle and bait against him because if he dodges one of your attacks (with those I frames), it opens up so many options for him (and only gives you a light in exchange for the parry), which is not in line with the goal of the CCU. The only hero I can think of who is able to side dodge attack into his bash combo is valk (and it still requires a heavy faint), but her bash only guarantees a light, not 28 damage. Anyhow, I am not against him having the dodge whatsoever, but think it needs a lot of guardbreak vulnerability like JJ's to make other players' mixups rewarding and limit the spam.

2. The issue of having 2 different bashes. The kick bash is a great mixup in my opinion (it makes the game more prediction oriented, which is good) and its speed is ok, but it has other issues that we'll adress later. However, the problem is him having a bash from neutral (Gryphon's shove) as well, which is much harder to read when in the hands of a good player. The move can be easily mixed up with feints and gives him so many safer options to get into his combo, or keep it going, compared to the majority of the cast. and it makes his kit too diverse and unfair compared to every other hero. I would suggest making the animation more obvious and/or the indicator show up faster.

3. The issues of the kick bash. I do believe that this bash is a very nice addition to the hero, but in my opinion, some tweaking should be done to make it a fair competition with other heroes. Let's use an example for this one. Let's say I'm playing Warden and I'm about to throw a top heavy unblockable (I pick top since Gryphon's is a top attack). If I think my opponent is not going to move, I throw it and get big damage (+3). If I think he is going to dodge or parry with a heavy, I feint into guard break and get slightly less big damage (+2). If I think he's going to zone, I feint and try to parry his zone, and get small damage (+1). Parrying the zone requires me to read and use skill. If I get parried, he gets small damage (-1) and if my opponent dodges and guardbreaks, he gets big damage (-2). Now let's go over the process with the kick. Right before I hit the kick input, if I think my opponent is not going to move, I throw it and get big damage (+3). However, since the opponent cannot zone OS the kick, if I think he is going to dodge, I have 2 options : I can guardbreak him with a tight timing instead and get slightly less big damage (+2) or go into the tracking light and get small damage (+1). If I throw the kick and get dodged, he gets big damage (-2). The average outcome of the first scenario is +0,6 (= 0,2*3+0,2*2+0,2*1+0,2*(-1)+0,2*(-2)) while the average outcome of the second scenario is +1 (=0,25*3+0.25*2+0.25*1+0.25*(-2)). So there is that, the kick is a stronger move on average than any unblockable (1 > 0,6). Another difference is that to get that (+1), the process was very different. One had to predict a zone OS and parry with 1 chance out of 3 that the opponent does indeed zone OS, while the other just had to predict a dodge with 1 chance out of 2 and press a button without any timing involved, which is a little cheesy to be honest. Now you could be asking : wait, why didn't you consider the possibility of the defender light parrying that tracking light ? That is simple : in the first scenario, it is the Warden player that has to read 2 moves in advance to parry a zone, which is fair since he is on average the winner of the exchange (+0,6). However, in the second scenario, it is the defensive player that has to read 2 moves in advance in addition to being the one losing the exchange on average (+1 in favor of the offensive player). And, even if he were to read, a light is much harder to parry than a zone OS, and the outcome would become +0,4 (=0,2*3+0.2*2+0.2*1+0.2*(-2)+0.2*(-2)) still in favor of the offensive player. So being the defensive player in the second scenario is much harder than in the first scenario, because it is less fair and less rewarding, making Gryphon a little broken in that aspect. I haven't thought of any solution yet, but I will later down the line.

4. This one will be a short one : his stamina. This man never runs out of stamina, he can keep doing his combo for 3 full cycles and still have some left. He's light years away from the Warden rework who can barely keep up for one full mixup without having to retreat to prevent going out of stamina. I'd say either reduce stamina cost for everyone else, which is not going to happen because of the CCU, or reduce his stamina, which is bound to happen at some point Ubi. To go back to our two scenarios, in the first case, the Warden needs to throw and then cancel his unblockable 2 times out of 4 which consumes a lot of stamina, while Gryphon's kick stamina use isn't nearly close to that, neither are his lights, and he can always guardbreak.

5. The lack of revenge being fed to a player ganked by one or more Gryphons is an issue I've expercienced in 4s. This issue is related to the power of Gryphons bashes. While being ganked is usually somewhat managable, if you are being ganked by one or more close to decent Gryphon players, there's simply no way out. I have been hit by 2 kicks from 2 different Gryphons that I wasn't locked on (my revenge was filled around 1/3 of the way already), and still didn't get a fully charged revenged, which makes no sense to me and should be adjusted. Same logic should apply to the neutral bash : increase revenge feed of the bashes, especially when they guarantee 28 damage.

Anyways, that's it for now, thank you for reading if you have reached this point ! I think my thoughts aren't 100% clear yet, but I believe the key points I mentionned should be the ones that Ubi prioritizes next.

If you have any ideas yourself, don't hesitate to post them in the comments, have a good day/night everyone !

[PanzerShrekonin]

I am curious how this thread is going to go down.

[King_of_Xibalba]

on point with the stamina. The others well I don`t have a problem, but yes the stamina cost relation is a bit cheap for a heavy/hybrid.

[GayForShugoki]

The kick is useless in ganks as if the enemy sneezes on you, it misses and can be blocked/parried.

[ftcusn3]

Hello everyone ! This is my first post so I hope this is the appropriate place.

I have been playing this game for roughly three years now, and would say I'm decent at it. This is a summary of my thoughts on the new hero Gryphon. I've been playing against him none stop since his release, so I've gotten comfortable enough with his moveset. I'll just list some of my thoughts on what needs to be adressed to make him a more balanced hero.

1. Before anything, I would like to adress a core element of Gryphon. The fact is : every hero whose moveset is based around bashes should/does not have a strong side dodge attack with guardbreak invulnerability that allows him get into his bash combo. Let's take a look at other characters that rely on bashes : conq, BP and warden for instance. None of them have a side dodge attack. It's either one or the other, but both gives him too many tools to work with and puts other characters at a disadvantage : you're forced to turtle and bait against him because if he dodges one of your attacks (with those I frames), it opens up so many options for him (and only gives you a light in exchange for the parry), which is not in line with the goal of the CCU. The only hero I can think of who is able to side dodge attack into his bash combo is valk (and it still requires a heavy faint), but her bash only guarantees a light, not 28 damage. Anyhow, I am not against him having the dodge whatsoever, but think it needs a lot of guardbreak vulnerability like JJ's to make other players' mixups rewarding and limit the spam.

2. The issue of having 2 different bashes. The kick bash is a great mixup in my opinion (it makes the game more prediction oriented, which is good) and its speed is ok, but it has other issues that we'll adress later. However, the problem is him having a bash from neutral (Gryphon's shove) as well, which is much harder to read when in the hands of a good player. The move can be easily mixed up with feints and gives him so many safer options to get into his combo, or keep it going, compared to the majority of the cast. and it makes his kit too diverse and unfair compared to every other hero. I would suggest making the animation more obvious and/or the indicator show up faster.

3. The issues of the kick bash. I do believe that this bash is a very nice addition to the hero, but in my opinion, some tweaking should be done to make it a fair competition with other heroes. Let's use an example for this one. Let's say I'm playing Warden and I'm about to throw a top heavy unblockable (I pick top since Gryphon's is a top attack). If I think my opponent is not going to move, I throw it and get big damage (+3). If I think he is going to dodge or parry with a heavy, I feint into guard break and get slightly less big damage (+2). If I think he's going to zone, I feint and try to parry his zone, and get small damage (+1). Parrying the zone requires me to read and use skill. If I get parried, he gets small damage (-1) and if my opponent dodges and guardbreaks, he gets big damage (-2). Now let's go over the process with the kick. Right before I hit the kick input, if I think my opponent is not going to move, I throw it and get big damage (+3). However, since the opponent cannot zone OS the kick, if I think he is going to dodge, I have 2 options : I can guardbreak him with a tight timing instead and get slightly less big damage (+2) or go into the tracking light and get small damage (+1). If I throw the kick and get dodged, he gets big damage (-2). The average outcome of the first scenario is +0,6 (= 0,2*3+0,2*2+0,2*1+0,2*(-1)+0,2*(-2)) while the average outcome of the second scenario is +1 (=0,25*3+0.25*2+0.25*1+0.25*(-2)). So there is that, the kick is a stronger move on average than any unblockable (1 > 0,6). Another difference is that to get that (+1), the process was very different. One had to predict a zone OS and parry with 1 chance out of 3 that the opponent does indeed zone OS, while the other just had to predict a dodge with 1 chance out of 2 and press a button without any timing involved, which is a little cheesy to be honest. Now you could be asking : wait, why didn't you consider the possibility of the defender light parrying that tracking light ? That is simple : in the first scenario, it is the Warden player that has to read 2 moves in advance to parry a zone, which is fair since he is on average the winner of the exchange (+0,6). However, in the second scenario, it is the defensive player that has to read 2 moves in advance in addition to being the one losing the exchange on average (+1 in favor of the offensive player). And, even if he were to read, a light is much harder to parry than a zone OS, and the outcome would become +0,4 (=0,2*3+0.2*2+0.2*1+0.2*(-2)+0.2*(-2)) still in favor of the offensive player. So being the defensive player in the second scenario is much harder than in the first scenario, because it is less fair and less rewarding, making Gryphon a little broken in that aspect. I haven't thought of any solution yet, but I will later down the line.

4. This one will be a short one : his stamina. This man never runs out of stamina, he can keep doing his combo for 3 full cycles and still have some left. He's light years away from the Warden rework who can barely keep up for one full mixup without having to retreat to prevent going out of stamina. I'd say either reduce stamina cost for everyone else, which is not going to happen because of the CCU, or reduce his stamina, which is bound to happen at some point Ubi. To go back to our two scenarios, in the first case, the Warden needs to throw and then cancel his unblockable 2 times out of 4 which consumes a lot of stamina, while Gryphon's kick stamina use isn't nearly close to that, neither are his lights, and he can always guardbreak.

5. The lack of revenge being fed to a player ganked by one or more Gryphons is an issue I've expercienced in 4s. This issue is related to the power of Gryphons bashes. While being ganked is usually somewhat managable, if you are being ganked by one or more close to decent Gryphon players, there's simply no way out. I have been hit by 2 kicks from 2 different Gryphons that I wasn't locked on (my revenge was filled around 1/3 of the way already), and still didn't get a fully charged revenged, which makes no sense to me and should be adjusted. Same logic should apply to the neutral bash : increase revenge feed of the bashes, especially when they guarantee 28 damage.

Anyways, that's it for now, thank you for reading if you have reached this point ! I think my thoughts aren't 100% clear yet, but I believe the key points I mentionned should be the ones that Ubi prioritizes next.

If you have any ideas yourself, don't hesitate to post them in the comments, have a good day/night everyone !

I agree with pretty much all of what you’re saying, its good information and really pinpoints the issues with Gryphon. The kick mixup, to me, is actually fun to play against and predict. The damage could afford to come down some, I find failing to dodge a single external kick in a gank usually leads to half my health being deleted whilst not feeding as much revenge as normal. Also, the heavy side dodge is too safe with the GB invulnerability and low risk high reward associated with it. I find myself never being able to have an offense because Im always having to bait out the side dodge heavy and when I do parry it, I get my light and start my chain but they go straight back into the side dodge heavy immediately during the second attack of my chain. It would be understandable if I could feint to GB after my confirmed light but that just doesn’t exist. Its the same story with Kensei’s swift strike, and personally I believe these attacks should be light parries to discourage spammy safe playstyles.

[Knight_Raime]

-sigh-

1) Warden and conq have side dodge bashes. If you are referring to attacks as a generalistic term then those are attacks. If you mean parryable to define an attack your point is still off because dodge bashes are better tools than dodge attacks. The GB vulnerability on Gryphon's dodge attack is 400ms which is not only comparable to other great dodge attacks but pretty fair as a value overall. Heros like JJ have a longer vulnerability because of the mix up potential. Gryphon's is an unfeintable low damage heavy that has zero mix up potential. It doesn't need addressing.


2) Yeahhhh no. It's 600ms which makes it reactable. He needs a decent neutral bash since his kit has zero pressure outside of finishers. I hardly see how using other worse off/bad designed heros is evidence that a properly designed hero needs nerfing. If Gryphon doesn't chain off his neutral bash it's a reactionary punish for GB. Just on a slightly tighter timing compared to his kick. It's more in line with say conq or warlord's headbutt. It's chain options are also reactable as well. And since it has no armor it likely won't see use mid team fight or anti gank. It's fine.


3) I'm not reading that massive wall of text that is barely understandable. Kick's reward is fine. It's directly comparable to shao and BP just flipped. Gryphon's entire chain finisher mix up regardless of what you use can have multiple options trumped by things most heros have access to. Even if his mix up was actually strong you're still looking at gryphon risking as much damage as he can potentially dish out in a vast majority of situations. Even if it's not a perfect 1:1 ratio in the damage department if you consider the rest of the attributes of his mix up options and compare them to others it's on the weaker side. His kick could be nerfed to 25-26 damage. But that's not needed and any lower would basically make the move not worth throwing pretty much ever (ala nobushi.)


4) His stamina consumption is fine. Nothing he has in his kit is strong enough to warrant bigger costs. Especially given a hero who has to go through his entire chain to actually stand a chance of opening his opponent.


5) You didn't read revenge tags properly or lack the understanding of how revenge works. There's nothing abnormal about the revenge Gryphon gives as it is exactly the same as every other hero.

[King_of_Xibalba]

Yeah I do think he is very balanced, and his bash from neutral is as reactable as the shove of Lawbro and more reactable than headbutt of Warlord, for the stamina I´m not sure I don´t feel he is "opressive" just that he is a tad bit on the "i can do more than you" side...but perhaps is as you said cause he actually needs that much to open someone.

[Maxime_Qc-]

Why do gryphon say jinjonishobou like kensei... i just heard him speak japanese wtf

[MrBdur]

Why do gryphon say jinjonishobou like kensei... i just heard him speak japanese wtf

You reeaaally don't pay attention...