Gryphon is really strong | Forums

[PanzerShrekonin]

maybe PK was super buffed but now she is only better than shinobi...I started to main her when she was nerfed so heavily that no one used them in my matches so I was curious why and started to play with her, almost 1 and a half years before I can erase most gryphons with her in 4vs4 and duels, is just a matter of knowing when to dodge, comparing her with him is like comparing orange to apples, she is right now among the three most weak heroes. He can be defeated once you study his mixes but the error is to think this is a REACTION game...it was, but not anymore, griphon is easier to read than BP or conqu or Astrea.

PK was extremely broken when the beta for the game came out and she remained strong for... at least a few months. I think it was even longer than that. Wow this game has been going on for four+ years... time flies.

Anyways. Yea anyone with a decent dodge attack can handle Gryphons kick no problem. The other problem is that his kick is either a free heavy or a light attack if hes smart. Either way, he's going to risk a heavy attack unless he throws out the undodable light. Its a mix up and a VERY VERY strong one at that. And should you read the kick wrong and he goes for the light. He basically resets the fight which is in HIS advantage. His Iframes are fantastic and he does alot of damage and is very quick.

I won't say that he's out right broken like PK or Shinobi was at their releases. Shinobi was ridiculous at release but unfort, they overnerfed him. In all honesty, I rather Gryphon not be nerfed but the other characters be buffed in return. Always buff instead of nerf. The power creep is insane and alot of the season 1/2 characters are just left behind. Kensei is the only one of the S1 characters imo that is top tier. Kensei is one of the few characters I think that handles gryphon extremely well, but take a law or a highlander for example. They just get left behind in the dust in comparison.

As for easier to read? Eh. I won't say that. BP is very easy to read. They love to spam their all block if they can afford it or use their lights into bash. Its very easy to read because of the lack of mix up. Conq? Eh. Easy to read. They just bash all the time. Astrea? Whats Astrea? Is that the Warmonger?

As for PK being among the bottom 3 weakest heroes... Eh I won't go that far but she def has fallen greatly. I no longer actually scream when I fight them. I, jokingly, said that I had PKSD way back before the nerfs to her. Peacekeepers were seen in almost every game, their lightt spam was godlike and they did a massive amount of damage with their bleeds. This was when you could guardbreak after a parry so she just stacked the three bleed did a few lights and backed away, rinse and repeat. She wasn't so great in a 4 v 4 but in a duel? She roflstomped the competition.

For me? The three weakest would be Shinobi, Raider, Warlord. And I guess I have to say that PK is very close to that. I'll replace Raider with PK I suppose but the top four is that for sure.

[King_of_Xibalba]

Well I don`t have many problems with any of the s tiers chars at reading, but for example at ranked master and great masters they are much more hard to read than the rest of the roster, not to mention, increased skill of rivals(at reading and to a lesser extent reactions of gifted individuals) conq reads (neutral bash,feinted heavy bash,bash after light ,side dodge followed by heavy, side dodge bash with light follow or side dodge on red) with his added super defensive option select is a nightmare, BP can trick you with the bash spam or a dash forwrd to grab you when you dodge to anticipate, astrea when she is going to do a delayed bash canceled for an attemp a gb/heavy etc. That kind of tricks that make s tiers S tiers, thank god backdodge shoulder bash will cease to exist (it seems) thats why I said compared to gryphon they are harder to read. I think is just a matter of adaptation, he is very new, all in all for me he is a A- or B+.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

PK was extremely broken when the beta for the game came out and she remained strong for... at least a few months. I think it was even longer than that. Wow this game has been going on for four+ years... time flies.

Anyways. Yea anyone with a decent dodge attack can handle Gryphons kick no problem. The other problem is that his kick is either a free heavy or a light attack if hes smart. Either way, he's going to risk a heavy attack unless he throws out the undodable light. Its a mix up and a VERY VERY strong one at that. And should you read the kick wrong and he goes for the light. He basically resets the fight which is in HIS advantage. His Iframes are fantastic and he does alot of damage and is very quick.

I won't say that he's out right broken like PK or Shinobi was at their releases. Shinobi was ridiculous at release but unfort, they overnerfed him. In all honesty, I rather Gryphon not be nerfed but the other characters be buffed in return. Always buff instead of nerf. The power creep is insane and alot of the season 1/2 characters are just left behind. Kensei is the only one of the S1 characters imo that is top tier. Kensei is one of the few characters I think that handles gryphon extremely well, but take a law or a highlander for example. They just get left behind in the dust in comparison.

As for easier to read? Eh. I won't say that. BP is very easy to read. They love to spam their all block if they can afford it or use their lights into bash. Its very easy to read because of the lack of mix up. Conq? Eh. Easy to read. They just bash all the time. Astrea? Whats Astrea? Is that the Warmonger?

As for PK being among the bottom 3 weakest heroes... Eh I won't go that far but she def has fallen greatly. I no longer actually scream when I fight them. I, jokingly, said that I had PKSD way back before the nerfs to her. Peacekeepers were seen in almost every game, their lightt spam was godlike and they did a massive amount of damage with their bleeds. This was when you could guardbreak after a parry so she just stacked the three bleed did a few lights and backed away, rinse and repeat. She wasn't so great in a 4 v 4 but in a duel? She roflstomped the competition.

For me? The three weakest would be Shinobi, Raider, Warlord. And I guess I have to say that PK is very close to that. I'll replace Raider with PK I suppose but the top four is that for sure.

Pk would easily be the weakest hero if Shinobi wouldn't be in the game.

The fact you mentioned dodge attacks to handle the kick shows how little you understand. You should never use a dodge attack against gryp chain finisher mixup, you get a better punish by simply dodging into guardbreak, and the dodge attack does not do anything against the undodgeable attack.

You basically make a read:

Kick->Dodge and gb
Light finisher->Parry

It won't get more simple than that.


P.S.: I did not read your entire post, but oh God, Warlord in the bottom 3... You have zero idea about balance.

[MrBdur]

PK was extremely broken when the beta for the game came out and she remained strong for... at least a few months. I think it was even longer than that. Wow this game has been going on for four+ years... time flies.

Anyways. Yea anyone with a decent dodge attack can handle Gryphons kick no problem. The other problem is that his kick is either a free heavy or a light attack if hes smart. Either way, he's going to risk a heavy attack unless he throws out the undodable light. Its a mix up and a VERY VERY strong one at that. And should you read the kick wrong and he goes for the light. He basically resets the fight which is in HIS advantage. His Iframes are fantastic and he does alot of damage and is very quick.

I won't say that he's out right broken like PK or Shinobi was at their releases. Shinobi was ridiculous at release but unfort, they overnerfed him. In all honesty, I rather Gryphon not be nerfed but the other characters be buffed in return. Always buff instead of nerf. The power creep is insane and alot of the season 1/2 characters are just left behind. Kensei is the only one of the S1 characters imo that is top tier. Kensei is one of the few characters I think that handles gryphon extremely well, but take a law or a highlander for example. They just get left behind in the dust in comparison.

As for easier to read? Eh. I won't say that. BP is very easy to read. They love to spam their all block if they can afford it or use their lights into bash. Its very easy to read because of the lack of mix up. Conq? Eh. Easy to read. They just bash all the time. Astrea? Whats Astrea? Is that the Warmonger?

As for PK being among the bottom 3 weakest heroes... Eh I won't go that far but she def has fallen greatly. I no longer actually scream when I fight them. I, jokingly, said that I had PKSD way back before the nerfs to her. Peacekeepers were seen in almost every game, their lightt spam was godlike and they did a massive amount of damage with their bleeds. This was when you could guardbreak after a parry so she just stacked the three bleed did a few lights and backed away, rinse and repeat. She wasn't so great in a 4 v 4 but in a duel? She roflstomped the competition.

For me? The three weakest would be Shinobi, Raider, Warlord. And I guess I have to say that PK is very close to that. I'll replace Raider with PK I suppose but the top four is that for sure.

Three weakest are Shinobi Warlord and Raider???? WHAT?!?!?

You think PK is stronger than WARLORD and RAIDER?!? WHAAAAAAAAT!!!???!!!???

Three weakest heroes are easily Shinobi, PK, and Nuxia. My god.

Both Raider and Warlord are quite strong so you must just be really bad at using those 2.

[PanzerShrekonin]

Or you're just bad at using PK? The same arguement can be said towards you too. It's my opinion on the weakest based off of playing against them, how many times they are used in my games, and other factors.

I don't see Warlords. I dont see Raiders. I don't see PK's. I see more Shinobi's than the others but I also recognize that he's weak.

[PanzerShrekonin]

Pk would easily be the weakest hero if Shinobi wouldn't be in the game.

The fact you mentioned dodge attacks to handle the kick shows how little you understand. You should never use a dodge attack against gryp chain finisher mixup, you get a better punish by simply dodging into guardbreak, and the dodge attack does not do anything against the undodgeable attack.

You basically make a read:

Kick->Dodge and gb
Light finisher->Parry

It won't get more simple than that.


P.S.: I did not read your entire post, but oh God, Warlord in the bottom 3... You have zero idea about balance.

Except its not a read. It's a 50/50. You can see that hes going for a kick but you don't know if he's going to throw a light or not. You go for guard break after the kick and you get hit with a light. He doesn't and you don't get a guard break. Thats not a read.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Maybe Warlord is weaker than pk on bronze tear. It is like if you give one monkey a sword, and the other a rocketlauncher, it is more dumb luck than actual strenght. So maybe Warlord is weak on your level.

50/50 IS a read. You must read the patterns, and decide which attack he is going for.

[PanzerShrekonin]

Maybe Warlord is weaker than pk on bronze tear. It is like if you give one monkey a sword, and the other a rocketlauncher, it is more dumb luck than actual strenght. So maybe Warlord is weak on your level.

50/50 IS a read. You must read the patterns, and decide which attack he is going for.

No. A 50/50 is not a read. His playstyle, his pattern of playing and all is a read but the move itself is not.

And I dont play at Bronze Tier but Warlord is non-existant. I have not seen one in a very long time outside of my meme game where I just charge to push people off cliffs while listening to the NFL theme song((Pain train))


Actually, I guess I technically do play at Bronze Tier since I dont play ranked. Lmao.

[MCBooma16]

Three weakest are Shinobi Warlord and Raider???? WHAT?!?!?

You think PK is stronger than WARLORD and RAIDER?!? WHAAAAAAAAT!!!???!!!???

Three weakest heroes are easily Shinobi, PK, and Nuxia. My god.

Both Raider and Warlord are quite strong so you must just be really bad at using those 2.

I would actually argue to say Nuxia isn't too weak. She's been used in comp with varying degrees of success in the Dominion Series, and can do well with a coordinated team.

I would also argue to say Raider isn't as strong as some people make him out to be, too. Definitely not weak like PK or Shinobi, but he does have very slow heavies, a slow and easily-interuptable neutral zone UB that does meager damage and uses lots of stam, no universal option-select, and a fairly easy-to-handle mixup game. He also has no major openers.

The storming tap only chains to finishing attacks, so it makes it somewhat difficult to keep a decent chain going without hard feints.

Good things are Raider can chain an enhanced, UB zone after any attack in the chain to help confuse some people, he can SF to GB from any heavy and zone, he has a forward-dodge GB.

HA on all chained heavies.

He can option select HL kick/grab mixup with a side dodge storming tap.

Other than that, he lacks any special and safe tools that can help in many situations like the other comp heroes such as WL, Kensei, or BP. Against an experienced opponent, it's actually not too difficult to shut Raider down.

In a gank I'm usually forced to use neutral zones. It's inefficient, and even if I feint to GB the opponent can mis-time the parry, causing me to bounce off. Just the long, weird timing of it, I get more GB bounces than anything. With the neutral zone costing like 40% stam and only dealing 22dmg, and being as slow as it is, it's a highly inefficient ganking tool. Unfortunately, it's the only UB he has from neutral. Chained zones are better with a near 60% damage increase, but you need to space properly to whiff an attack to get a chained zone. This ends up being enough time for people to distance themselves, as the chained zone has less 'chase' and tracking than the neutral zone. The neutral and chained zones put you in really bad recovery, too.

So, his external pressure is only decent.
But, all his hitboxes are good, and his GB punish can be 27 to 38 damage if near a wall, which is pretty flexible and above average for a GB punish. With a coordinated team, Raider GB charge to wall can be devastating.
Without a wall, you're guarenteed punishes can be a light for 15dmg or a neutral zone for 22dmg. I think Raider is one of the only heroes that can't get a normal heavy attack off for a GB punish. The neutral zone acts like it, but does less damage than most heavies.

All in all, he has good tools, but not enough to make him amazing. He doesn't have enough good tools to keep him on par with other characters. His external pressure is decent, his neutral zone is inefficient, and his GB punish without a wall sucks. Kensei, for example, has a much more useful dodge attack and has a neutral 50/50. He also has a forward-dodge deflect to guarentee a GB to heavy. Not to mention an option-select and an overall good zone clear in general. Raider doesn't have quite that level of versatility, which holds him back. He has to stall more instead of actually fight in an antigank, and has to rely on trading to get damage. His damage is too low to reliably trade too many attacks, and his attacks are just too slow.

[Knight_Raime]

Pk would easily be the weakest hero if Shinobi wouldn't be in the game.

The fact you mentioned dodge attacks to handle the kick shows how little you understand. You should never use a dodge attack against gryp chain finisher mixup, you get a better punish by simply dodging into guardbreak, and the dodge attack does not do anything against the undodgeable attack.

You basically make a read:

Kick->Dodge and gb
Light finisher->Parry

It won't get more simple than that.


P.S.: I did not read your entire post, but oh God, Warlord in the bottom 3... You have zero idea about balance.

Actually going for a dodge attack if you have one is a smart idea to do since it beats out basically everything Gryphon can do finisher wise. It's just not optimal from a damage standpoint.
Though those without a dodge attack can make a read if they think the mix up will be kick or feint to gb/delayed gb input which covers only slightly less options than a dodge attack does.

Or you're just bad at using PK? The same arguement can be said towards you too. It's my opinion on the weakest based off of playing against them, how many times they are used in my games, and other factors.

I don't see Warlords. I dont see Raiders. I don't see PK's. I see more Shinobi's than the others but I also recognize that he's weak.

I disagree with Goat's idea of PK being comparably weak to Shinobi but I feel compelled to point out why you see what you see.
Raider stopped being an average game pick after they gutted his storming tap. He still has some great value in a team comp there are just better options.
Warlord isn't used because his strengths (aside from his overtuned crashing charge) are not abusable. Warlord is a near mandatory pick in comps. It's actually just a case of the general populace not knowing how to use him effectively. PK had nothing to offer that other heros can't already do and more. Shinobi is a favorite low tier pick because average players do not know how to deal with his tools. He's not picked in ranked because the busted things he still retains are not valuable enough to replace any actual good picks in comps.

No. A 50/50 is not a read. His playstyle, his pattern of playing and all is a read but the move itself is not.

And I dont play at Bronze Tier but Warlord is non-existant. I have not seen one in a very long time outside of my meme game where I just charge to push people off cliffs while listening to the NFL theme song((Pain train))


Actually, I guess I technically do play at Bronze Tier since I dont play ranked. Lmao.

Please don't use terms you do not know. 50/50's are attacks of nearly if not exactly equal value (this has some wiggle room for debate,) are not reactable, and cannot be trumped by one or more options. Essentially speaking If I can toss a zone out to beat both options then it's not a 50/50. Gryphon's chain finisher mix up (and this for the sake of argument contains kick, delayed GB input to skip kick, heavy/light finisher, heavy feint to GB) all have options available to the entire cast to beat multiple of those options.

Players with dodge attacks trump the entire mix up. You will punish the kick. You will interrupt delayed GB input and feint into GB. And the dodge will I frame through the committed to heavy. If the dodge attack happens to be on the same side as the attack it's deflected. The undodgable light itself is only actually valuable if you toss it from the top because this forces the person with the dodge attack to dodge forward which avoids nothing else. However. Because this is easily known they just make the read you'll do that and stand there. Or don't and eat the light. Because it's just a light it's weak damage. And it's a finisher. Meaning it puts Gryphon at frame disadvantage.

Players without a dodge attack can utilize a zone on a read. This will trump delayed gb input and heavy feint to gb. Because it would be a zone option select it will be done from the top. Thus eliminating using the undodgable light. Meaning gryphon's only options from this scenario is his kick or a committed to heavy. However that's a simple read for the defender to make. So Gryphon cannot rely on that as his main mix up options.

Finally even ignoring that stuff if you have standard guard and are not named Valk you have the option to block in one direction but dodge in another. This will beat a committed to heavy and also avoid the kick. More than likely the guard would go top and you'd dodge to a side. Which eliminates the undodgable as an option. There are heros who still retain superior block on dodge as well. Meaning gryphon can get punished from that.

And this is all just information without even touching that the undodgable light is a light parry punish and kick nets a reactionary GB or considering rolls at all. I have to give credit to Ubi for something though. you can't stuff the entire mix up like you can with some other heros.