Gryphon, a new braindead hero main in Ubisoft ? | Forums

[Gaser.]

If you're not complaining about the kit it sure didn't seem like that with some of your choices of words. Especially "those who spam kick win." As if you can actually spam chain finishing moves.
Shove isn't a gank tool. It barely counts as a decent tool for mix ups. I'd liken it to be a peel tool but it's range isn't good enough. Generally speaking you don't use bashes in ganks/team fights unless you're attempting to peel or setup for a heavy for an ally to get an execution. There are exceptions like Cent. But usually the revenge gain isn't worth it. That being said I don't know any Gryphon gank combos yet so we will see.

When recognizing feat strength you have to acknowledge how it's going to effect multiple players. This is also important for telling if a specific move is over tuned damage wise or not. In the case of healing you have to account for total health swing and not just the individual damage. This is why Goki's hug was nerfed and why Shaman's bite needed to be nerfed. Sure, if you only do say 20 damage that's only like a heavies worth. But if you also heal for 20 that's a 40 health swing. Which is a significant chunk of a hero's HP pool.

Gryphon has OP feats because of these reasons. His unique T1 is fine. His T2 has a relatively short cooldown, can't be interrupted and heals multiple people for 20 HP. Healing effects usually cleanses DoT as well. So these greatly hurt people like PK and Nobushi. We nerfed second wind specifically because of the huge HP swing it did on top of not being stoppable. Think of Gryphon's T2 being a semi nerfed version of second wind that has the ability to effect multiple people.

His T3 is fast enough to be used off of a heavy parry and is near instant. IIRC it does 30 damage and heals for 20 ish hp to multiple people. That's a 50 health swing off of a parry. Or really any animation locked situation. that's Absurd. And then his T4 is a bomb that can do 50 damage to multiple people and heals for a total of 50hp to multiple people. Now combine these frankly insane health swings with the fact that multiple can exist on a team at one time.

Finally i'd attribute anyone's success with Gryphon to be almost entirely based on the fact that he's new. There's not a single thing from his kit that's even remotely remarkable that would make him a pick over other top characters in team comps. He'd be entirely mandatory because of his feats. Which is exactly how WM became a comp pick. The "easy" thing about him is his finishers/parries having HA and his attacks having good hitboxes. This means an average player doesn't really have to worry about optimal usage or target switching very much for optimal damage. This doesn't make him poorly balanced/designed. Just means people who loved mashing out attacks via raider chains now have another character to do so that also happens to have bashes and good dodge attacks.

His UB/undodgable mix up is both riskier and less worth the payout than BP's. I'd probably take Valk over him if Gryphon's feats weren't busted. That being said I was looking forward to having an exceedingly average hero release as we've almost never had that. But the devs constant poor design with feats stops that.

Don’t know but am I the only one who thinks healing feats should not remove damage over time?

The healing zone sure but I just don’t think that it’s good for healing feats.

[Knight_Raime]

We talk about the new hero here, you anger issues about lawbringers current state don’t belong here.

Also lb does not have a neutral bash but I think you mean the combo bash, there is a difference.

Now then the door is over there.

Fox is just repeating the same stuff we and others have already debated with them on. It's useless to discuss a topic with someone that refuses to educate themselves.

EDIT: as per your response to me no you're not the only one. It's been a complaint for a long time that heal feats shouldn't cleanse as well. It's a hilariously strong thing to be able to do. But because it's a very "niche" thing it should be reserved entirely for points you control. It doesn't belong on feats.

[AbuZnood]

"This doesn't make him poorly balanced/designed. Just means people who loved mashing out attacks via raider chains now have another character to do so that also happens to have bashes and good dodge attack"

Soooo you admit he's a braindead hero, or can be used as braindead (on low and average level of play, at least), VICTORY ! (because that was my assessment at first, not that he is op).

No but seriously. I've never thought about the balance between heal, damage, and people affected balance in feats, that's interesting. From this point of view his feat are indeed as op as warmonger ones if used well, but until now I didn't noticed it being gamebreaking like warmo T4 in breah for example. Maybe you are right, maybe he is new and so people need to adapt to his kit. I'm fairly new to the game, about a week ago I thought that the shugo's hug was broken, and the funny thing is that I went to the training and learned how to avoid it and punish it like 2 days before they annouced his nerf (well rework, it's not a nerf honestly they gave him a lot of new moves) .
But to come back to gryphon, he is clearly not "op", but difficult to read for sure.

You said something and @Gaser said something is the same spirit :

" "those who spam kick win." As if you can actually spam chain finishing moves. "

"The kick guarantees a heavy, tho it requires that he has thrown at least two attacks"

Indeed, BUT :

- The second light is guaranteed in any direction (fairly easy to time)
- Dodging seem to count as a first attack because evey sides of his dodge attacks (forward too) can be followed by a kick (that's something I've found in the training, though I don't see much people using this yet, maybe I shouldn't let this info leak lol)
--> seems like a very quick to obtain, free "finisher" to me

So he has a lot of pressure potential since he can punish any early dodge with a guardbreak. He is clearly not OP but has easy access to a lot of damage for sure. But I don't feel screwed when fighting him like when fighting some of the Wu Lin heroes for instance, that is true.

Also sorry for my choice of words but I'm not a native english speaker, so if I look salty or complaining, I apologize that's not the case. My only complain about this game is how certain heroes like wardlord (which I main atm) feel outdated compared to the more recent heroes, so it would be nice to see Ubi going further than making shoulder bash even more broken, giving undodgeable to Nobushi and unblockable to PK (which she needed obviously, but as a warlord, I just feel insulted that the 50kg little girl can land and feint unblockables while I can't)


***FoxyVi
I know it hurt. Lawbringer is one of these heroes that will get the proper love they deserved I guess.

[I4mTheUnderGod]

Fox is just repeating the same stuff we and others have already debated with them on. It's useless to discuss a topic with someone that refuses to educate themselves.

EDIT: as per your response to me no you're not the only one. It's been a complaint for a long time that heal feats shouldn't cleanse as well. It's a hilariously strong thing to be able to do. But because it's a very "niche" thing it should be reserved entirely for points you control. It doesn't belong on feats.

I dont understand why Nobushi cant Heal She is a support hero she gets left out of everything hp damage and support feats when shes a support class.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I dont understand why Nobushi cant Heal She is a support hero she gets left out of everything hp damage and support feats when shes a support class.

I don't think she is designed as support. She is an antiganker and mid player mainly.

[VinDieseI69]

Since they’re normalizing tanky heroes with extremely fast and mobile move sets can we buff assassins since they have restrictions and disadvantages for no reason now

[Knight_Raime]

@Abu

Technically any hero can be played braindead. I did say this doesn't speak to his design at all though. And yes you need to view how things can potentially effect multiple players as the main mode of which the game is balanced around is dominion. Gryphon's feats are not as over tuned as WM's were/are yes. But that's because she gets a T4 on her T1 spot and can isolate anyone mid fight to allow for ez ganking. It would be very hard to top how horribly designed her feats are. Still. Gryphon's need adjustment.

All of Gryphon's shortcuts to his finishers are:

-Same side light after a first light
-any side dodge or forward dodge attack
-Shove since it guarantees a chain light
-heavy after a GB since those are considered second hits in chains

All of the above things (minus GB punish obviously) are reactable. Neutral lights are still reactable. All of his dodge attacks are reactable and none of them are feintable. and shove is reactable at 600ms. So even though he has several options to his kick none of them are oppressive. Then you have to look at the risk versus reward for both heros. If you are fighting gryphon you're looking at taking 14 damage from the undodgable light or 28 from the kick. If you are Grpyhon and you are going for the kick and it misses it will give a reactionary GB. Which is at minimum 24 damage. So the risk vs reward in terms of damage numbers is nearly identical.

Then you add onto the fact that his kick has next to none side tracking if any tracking at all. And that his finisher heavies can be rolled pretty safely. Meaning it's not apart of the mix up you have to deal with in a single pick scenario. As i've mentioned before they can bring down the damage on kick a little to make the risk vs reward a bit more inline. But it doesn't need major nerfing.

If you consider Black prior's mix up it's a lot more wonky. BP is much safer since it's inconsistent to try and punish his bash for most of the playerbase. And his mix up of UB or undodgable heavies not only give a lot more damage but are both feintable. Compared to Gryphon's undodgable light. Making BP's entire mid chain mix up much safer to use.

You have no need to apologize. I will readily admit my years of being on this forum site and other fh related discussions has made me jaded when dealing with the general player base. It is me who owes an apology for being aggressive so early.

[Okt0g00N]

To be honest It took a bit longer for me to see "gryphon op" complaint threads than I thought. It's actually quite impressive how no matter how much the game improves or the community grows into something more you still have complaints like this. But enough bashing the poster.

Gryphon's kick is locked to finishers like Valk's kit. Similarly to Valk's there are a few shortcuts to the mix up. Learning to recognize those and then establish the pattern your opponent plays is how you're going to beat them and grow as a player. The bash might be unreactable, but it awards a GB regardless of your timing unlike Valk's sweep where you can't punish it with a GB.

As for his neutral bash it's 600ms. If you're struggling to make a reaction to something of that speed at this point the fault is only on yourself. Gryphon from a mechanical standpoint is far less oppressive compared to Warmonger. And Certainly a fair bit weaker compared to both her and Black prior. If it weren't for his overtuned feats I really don't think we'd see him in competitive play. The only really nice thing about him from a mechanical standpoint is instant HA on his parries with his very generous hitboxes.

Though i'd expect the common folk to be happy with Gryphon since he's basically everything people ever wanted from LB.

28 damage after kick, even warden doesnțt get that much on a fully charged bash albeit it being feintable
or look at BP, same bash speed, incredible damage difference

[Knight_Raime]

28 damage after kick, even warden doesnțt get that much on a fully charged bash albeit it being feintable
or look at BP, same bash speed, incredible damage difference

If you're going to make a comparison between numbers you need to look at the risk/reward situation between the heros.

BP and shaolin have the similar mix ups. BP gets 28 damage from his heavies in the mix up and less off of his bash. But his mix up is much safer. Gryphons mix up Is much less safe. But gets more off of a bash and less off of the other mix up option.

Gryphons kit aside from his feats are incredibly balanced.

[TrondurIGotu]

Pretty much. These are the only heroes they can add to the game anymore. Its been out for over 5 years at this point and trying to attract more players is dumb imo. They really should let the game die. I have to give them credit as I have not seen a game supported this well in a long time, but they way they are doing it makes a lot of veteran players unhappy. They only way to get any attack in now-a-days is to bash for a confirmed attack. There is literally no other way to play at this point since most players just mash heavy when the color red hits their eyes.