1. #11
    @Waken

    It's inappropriate and unprofessional to blatantly copy and paste another forum member's thoughts and state them as part of your own stand-alone analysis, especially on a thread requesting active feedback on any of the changes.

    Instead of wasting time and space you may refer details and thoughts of other member's posts instead of copying someone elses.
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  2. #12
    Warden: Removal of back dodge sb is a GREAT nerf. shouldve happened long ago.. Damage is overtuned (lik 35 dmg on finishers? why?) shoulder bash chain after finisher is unnecessary. Why is he able to do that and bombard the enemy with unblockables, yet others cant do that? Also the hit stun on his top heavies are too big, after a successful top heavy, the next sb cannot be interrupted with a light. Everything else on him looks fine for me.
    Peacekeeper: The +5dmg is overtuned and unnecessary. Why is she doing more dmg then everybody else? We don't want s1 pk again. Take from the bleed dmg, add it to the raw and slow the tick speed on her bleed. That would fix her problems. UB on bleed is a nice addition tho.
    Shugoki: HA removal from hug was a mistake because there is no point rolling from him anymore.(so no point to a roll catcher) Everybody can just zone option select him. Side dodge headbutt should confirm or do damage. (like 9-10)
    Nobushi: Kick speed should be increased to 500ms to be a great mixup. More chaining options would be great.
    I guess thats all. Pretty nice changes overall but needs just a bit of tweaking.
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  3. #13
    MrBdur's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by MCBooma16 Go to original post
    @Waken

    It's inappropriate and unprofessional to blatantly copy and paste another forum member's thoughts and state them as part of your own stand-alone analysis, especially on a thread requesting active feedback on any of the changes.

    Instead of wasting time and space you may refer details and thoughts of other member's posts instead of copying someone elses.
    I just noticed this... Waken should face some kind of penalty for that copy and paste. I hope you reported them.
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  4. #14
    Ok guys, let's be clear, I personally am a disgusted with the changes they put in the Warden, and in my opinion they don't solve his problems. Now it looks like his transformation to shoulder master is complete.

    Here are my ideas for making Warden a sword master and not a shoulder master.

    PURPOSES OF THIS REWORK:
    1. First and foremost, to have fun!
    2. Make the Warden use more his sword than his shoulder.
    3. Each of Warden's Attacks (except Shoulder Bash) can now chain to Shoulder Bash. I don't agree with this change at all I don't want to see Warden become a shoulder master. This change must be removed.
    4. Side Finishers are now 900ms and 35dmg. What??? The damage is too high, but also too slow. I would like it to damage less but be faster. First of all, the better hitbox attack shouldn't have a higher damage, there should always be a trade-off between trajectory and damage.Must be left at 30dmg at 800ms.

    GENERAL CORRECTIONS:
    - Remove back dodge shoulder bash. In this way the only 3 ways he can use his Shoulder Bash are these:
    1. (Forward Dodge or Side Dodge) + GB = Shoulder Bash.
    2. (Light Opener or Double Light) + GB = Shoulder Bash.
    3. Light Opener + Chained Top Light + GB = Shoulder Bash.

    - "Side Heavy Finisher" and "Side Heavy Opener" trajectories have been improved. (We all agree with this change.)

    - "Side Heavy Finishers" are not Unblockable but have hyperarmour. Must be left at 30dmg at 800ms.

    - Zone Attack: the stamina cost of the zone attack to 40stm (from 60) consumes too much for only 13 dmg. This is correct because Warmonger also has the same zone attack as the Warden but uses less stamina (40stm).

    - Chained top light attack inflicts 14 damage (from 13)

    - Crushing Counterstrike now deals 16 damage (from 20), but always guarantees a top light chain for a total of 30 damage.

    - Chained Side Light speed has been reduced to 500ms (from 600ms),and its damage is reduced to 13 (from 14dmg).

    - Change the animation of the second light attack to a sword lunge. (I've never understood why Warden doesn't also use the tip of the sword, I always see him attacking with a sword slash, never with the tip). (To give an example of the animation of the sword lunge: like the "Light Opener" of the hero Zhanhu).

    - Give him new attack chains: Double Light is now considered not as two separate attacks but as a single attack, so after Double Light he can chain a light attack followed by a heavy attack.
    Let me give you an example:
    1. Double Light => Chained Light => Heavy Finisher
    In this way, after the Double Light you can choose whether to use the Shoulder Bash, or continue with the attack chain mentioned above.
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  5. #15
    Didn't know about this thread. I guess it won't hurt doubling my post from suggestions to here


    Well, his unblockable side heavies are the only thing that is solidly neat about this rework. Both appicability wise and as a step into turning him into a swordmaster.

    -SB after heavy openers sounds as useless on paper as it plays in the duels.
    -SB after heavy finishers is kinda okay, but not too good given stamina expenses.
    -SB after zone can surprise people for now, but I expect they'd learn to anticipate it after zone if this will get implemented. But most importantly, you won't be able to do much because of the stamina cost of the zone attack.

    These (IMO) dubious changes are trying to play with his shoulder bash game anyway. Warden lost 1 sb move, but gained 2 sb moves (not that it makes him stronger, since quality it important). I don't think I've ever read a post about someone wanting to see more SB on Warden, neither from Warden players, nor from those who play against him. Additionally, every person I came into contact in duels and discussed (alright, complained about) Warden's light attack agreed that his light attacks are underperforming and some of them also added they'd like to see the light attacks improved. Some even in the context of saying it's too easy for them to light parry Warden.
    I'd be happy if Ubisoft elaborated on the idea of making Warden a swordmaster a bit more. And if they started that by fixing the injutstice that's going on with light attacks.
    I see a few options and they would bring a different extent of improvements.

    In any case, this would be true for all of them:
    - Chained Side Light speed has been reduced to 500ms (from 600ms).

    1) Double side lights are available only after SB.
    Warden gets 12-14 dmg 500-500 ms side lights instead.

    This would simply bring Warden's lights up to the level of other heroes.

    2) Double side lights are now chainable outside of vortex.
    Stamina cost is kept. I.e. 24 stm for more or less the same damage as 2 light attacks from other heroes would do and the chance of messing the double sides up by accidentally moving your hand.

    This would make his lights better than they are now, but weaker compared to other heroes. Could work if option #1 would somehow, magically, be too good to give Warden (which I don't believe, since as I mentioned, option #1 is a almost bare minimum for For Honor hero with technical, but not qualitative exceptions in the form of Zhanhu and Raider; and I doubt warden would ever be stronger than Kensei, so he isn't threatened by the probability of becoming the strongest hero).
    3) Option #1 or #2 with
    - Change the animation of the second light attack to a sword lunge. (I've never understood why Warden doesn't also use the tip of the sword, I always see him attacking with a sword slash, never with the tip). (To give an example of the animation of the sword lunge: like the "Light Opener" of the hero Zhanhu).
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  6. #16
    Also this
    PK feels kinda too strong to play against.

    Nobushi was already one of the most cancerous heroes pre testing grounds.

    Warden still lacks proper lights. And SB after zone or heavy would often be not very stamina effective I think. Neither people who play warden or play against warden want to see more SB in his kit instead of something decent anyway.

    Shugoki was an absolute huggernaut before, but now he still isn't bad. I tried to option select parry him with Warden, half of the time I ended up OOS.
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  7. #17
    MayanKingGaming's Avatar Senior Member
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    PK is very good now, i can do executions, since ccu executions were very scarce. The 5 damage is good for those that say otherwise, i will repeat myself the 100th time, when characters have a bleed mechanic in all the other games the waiting for that damage to be applied is compensated with more damage, slightly or moderate...because hey if not, why i would prefer that over instant damage? unblockables are still slow and telegraphed homever the possibilities of new mixups are the reason it is a very good addition, now you must read every heavy. She is viable now, even in ranked, homever a better flow for dagger cancel is needed cause she lacks any viable opener, lights can be used and dagger cancels but cancels still have frame disadvantage, I guess dodge cancel after dagger cancel is better than nothing.
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  8. #18
    Warden Feedback

    I like the attempt to add some more depth and tools to warden and most of all finally to tackle his bad shape as a 1vX fighter.
    Bashing after heavy finisher grants warden an endless combo, which is usually a thing for heavies such as BP or warlord. Atm the bashing after a finisher or after an opener heavy may surprise some people, but won't serve a good higher purpuse.

    >The changes are not enough to make regular wardens more aggressive<

    One of the main reason for that is simply that the stamina consumption (mostly sb cancels into gb, sb and double side light) are just too high to maintain an variable offense. Hence you naturally have to look for quick burst attack and then make sure to recover stamina. One of issues with warden and their players which probably makes them so defensive overall.

    Secondly Warden's offense is baffling meager and lacking variety. Everything revolves around shoulderbash and double side lights. A normal side light does not serve any purpose. Also btw his combo side light is still 600 ms hence entirely outdated at this point that is embarrassing it still needs to be mentioned.

    His attack pattern kit is so forseeable that the addition of unblockable heavies does not do him many favors. You just wait and see if you have to parry it and that's it. It always comes after the lights. There is no room for surprises like for instance the tech of long delaying the combo heavy on the running attack, which btw now is much more telegraphed due to the sound cue, visual effect and the fact that it's much slower. Slowing down the heavies is a mistake overall too. Clearing minions is now much more ineffective due to the heavies being slower. Warden was already just an ok minion clearer, it does not serve him in 4v4 to make him in those areas worse. Also you might be much more visible on the map (being stuck longer in one place and glowing/making sounds of that unblockable etc) and hence made a target more quickly. If any warden should have 700-766 ms combo heavies.

    900 is ok for top finisher (the animation is still terribly bad btw with the crossing unstable legs that dont support the blow). That was a good improvement.

    Heavy openers can only be utilized quite rarely. Either if the opponent is ready to parry a light attack or if he is very defensive and probably blocking (does not happen often) or from a distance to initiate SB after that or feinting. Feinting is ok, but the rest shows how crippled the move is. I would suggest a softfeint option as hyper armor is sth we would like to see on heavy heavy opener's not vanguards.

    Shoulderbash and other bashes stopping stamina regeneration is cancerous and needs to go. Warden vs warden matches end up in many starring situations due to being forced to regain stamina that constantly is paused by the other side and also consumed fast due to the high costs.

    Cancels into SB after running attack or zone are extremely unclean and do not really add nicely to the fight.

    Cancels into SB after a heavy finisher might put too much pressure on OOS targets after an OOS punish.

    Side heavy finishers doing more damage than top heavy finisher is nuts. It simply beats the purpose of the top attack.

    In team fights warden does not feel like he improved a lot. I could not noticably hit more opponents at once in the situations I set myself up to. Along that comes also the fact that since he does not have hyper armor, the attacks get often interrupted. Warden in generall feels still way too slow, linar and lackluster for teamfights. His mobility is bad and he cannot reposition himself easily due to the lack of tools, basic mobility and forward motion on his moves. SB is usually the move that grants him the option to go places (v-breakthrough unfortunately suffers usually from not working well during target switching but of course is the usual alternative if one has the time for a proper target switch and realigning) but SB is too prone to interuption and leaving warden open for incoming attacks.

    What I suggest for some improvements:

    -I suggest improvements to the heavy opener (maybe a softfeint into a light, a quick transition to an unblockable halfsword thrust or a quick hit with the hilt to the head or sth of that sort. - I really would like to see Warden get away from relying on the way too dull and lackluster feint into guardbreak mechanic. It is just too boring. )
    -I suggest stamina cost reduction
    -I suggest quicker combo heavies that dont need to be unblockable.
    -I suggest alternatively to have a much quicker heavy after one sidelight or even a combo possibility of light heavy light (either way, make it more different in animations and speed, maybe if the finishers will be normal and quicker, make the one after a single side light unblockable)
    - Thus: add more combo possibilities
    -No shoulderbash after running and zone attack
    -improve Crushing counter by making it more powerful in one blow and not guaranting a second light (change the animation back pls to the original but polish that one more, and windmill movement is more realistic and impactful for a powerful counter blow than a halfswording hop)
    -Make top light backstepable
    -Remove or greatly reduce stamina pauses from bashes
    -Add more tools for his team fighting capabilities (possibly more reach? finally fix target switching issues on moves like valiant breakthrough, the quicker combo side heavies would be very benificial for him as well, maybe extent his zone radius a little bit to 200-220° or so. Of course some hyperarmor here and there would help too but I don't think we need it on everyone, more quick and more variable moves would do the trick already I believe in combination of perhaps fixing the trajectory a bit more)
    -The rest is up to you (meaning I am currently indifferent about shoulderbash after a combofinisher. It is good to have as a possibility to extent offense further but it also is extremly potent for abuse and providing people a very bad experience while fighting warden especially while being OOS)
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  9. #19
    when do these changes go live?
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  10. #20
    Originally Posted by Nataleah0409 Go to original post
    when do these changes go live?
    Nobody can say. It depends on our feedback and the statistic data gathered from the test phase. Changes that are universally welcomed usually make it into the game more quickly (maybe with the next greater patch, so in this case mid season patch) others need to be worked on to figure out alternatives. That can take very long and even get to another testing phase. Cents rework after introducing it in the testing grounds initially and having some core issues with his mixup took so long it was not even funny.
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