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  1. #21
    hyper---sniper's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    There's the recalibration station, and coming soon the optimization station.

    Granted, both those should have been in the game from the beginning, IMO. But there's also this misconception that a piece of gear MUST be perfect god-rolled to be useful. Which is outright not true. That's the nature of looters: You use the best you have until you find better.

    But we're actually kind of lucky in The Division, because there's a personal skill aspect to the game. Even if you don't have perfect loot, you can get a LOT done by sheer gamer ability.
    I would agree if the loot worked as it should , and if scaling worked , but in this game loot and scaling is all over the place , no balance , or balance in the wrong areas ..

    Originally Posted by dagrommit Go to original post
    Citation needed. No dev has commented on changes to loot quality since TU11.

    That's how it's supposed to work (which is different from whether it feels rewarding)

    I've noticed people who dump on the game are more likely to get bad loot. Perhaps they should try saying something positive about it more often
    The problem here is not just feeling rewarding , but feeling more powerful .. yes we dump on the game , and if a player takes time to dump on the game it is that they find it BROKEN and want it fixed , players that do not like the game will not even bother logging in to forums and wasting time commenting .. if they do they must have a sad life with nothing better to do..

    Players that come on here dumping on players complaining about bugs etc is the real pain and why the game will never get fixed ,devs can not fix if they do not get dumped on ..

    So the good dumpers is the ones complaining about the game bugs etc ,and the timewasters is the ones that say the game is fine .. and yes the ones that dump on the game go on massives naughty list and get bad loot , that i do believe ..
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  2. #22
    dagrommit's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by hyper---sniper Go to original post
    The problem here is not just feeling rewarding , but feeling more powerful .. yes we dump on the game , and if a player takes time to dump on the game it is that they find it BROKEN and want it fixed , players that do not like the game will not even bother logging in to forums and wasting time commenting .. if they do they must have a sad life with nothing better to do..

    Players that come on here dumping on players complaining about bugs etc is the real pain and why the game will never get fixed ,devs can not fix if they do not get dumped on ..

    So the good dumpers is the ones complaining about the game bugs etc ,and the timewasters is the ones that say the game is fine .. and yes the ones that dump on the game go on massives naughty list and get bad loot , that i do believe ..
    The smiley indicates sarcasm. Having said that, god rolled gear is not going to make players feel more powerful than 90% gear - the differences are just too small. I say this as someone who has builds with and without god-rolled gear.
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  3. #23
    hyper---sniper's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by dagrommit Go to original post
    The smiley indicates sarcasm. Having said that, god rolled gear is not going to make players feel more powerful than 90% gear - the differences are just too small. I say this as someone who has builds with and without god-rolled gear.
    Yes i know , the game will not let players feel powerful this is part of the problem , you get good gear the game adjusts to the gear and it all feels the same ..and this is why we have so many dumping about loot , it is not the rolls on the loot it is the so called balance they have on the game .
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  4. #24
    dagrommit's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by hyper---sniper Go to original post
    Yes i know , the game will not let players feel powerful this is part of the problem , you get good gear the game adjusts to the gear and it all feels the same ..and this is why we have so many dumping about loot , it is not the rolls on the loot it is the so called balance they have on the game .
    *shrug* the devs said long ago that they don't want the game to be "easy", so that's where different difficulty levels come in for those who want a power fantasy.
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  5. #25
    I, and many others, have been saying for the longest time that anyone that plays this game for the loot is certain to be completely dissatisfied. I have also said since day one that RNG in a videogame is not -- and should not be implemented -- such that it is completely random.

    The fact that it has never taken me more than about a week (playing 1-2 hrs per night) to farm for a complete build, to me that indicates they did RNG fairly well. In my experience, I have always found that at any point in time I am playing with a build that is made up almost completely from items that have been "rewarded" as opposed to "looted"

    While the game might now vomit pieces you need for your dream build, if you happen to be working on making a build that leverages the latest new toys you should not have a problem. For example, hunters fury with memento. These pieces are puked in your face throughout the season event. It would be pretty much impossible to put serious time towards the season events and not be able to put together this build. I recently decided to put to pasture my build and playstyle and adopt the latest and greatest gear and a play style that I wouldn't pick in a million years, and I have been having a great time.

    But if you are trying to put together something else, well, that means your chances are lowered -- because the season events are puking things you just don't need. So since the RNG is tilted way in favor of the newest sets, that makes the chance of getting anything else a lot less.

    As gamers, most of us probably have an unhealthy need for instant gratification. If you could bang this game out in a week, and end up in the end game with what I call an "apex" build, that would be a problem. By apex, I mean a build that is so maximized it may never be able to be improved.

    That really is the key problem -- we want the game to provide that kind if instant gratification, and then when we get to that apex build rapidly, now we are bummed because "there is no reason to play" because everything that drops is crap. Because the players hit the ceiling and get bored.

    We just can't have it both ways. We can't expect to achieve an apex build in days or weeks, and also expect there to be no ceiling. That is just an impossible set of expectations. It has to take months and hundreds -- if not thousands -- of hours.

    And when we hit the ceiling, we expect the game to raise that ceiling. We need new gear sets, new weapons, new exotics, etc. And as those are dumped into the game, your apex build of yesterday is no longer an apex build. Now you feel "nerfed", and frustrated because you gave to work all over again to get back to the top.

    My advice to anyone is simple -- be patient. If you are not at an apex build point, don't despair and certainly don't rush it. Instead you should enjoy it. If one piece is all you need to make your build apex, when that piece drops you should have mixed feelings about it. Yeah, because it dropped! Followed by "what now?"

    When you are at one apex build, then the "what now" is either play the game as long as you enjoy it, or try to put together another build. Play with the new toys. Expand your play style a bit. IF one has no interest in doing that, then one really shouldn't wish the apex build comes quickly, because when it does that is pretty much the end of the road.
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  6. #26
    Sircowdog1's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by hyper---sniper Go to original post
    I would agree if the loot worked as it should , and if scaling worked , but in this game loot and scaling is all over the place , no balance , or balance in the wrong areas ..



    The problem here is not just feeling rewarding , but feeling more powerful.
    What do you mean by "if the loot worked as it should"? It's a looter shooter. Loot is going to be random as f*ck all the time. The only reason I can think of to say something like you did is because you have expectations that don't match what the game actually is. You're SUPPOSED to sift through hundreds, or even thousands, of drops to get something perfect or near perfect for a build.

    And Ive been in this argument before. You do not need perfect gear to progress. And while there's some merit to the argument of feeling powerful, The Division games are not a power-fantasy like Diablo or Path of Exile. In some ways they're highly skill-based shooters. Because no amount of gear is going to make a bad player good.

    Not to mention the point of view that "feeling powerful" arises from overcoming very difficult challenges with good builds and good play. That feeling of "You had better gear and abilities than me. Your guns hit harder and you have more armor, but I still beat you!"

    Not that I'm saying the game is perfect. It's got problems, but not insurmountable ones.
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  7. #27
    Originally Posted by godhelpme89 Go to original post
    Hmmmm... could you actually provide proof that someone has said this. No one on this forum ever has a nice thing to say, let alone about rng and loot quality.
    *Sheepishly raises hand*

    I think the RNG is fine, but not because I constantly get items I want/need [I haven't gotten an upgrade to my main builds in months, but they're all awful close to full gRoll], I just understand RNG. The Rolls/Attributes/Talents are independent, so I judge the pieces that drop by the numbers, independent of whether the att/talent is what I desire. Loot drops in line with what the Devs have said over various SOTGs.

    EVERY Looter Shooter has an overwhelming number of threads complaining about the quality of the loot, even TD1 [I went and checked a bunch when I started posting here to see if I was wrong, since I'm new to Looter Shooters]. I started a thread to find out - turns out most people judge loot subjectively, not objectively. For many, if the Loot is not "an upgrade for them", it's trash.

    Take the OP for example. I shared a pick of a Wyvern Chest with 75%HzP, gRoll Skill Damage & Kinetic Momentum last night. That's a full God Roll, talent appropriate chest. They said it was trash [and they just got & trashed three just like it] because they need one with gRoll Skill Damage & gRoll Skill Haste so they can roll WD. This ignores that nobody can tell the difference between 9% vs 10% Skill Damage or 10% vs 12% Skill Haste. Or they could roll a different piece WD if that dropped full gRoll first.

    Double dip with most people not being cognizant of the Negativity Bias, while jumping on SSS.. it's a recipe for complaints.

    Looter Devs know what they're doing. The formula is mostly set in stone, from decades of experimentation. Also, they offer guaranteed quality drops from Rogue Agents [again, objectively based on rolls, not subjectively based on what the player is desiring].

    I get that I'm a weirdo

    Edit: Woot, I'm not alone! What tcarlisle said
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  8. #28
    Originally Posted by mckrackin5324 Go to original post
    Maybe I just don't understand the game. So, I'm asking...

    What would you guys do with this stuff? This is 100% typical of my experience in the game. This is what drops.

    To me, this looks like garbage. What do you think? To me, it makes the game pointless. There are parts I enjoy doing but the loot is pointless. It might as well not drop.


    Petrov Knees are good [rolls are excellent], that's quality with flexibility. More often than not, with an LMG, you're in cover. Explosive Resistance is more effective than most people realize, Repair Skills are helpful for folks who like to park in cover and lay down suppressive LMG fire. Or you can roll one of them off it that doesn't fit your style.

    Hana-U is solid too. I find HzP is helpful on Skill builds because more often than not it's flames that hurt me [since I typically hang back in cover with a skill build]. Skilled eliminates the need for Skill Haste too, so roll the other att to Skill Damage and keep hunting for the minor upgrade.

    Rest? mark as trash, unless you have a niche build or are new [that Airaldi, rolled max WD would work for a build or two I have].

    The better two, trash if you don't use Skilled or LMGs [or favor Contractors when you do].
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  9. #29
    hyper---sniper's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Sircowdog1 Go to original post
    What do you mean by "if the loot worked as it should"? It's a looter shooter. Loot is going to be random as f*ck all the time. The only reason I can think of to say something like you did is because you have expectations that don't match what the game actually is. You're SUPPOSED to sift through hundreds, or even thousands, of drops to get something perfect or near perfect for a build.

    And Ive been in this argument before. You do not need perfect gear to progress. And while there's some merit to the argument of feeling powerful, The Division games are not a power-fantasy like Diablo or Path of Exile. In some ways they're highly skill-based shooters. Because no amount of gear is going to make a bad player good.

    Not to mention the point of view that "feeling powerful" arises from overcoming very difficult challenges with good builds and good play. That feeling of "You had better gear and abilities than me. Your guns hit harder and you have more armor, but I still beat you!"

    Not that I'm saying the game is perfect. It's got problems, but not insurmountable ones.
    The game is BROKEN , Balance is BORKEN , gear sets are BROKEN , servers are BROKEN stuttering junk .. I do not care how good you think you are or make your self out to be the game has BIG problems ..

    And not letting the devs know is just adding to the bugs ..
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  10. #30
    dagrommit's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by tcarlisle2012 Go to original post
    I, and many others, have been saying for the longest time that anyone that plays this game for the loot is certain to be completely dissatisfied. I have also said since day one that RNG in a videogame is not -- and should not be implemented -- such that it is completely random.

    The fact that it has never taken me more than about a week (playing 1-2 hrs per night) to farm for a complete build, to me that indicates they did RNG fairly well. In my experience, I have always found that at any point in time I am playing with a build that is made up almost completely from items that have been "rewarded" as opposed to "looted"

    While the game might now vomit pieces you need for your dream build, if you happen to be working on making a build that leverages the latest new toys you should not have a problem. For example, hunters fury with memento. These pieces are puked in your face throughout the season event. It would be pretty much impossible to put serious time towards the season events and not be able to put together this build. I recently decided to put to pasture my build and playstyle and adopt the latest and greatest gear and a play style that I wouldn't pick in a million years, and I have been having a great time.

    But if you are trying to put together something else, well, that means your chances are lowered -- because the season events are puking things you just don't need. So since the RNG is tilted way in favor of the newest sets, that makes the chance of getting anything else a lot less.

    As gamers, most of us probably have an unhealthy need for instant gratification. If you could bang this game out in a week, and end up in the end game with what I call an "apex" build, that would be a problem. By apex, I mean a build that is so maximized it may never be able to be improved.

    That really is the key problem -- we want the game to provide that kind if instant gratification, and then when we get to that apex build rapidly, now we are bummed because "there is no reason to play" because everything that drops is crap. Because the players hit the ceiling and get bored.

    We just can't have it both ways. We can't expect to achieve an apex build in days or weeks, and also expect there to be no ceiling. That is just an impossible set of expectations. It has to take months and hundreds -- if not thousands -- of hours.

    And when we hit the ceiling, we expect the game to raise that ceiling. We need new gear sets, new weapons, new exotics, etc. And as those are dumped into the game, your apex build of yesterday is no longer an apex build. Now you feel "nerfed", and frustrated because you gave to work all over again to get back to the top.

    My advice to anyone is simple -- be patient. If you are not at an apex build point, don't despair and certainly don't rush it. Instead you should enjoy it. If one piece is all you need to make your build apex, when that piece drops you should have mixed feelings about it. Yeah, because it dropped! Followed by "what now?"

    When you are at one apex build, then the "what now" is either play the game as long as you enjoy it, or try to put together another build. Play with the new toys. Expand your play style a bit. IF one has no interest in doing that, then one really shouldn't wish the apex build comes quickly, because when it does that is pretty much the end of the road.
    This is a great, insightful post.
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