Broken hero | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

Just a quick one on the zone: can you back zone on parry timing? It is still multi hits, but the second attack whiffs. I don't see any Zerk doing it, so I don't know if it is possible.

I honestly couldn't say. As far as I was aware his back zone has been a dead move for a very, very long time.

How about Nerfing warden? He was s + tier duelist from seson 2. Sad thing is his best weapon is...his shoulder... Tbh its 50/50 or you will eat double light or top heavy oh i forgot warden can faint it..Back dodge is too op and starter should last longer. In my opinion warden should be nerfed mostly like this :
Remove back dodge
And decrase distance on his bash cuz even memes are about it he can hit you with his shoulder from other end of the map XD

I've gone back and forth on the back dodge into bash issue with Warden. Sometimes I wanted it gone, other times I wanted it's link in time lengthened. At current i'd rather just see the link in time increased rather than outright removed. This is because 1) it would make it closer to WM's bash in application which I don't think is a good thing. and 2) Warden is about playing footsies with his bash. removing one direction for him limits his footsie capabilities. I do agree that at current it's too safe. But I'd rather see an attempted nerf to said safety before we just outright remove it.

It would be cool if we could polish up his chains/crushing counter a bit to add a bit of fresh air to him either way. Maybe give his UB finisher a GB soft feint to catch people who dodge. But idk if that will even make it viable.

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

Not particularly. As I said it's an unfeintable multi hit zone. Option selecting with it is a very bad idea because of that. It's why shinobi's zone was bad for a long time despite it having lots of appealing factors back then. The only notable quality from the zone as far as the competitive scene goes is that because it's a multi hit attack it was used for a lot of hitstun ganks back before zerk was replaced in comp picks. I wouldn't call his zone bad because there still exist bad zones. But in terms of his actual kit it's one of his weaknesses.

I don't think the move is a bad option select when it lands and it doesn't have pauses in between hits. If it doesn't land, then yes he would be in trouble but that's the same for many moves. However, making it feintable wouldn't hurt either.

Berzerker's whole neutral game and chain offense thrive off of mixing his lights and heavies together after feints. Specific feint combinations are even done sometimes in order to really throw off your opponents timing as is delaying the feint. I really don't know how to state it any other way. His offense is already quite limited for what it's capable of doing. And I don't agree with making a such a drastic change without compensation just because people are not fond with having to approach Berzerker differently.

Removing HA from his chained lights isn't as drastric as you make out. Berserker would still be able mix lights, heavies, and feints as you described. There would just be an additional counter window which would be relatively small since it's the unreactable chained lights that would no longer have HA. All other offense would retain the HA.

Orochi's situation is better because of his kit flow. For one thing you can't stuff Rochi's unblockable mix ups because buffering the input makes the link in time 100ms shorter. Zerks can be option selected by a zone. Zerks dodge/dash lights are not good opening tools. The dodge light in particular even though it's got near instant HA has hilariously short range meaning you can't really use it when any spacing has been done in an attempt to whiff punish or trade without being super obvious.

I don't think Orochi's situation is better overall. Some may prefer one hero over the other but that's down to the individual, not the hero. If Berserker has HA on his top unblockable, then I don't see how it can be option selected; he would get the trade in that situation. No, Zerk's dodge lights are not good opening tools but are very valuable during counterplay and shifting moment as he can quickly get into his mix-ups from them. The forward dodge light isn't that short unless you were expecting Shaman's traveling distance. Once you're familiar with it, you don't notice and use it when your opponent is in range. It's a good trading tool, especially when combined with a top unblockable that also has HA. If you have your opponent read, this approach is very effective and is far from obvious, as with all trades. Sometimes the move is good up close if you want to catch your opponent mid-swing. However, if you're trying to force a trade, then you'll be super obvious. Orochi can't get into his unblockable mix-ups on trade.

My point that you seem to be missing is that something being unreactable alone doesn't make it strong. I only believe Zerk works because of how he's currently structured. And I guess I didn't make it clear but i'll do so now. I would be fine with removing HA on some of his lights but not all of his lights. And not without changes to his kit to compensate for the loss in power. Berzerker as is is not anywhere close to being in the top 5 best duelist heros nor is he even considered in comp picks. The only person who still runs him AFAIK is Barrack and that's because the man has mained him forever and more than pulls his weight with the hero. In short Berzerker is in a good spot right now and this feels like a change being made because of feelings not because of neccessity.

I didn't miss anything. I know certain tools are not strong in isolation. That's why I said most tools are effective when used in combination with others. This why I feel Berserker doesn't need HA on his chained lights since he has enough going for him. The lights land because they are unreactable. The HA on lights simply protects his offense and isn't used for real trading.

And yes, removing HA from his chained lights is all that I was asking for. If compensation is what you're looking for, then making his zone feintable sounds reasonable to me.

As for feelings vs necessity, the same could be said for any post requesting changes.

Maybe for certain players. Or if you wanted to stretch it you could apply that to the average player. but from a mechanical stand point for the heros themselves a vast majority of heros are better now because of how FA/FD works in combination with hit/block stun. The change at most is only a frame of difference. If it were as good as you claim than neutral wouldn't still be relatively easy to defend against as far as basic attacks go. But that's not the case. IMO I would say it goes FA/FD/recovery changes, stamina changes, indicator/animation changes. All equally important and valuable. But bang for your buck the first 2 impact the game more directly and in a more mechanical level for heros.

Yes, the FA/FD/recovery changes and stamina are valuable and, again, some heroes did benefit a lot but the biggest game changer is still the 100ms changes. It's the main reason why both Testing Grounds and the CCU got a mixed reception. The FA/FD/recovery changes are not the reason why attacks land more often or the biggest reason why more attacks are viable but they do help make combat flow better and, as I said before, help negate light spam. Again, if the 100ms changes were removed, I'm sure more high level than lower-level players will complain since attacks would be landing less often and passive play may become viable again. Also, read-based offense would become non-existent since players would be able to react to most offense again.

I can understand why you would think the stamina changes were the next most important change since stamina penalties were a significant reason why passive play was the most optimal form of play as you could drain your opponent's stamina via blocks or parries, and get OSS punishes more often. It was also the reason stamina bullies were as strong as they were. Stamina penalties greatly discouraged offense. However, the stamina changes were somewhat negated by the increase in stamina cost of chained lights as a means to negate light spam, so we're still getting winded for attacking(not as much as before) but in a different context. Again the stamina changes are very important but the 100ms changes still had the most impact.

And i'm still going to disagree. he's a chain based hero that relies on HA to make up for how his chains limit his options. He would need more options if we're taking away half of what makes his chains work.

Yes, Berserker does rely on HA to make his chains work but too much for my liking as it makes that aspect safe. Berserker mains use a combination of tools to make his game work including feints, dodge soft-feints, and recovery cancels on miss. So to say removing HA off his chained light is taking away half of what makes his chains work I find is an overstatement. As for his chains limiting his options, it's an infinite chain coupled with three heavies, and are people saying the same about Shaolin who has the same type of chain which has no HA whatsoever? When people suggest improvements for Shaolin, HA to his chains don't get mentioned.

Again, removing HA from Berserker's chained lights is a small change and only offers a small counter window which is all I'm asking. There are those that want Shugoki's HA removed from his light even though he has weaknesses in his kit and, given its nature, it's understandable. He has fewer chain options than Berserker too.

[Knight_Raime]

@Dawn

I don't think the move is a bad option select when it lands and it doesn't have pauses in between hits. If it doesn't land, then yes he would be in trouble but that's the same for many moves. However, making it feintable wouldn't hurt either.

That's fine, but It's still considered a poor parry OS from a comp standpoint because of the things I mentioned. Being able to feint it would be interesting but i'm not really looking for that unless you'd afford it the same situation he gets after feinting a normal heavy in that he gets a HA light to use after it.

Removing HA from his chained lights isn't as drastric as you make out. Berserker would still be able mix lights, heavies, and feints as you described. There would just be an additional counter window which would be relatively small since it's the unreactable chained lights that would no longer have HA. All other offense would retain the HA.

Maybe in a single pick situation. But in any XvX situation he wouldn't be able to continue his chains.

I don't think Orochi's situation is better overall. Some may prefer one hero over the other but that's down to the individual, not the hero. If Berserker has HA on his top unblockable, then I don't see how it can be option selected; he would get the trade in that situation. No, Zerk's dodge lights are not good opening tools but are very valuable during counterplay and shifting moment as he can quickly get into his mix-ups from them. The forward dodge light isn't that short unless you were expecting Shaman's traveling distance. Once you're familiar with it, you don't notice and use it when your opponent is in range. It's a good trading tool, especially when combined with a top unblockable that also has HA. If you have your opponent read, this approach is very effective and is far from obvious, as with all trades. Sometimes the move is good up close if you want to catch your opponent mid-swing. However, if you're trying to force a trade, then you'll be super obvious. Orochi can't get into his unblockable mix-ups on trade.

I'd forgotten his top UB had armor. So we can ignore that. I'm vary familiar with Zerk's ranges as he was one of my pocket heros for a long time. Dash forward light cannot deal with anyone who's spaced at all unless you delay your attack input as much as you can. Which sort of defeats the purpose of the armor. The only reason I consider Berzerker to be better than Orochi at this point is because Berzerker is capable of trading pretty much whenever he wants. Which enables him to do a great many of things in 4's. In duels this makes his mix ups passable because I have to descern between a light or parry for how I approach. Your suggestion to me feels like Zerker would lose any kind of chain pressure.

I didn't miss anything. I know certain tools are not strong in isolation. That's why I said most tools are effective when used in combination with others. This why I feel Berserker doesn't need HA on his chained lights since he has enough going for him. The lights land because they are unreactable. The HA on lights simply protects his offense and isn't used for real trading.

And yes, removing HA from his chained lights is all that I was asking for. If compensation is what you're looking for, then making his zone feintable sounds reasonable to me.

As for feelings vs necessity, the same could be said for any post requesting changes.

You say you understand yet you still insist that the light being unreactable is enough. Though Zerk specifically fell out of his seat as being a regular pick because of how limited his chains are. Even if his mid chain light is 400ms he must alternate between heavies and lights in order to keep his chain going. Making his offense predictable. Feinting extends his offense but again you can't use his top light after a feint because it's 500ms. Also no, there are heros who still have actual problems with their kit that require buffs or nerfs. Zerker was and still is one of the only heros who has not needed any changes outside damage changes which has happened with CCU.

Yes, the FA/FD/recovery changes and stamina are valuable and, again, some heroes did benefit a lot but the biggest game changer is still the 100ms changes. It's the main reason why both Testing Grounds and the CCU got a mixed reception. The FA/FD/recovery changes are not the reason why attacks land more often or the biggest reason why more attacks are viable but they do help make combat flow better and, as I said before, help negate light spam. Again, if the 100ms changes were removed, I'm sure more high level than lower-level players will complain since attacks would be landing less often and passive play may become viable again. Also, read-based offense would become non-existent since players would be able to react to most offense again.

I can understand why you would think the stamina changes were the next most important change since stamina penalties were a significant reason why passive play was the most optimal form of play as you could drain your opponent's stamina via blocks or parries, and get OSS punishes more often. It was also the reason stamina bullies were as strong as they were. Stamina penalties greatly discouraged offense. However, the stamina changes were somewhat negated by the increase in stamina cost of chained lights as a means to negate light spam, so we're still getting winded for attacking(not as much as before) but in a different context. Again the stamina changes are very important but the 100ms changes still had the most impact.

High level players are still capable at reacting to most things. Neutral for instance is still pretty reactable even on console (with the exception of bashes.) Again i'm arguing about what's helped heros more mechanically. You're arguing about what helped offense in a feels way. I can't think of a single mid chain mix up that is now an actual mix up because of the 100ms changes. The closest thing I can think of is Valk's soft feint bash situation. But it already really wasnt something you could punish on reaction ever sense they made chained attacks be 100ms in vulnerability. Even her sweep is still reactable.

Yes, Berserker does rely on HA to make his chains work but too much for my liking as it makes that aspect safe. Berserker mains use a combination of tools to make his game work including feints, dodge soft-feints, and recovery cancels on miss. So to say removing HA off his chained light is taking away half of what makes his chains work I find is an overstatement. As for his chains limiting his options, it's an infinite chain coupled with three heavies, and are people saying the same about Shaolin who has the same type of chain which has no HA whatsoever? When people suggest improvements for Shaolin, HA to his chains don't get mentioned.

If you're talking about removing HA off of his infinite chain lights alone then that wasn't obvious to me. I assumed you wanted it removed from all of his lights sans his dodge/dash lights.
If you're talking about just his chains only then my confusion is far more sense any zerk worth their salt doesn't continually chain with raw attacks as that gets him parried. 90% of the time you're forced to play feint games in order to chip people away. Far as I know everyone considers shaolin's infinite useless for much of the same reason zerks isn't great. Because you're forced into predictable behavior.

Again, removing HA from Berserker's chained lights is a small change and only offers a small counter window which is all I'm asking. There are those that want Shugoki's HA removed from his light even though he has weaknesses in his kit and, given its nature, it's understandable. He has fewer chain options than Berserker too.[/QUOTE]

The only way I would be comfortable of removing his HA on his chains is if we lifted some of the restrictions on the chains like not forcing him to have to heavy after every light to continue the chain. He still couldn't use top as a direction because it goes immediately into a finisher. But at least he'd have a bit more going on. And i'd also like it if his feinted into top light was also 400ms so top can actually be used for lights in and out of chains.

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

@Dawn

That's fine, but It's still considered a poor parry OS from a comp standpoint because of the things I mentioned. Being able to feint it would be interesting but i'm not really looking for that unless you'd afford it the same situation he gets after feinting a normal heavy in that he gets a HA light to use after it.

HA light after zone doesn't sound too bad but buffing an option select could frustrate many players.

Maybe in a single pick situation. But in any XvX situation he wouldn't be able to continue his chains.

No, but isn't trading in XvX situations very risky? Wouldn't revenge be a safer option?

I'd forgotten his top UB had armor. So we can ignore that. I'm vary familiar with Zerk's ranges as he was one of my pocket heros for a long time. Dash forward light cannot deal with anyone who's spaced at all unless you delay your attack input as much as you can. Which sort of defeats the purpose of the armor. The only reason I consider Berzerker to be better than Orochi at this point is because Berzerker is capable of trading pretty much whenever he wants. Which enables him to do a great many of things in 4's. In duels this makes his mix ups passable because I have to descern between a light or parry for how I approach. Your suggestion to me feels like Zerker would lose any kind of chain pressure.

Again, the HA forward dodge light combined with the HA top UB is good for trading which requires a good read. It's not something you can force. If you see it, you take it.

You say you understand yet you still insist that the light being unreactable is enough. Though Zerk specifically fell out of his seat as being a regular pick because of how limited his chains are. Even if his mid chain light is 400ms he must alternate between heavies and lights in order to keep his chain going. Making his offense predictable. Feinting extends his offense but again you can't use his top light after a feint because it's 500ms. Also no, there are heros who still have actual problems with their kit that require buffs or nerfs. Zerker was and still is one of the only heros who has not needed any changes outside damage changes which has happened with CCU.

I do understand what you're saying but I simply disagree. Most chained lights in the game don't have HA yet we've had many complaints about light spam and the devs taking measures to make that tactic less viable. The only change I didn't agree with was the stamina cost increase to chained lights. What makes lights viable in my eyes? The combination of speed and damage coupled with the rest of the hero's kit.

High level players are still capable at reacting to most things. Neutral for instance is still pretty reactable even on console (with the exception of bashes.) Again i'm arguing about what's helped heros more mechanically. You're arguing about what helped offense in a feels way. I can't think of a single mid chain mix up that is now an actual mix up because of the 100ms changes. The closest thing I can think of is Valk's soft feint bash situation. But it already really wasnt something you could punish on reaction ever sense they made chained attacks be 100ms in vulnerability. Even her sweep is still reactable.

I'm going by the fact that attacks land more often, being parried less, being able to take more risks as a result, and the common feedback that is seen in the forums, on Reddit, and in the YouTube videos that shortly followed the CCU that either talk about the 100ms changes or light spam. With regard to the light spam complaints, it was more to do with the speed and damage of lights rather lights having HA since HA lights is only exclusive to Zerk and Shugo. Again, without the 100ms changes, read based offense would be non-existent, especially when we already have high level players that can still react to most things post CCU. We'll just have to accept we have different takes on this.

If you're talking about removing HA off of his infinite chain lights alone then that wasn't obvious to me. I assumed you wanted it removed from all of his lights sans his dodge/dash lights.
If you're talking about just his chains only then my confusion is far more sense any zerk worth their salt doesn't continually chain with raw attacks as that gets him parried. 90% of the time you're forced to play feint games in order to chip people away. Far as I know everyone considers shaolin's infinite useless for much of the same reason zerks isn't great. Because you're forced into predictable behavior.

Yes, it was only a small change I was asking for but some compensation still wouldn't hurt. Yes, the Berserker mains I've dealt with use every tool available, including HA on chained lights. I just wanted an additional counter window, which would be relatively small given what the Zerk mains can do.

Here's what I originally said:

If you could take hyper armour of Berserker's chained lights, I would appreciate it. Correct me where I'm wrong but those lights are already unreactable and can be feinted. Do they really need hyper armour as well? I would like more counterplay against him. His excessive hyper armour forces me to turtle until he gasses himself out which isn't fun for me.

Gladiator is fine to me. He could do with heavy-to-light chains for better mix-ups and flow overall.

The only way I would be comfortable of removing his HA on his chains is if we lifted some of the restrictions on the chains like not forcing him to have to heavy after every light to continue the chain. He still couldn't use top as a direction because it goes immediately into a finisher. But at least he'd have a bit more going on. And i'd also like it if his feinted into top light was also 400ms so top can actually be used for lights in and out of chains.

Going by what you said earlier, removing HA of his chained lights shouldn't be a drastic change given that Zerk mains don't continually use raw attacks. However, speeding up is top light should be fine. What would receive a bad reception though is giving Zerk a triple light chain since many would complain about the devs turning Zerk into another light spammer. Perhaps a double light chain that can flow back into the infinite wouldn't hurt to help make him less predictable, as long those lights don't have HA.

[Knight_Raime]

@Dawn

I think we will just have to table the discussion. We both seem to understand each other and just disagree. To end it on a more productive note here's what i'd like to see if they kept his kit as is and only removed it off of in chain lights:

-Top light after feint is now 400ms like the sides
-Zone can now be feinted after second hit into the same HA'ed lights that he gets from feinting heavies

[FoxyVi]

God help us....

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

@Dawn

I think we will just have to table the discussion. We both seem to understand each other and just disagree. To end it on a more productive note here's what i'd like to see if they kept his kit as is and only removed it off of in chain lights:

-Top light after feint is now 400ms like the sides
-Zone can now be feinted after second hit into the same HA'ed lights that he gets from feinting heavies

That works for me. Yes, it's okay to disagree but no point dragging the discussion if we've reached an understanding of each other's views.