Broken hero | Forums

[King_of_Xibalba]

The openers Berserker has are his unreactable lights(not that I fully agree with the philosophy that lights are openers) and his unblockable finisher mixup which can be accessed from a single light. I'm not sure what you mean by bad reactive defense since his defense is no worse than any other assassin, he's very fast, his dodge lights are great for counter attacking, his deflect guarantees a guardbreak, and his zone is a great bail out given it's speed and, as you said, is a good option select.

in general reactive guard is bad, that´s why I mean, I can shut down him easily with my other mains but I think is because I fully know his moveset, His 50/50 is very useful to open people totally true, the thing is that I believe hiperarmour for him is his personality he is a berserker they historically were resistant to damage and keep fighting, other heros I could say hiperarmour is too much but not on a tranced warrior who specialized in that. What I can tell you post ccu is that he has better flowing, certainly his dodge attack is more useful, raw lights are parried, feinted lights are slightly better than before, he is very decent overall, maybe they could add some stamina costs to his feinted lights, but at least in ranked (diamond +) my feinted lights are parried /blocked constantly forcing me to turtle or to try dodge cancels or 50/50.Some lawbros still are a pain to fight and some black priors, warlords too.

I would lie if I don´t accept my berserker post ccu is doing good, K/D ratio is higher , from 2.20(pre ccu) to 2.50. So IDK if is solely because his feinted lights being difficult to react, hiper armour, or it is something else.I´m not close minded about a little balancing for him.

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

in general reactive guard is bad, that´s why I mean, I can shut down him easily with my other mains but I think is because I fully know his moveset, His 50/50 is very useful to open people totally true, the thing is that I believe hiperarmour for him is his personality he is a berserker they historically were resistant to damage and keep fighting, other heros I could say hiperarmour is too much but not on a tranced warrior who specialized in that. What I can tell you post ccu is that he has better flowing, certainly his dodge attack is more useful, raw lights are parried, feinted lights are slightly better than before, he is very decent overall, maybe they could add some stamina costs to his feinted lights, but at least in ranked (diamond +) my feinted lights are parried /blocked constantly forcing me to turtle or to try dodge cancels or 50/50.Some lawbros still are a pain to fight and some black priors, warlords too.

I would lie if I don´t accept my berserker post ccu is doing good, K/D ratio is higher , from 2.20(pre ccu) to 2.50. So IDK if is solely because his feinted lights being difficult to react, hiper armour, or it is something else.

Nerfing lights via stamina is a bad idea since we all wanted more stamina so we could attack more. That's why the stamina penalties before the CCU were removed. The best way to nerf those lights is by removing their hyper armour. I do understand the identity aspect but that shouldn't prevail over balance. HA on slower heroes would make more sense. I would let Berserker have HA on all heavies from the start in exchange for the HA nerf on chained lights so he can trade and retain some of that identity. Lights being unreactable is fine since that is the case with most of the heroes in the game due to the CCU, as long they don't do too much damage.

I would say Berserker's CCU improvement comes from his offense being less reactable and feints being more believable, just like all the other heroes. Because of those improvements, I question the necessity of HA on unreactable feintable chained lights. For me, just to sustain the identity isn't good enough.

[King_of_Xibalba]

Nerfing lights via stamina is a bad idea since we all wanted more stamina so we could attack more. That's why the stamina penalties before the CCU were removed. The best way to nerf those lights is by removing their hyper armour. I do understand the identity aspect but that shouldn't prevail over balance. HA on slower heroes would make more sense. I would let Berserker have HA on all heavies from the start in exchange for the HA nerf on chained lights so he can trade and retain some of that identity. Lights being unreactable is fine since that is the case with most of the heroes in the game due to the CCU, as long they don't do too much damage.Also by doing that he will be extremely predictable.

I would say Berserker's CCU improvement comes from his offense being less reactable and feints being more believable, just like all the other heroes. Because of those improvements, I question the necessity of HA on unreactable feintable chained lights. For me, just to sustain the identity isn't good enough.

I don´t think is a bad idea per se if we limit slightly his feinted lights by any method, but since ccu is letting us to hit more I guess stamina penalties is out of question.
I have to disagree I think is a bad idea for him to just erase his hiperarmour on feinted lights not only because" his personality" reasons, but since I get more successful hits with my Hiper armoured heavies than with my feinted lights, by changing the guard at the last moment in a feinted heavy(with another heavy) tricky thing but if mastered is much more efecctive than feinted lights, that actually are more an annoyance since now they are not doing that much damage.I think as you said they are probably more succesful because they are harder to react. Also just erase his HA on feinted lights will render him extremely predictable.

When I said nerfing via stamina is more about feints applied for him exclusively, he doesn´t have any light combo apart from infinite chain(sort of) which both know is almost useless in high level playing. If the problem are the lights after feint being unreactable the HA is secondary to that, if not maybe we can balance that if the HA activation is delayed a few ms more. so they can be interrupted in a strict window of time. Some say hiperarmoured lights can be started only after two consecutive feints to provide some balancing.

All in all what I can recomend is to gain 2 or 3 reps with him(if you don´t already) to be familiar with his tricks, in the sense of reading his patterns. This is my principal weapon against him, they even send me hatemail when I blanked them in 4vs4 with Pk. Which is very difficult on paper cause even succesful deflects can be traded against his heavies.So in a way i agree that no char should rely on HA that much.Another thing is doing his feinted lights more obvious but this is contrary to ccu. Many zerks mains would be fine wiith less health too like shinobi at 110 hp but with his "personality" hiperarmour untouched, but I don´t know about that and how it affects balance.

[Knight_Raime]

If you could take hyper armour of Berserker's chained lights, I would appreciate it. Correct me where I'm wrong but those lights are already unreactable and can be feinted. Do they really need hyper armour as well? I would like more counterplay against him. His excessive hyper armour forces me to turtle until he gasses himself out which isn't fun for me.

Gladiator is fine to me. He could do with heavy-to-light chains for better mix-ups and flow overall.

Pretty much yes. In a single pick scenario it allows Berzerker to continue his chains on someone who miss-timed their parry attempt without having to stop and parry it himself at the cost of eating damage. In any situation involving multiple players it's what allows him to continue his chains against multiple opponents. Berzerker can be externally shut out in 4's as is. Removing the HA on his lights really limits what he can do when he's not actually shut out.

More to the point though if his only source of armor came from chain heavies it would make his offense more predictable than it already is. Zerk only gets his unreactable lights from side attacks. Meaning if he's feinting he either lights or heavies to throw off the timing. He'd only have the heavy option in that case. While his chain side lights might be unreactable for both platforms his top ones are not for either platform. Which means you can't use that direction for lights. And he can't use top heavies in chains either because that defaults to his unblockable heavy finisher. This doesn't even touch on the fact that his heavies are actually reactable even on console. Meaning I can just reaction parry them if the person continues to throw them out. In your scenario berzerker would have an even harder time getting going and even sustaining offense.


The armor on his lights exist to help him start offense (in the case of his feinted into lights) or to maintain offense (in chain lights) and removing such would basically gimp him into unviability. Zerk's current weakness is spacing since he has low range and any tactics he uses to close said range (mainly canceling whiff recoveries into dodge attacks,) is very unsafe to do. Being unreactable in it of itself does not make something good and we can easily see that with other heros.

Orochi had 1 unreactable light with nothing to support it and he suffered in bottom tier for it. Zhanhu's dodge lights being unreactable didn't save him from being considered weak either. Heck Nuxia has 2 chain unreactable lights and she's always been considered low tier.

Effective offense not only requires unreactable attacks but it also needs to be supported by other mechanics. Easy example being chargable unblockable bashes. Or if you want chain examples you can look at heros like goki, Tiandi, shaolin, Warlord, etc. Zerk doesn't have anything that supports his lights besides armor. Removing that is essentially asking for what happened to raider post stunning tap nerf.

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

Pretty much yes. In a single pick scenario it allows Berzerker to continue his chains on someone who miss-timed their parry attempt without having to stop and parry it himself at the cost of eating damage. In any situation involving multiple players it's what allows him to continue his chains against multiple opponents. Berzerker can be externally shut out in 4's as is. Removing the HA on his lights really limits what he can do when he's not actually shut out.

More to the point though if his only source of armor came from chain heavies it would make his offense more predictable than it already is. Zerk only gets his unreactable lights from side attacks. Meaning if he's feinting he either lights or heavies to throw off the timing. He'd only have the heavy option in that case. While his chain side lights might be unreactable for both platforms his top ones are not for either platform. Which means you can't use that direction for lights. And he can't use top heavies in chains either because that defaults to his unblockable heavy finisher. This doesn't even touch on the fact that his heavies are actually reactable even on console. Meaning I can just reaction parry them if the person continues to throw them out. In your scenario berzerker would have an even harder time getting going and even sustaining offense.


The armor on his lights exist to help him start offense (in the case of his feinted into lights) or to maintain offense (in chain lights) and removing such would basically gimp him into unviability. Zerk's current weakness is spacing since he has low range and any tactics he uses to close said range (mainly canceling whiff recoveries into dodge attacks,) is very unsafe to do. Being unreactable in it of itself does not make something good and we can easily see that with other heros.

Orochi had 1 unreactable light with nothing to support it and he suffered in bottom tier for it. Zhanhu's dodge lights being unreactable didn't save him from being considered weak either. Heck Nuxia has 2 chain unreactable lights and she's always been considered low tier.

Effective offense not only requires unreactable attacks but it also needs to be supported by other mechanics. Easy example being chargable unblockable bashes. Or if you want chain examples you can look at heros like goki, Tiandi, shaolin, Warlord, etc. Zerk doesn't have anything that supports his lights besides armor. Removing that is essentially asking for what happened to raider post stunning tap nerf.

The thing is, Berserker's lights are not just unreactable, they can be feinted too. Berserker also has other tools to support his offense outside HA, as discussed earlier, such his zone attack, dodge lights, top UB heavy mixups, his speed, etc. Again, I'm not convinced unreactable chained lights that can be feinted need HA. The first two traits are enough, along with Berserker's other tools.

While you may argue unreactables are not the be and end all but the CCU making offense less reactable is the core reason more offense is viable now and has improved a lot of heroes.

[Knight_Raime]

The thing is, Berserker's lights are not just unreactable, they can be feinted too. Berserker also has other tools to support his offense outside HA, as discussed earlier, such his zone attack, dodge lights, top UB heavy mixups, his speed, etc. Again, I'm not convinced unreactable chained lights that can be feinted need HA. The first two traits are enough, along with Berserker's other tools.

While you may argue unreactables are not the be and end all but the CCU making offense less reactable is the core reason more offense is viable now and has improved a lot of heroes.

No one can feint lights. Not sure what you mean by that.

His zone attack is an attack and not a mechanic. I apologize for not being specific there. When I refer to "supporting" offense I refer to things like unblockables, HA, undodgables, soft feints, etc. Basically properties that alter the move so it's something beyond just a light/heavy. Zerk's zone in particular is seen as one of the worst aspects of his kit due to it not being a feintable multi hit attack.

The tools that support his offense have to also be placed in his kit in a way that actually makes it worthwhile. Like orochi having undodgables in his kit didn't help him because he had nothing that forced people to dodge. Just as HA on heavies alone doesn't help his lights just by existing since as I mentioned they're reactable and often need to play off of HA lights in order to actually land. Similarly his unblockable top heavy doesn't help Zerk if he can't actually get to them to begin with. I'd argue Orochi's top unblockable is actually better purely because of how easy it is for orochi to get there with how his entire kit's flow works.

Actually i'd argue against that statement as there are no heros out there that got better strictly because of the indicator/animation changes. Every hero I know of that's actually made a come back with the CCU has benefitted from it by in large because of frame advantage/disadvantage and the normalization of recoveries on hit and block. Easy examples here of this would be goki and zhanhu (though technically speaking zhanhu is still not that great and is more or less match up dependent.) And even those heros still have core problems and weren't fixed with the ccu despite all the good changes. Goki's hug for instance is still a very bad move to use. Zhanhu's unblockable mix up is still not a mix up. etc.


If berzerker had better neutral tools and his top direction was actually usable in chains besides unblockable bait I might be able to understand your position on zerk. But as it stands I can't agree.

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

No one can feint lights. Not sure what you mean by that.

You're right. I do apologise. I'm not sure how I acquired that confusion. Perhaps it was how Berserker main's mix-ups got the better of me.

His zone attack is an attack and not a mechanic. I apologize for not being specific there. When I refer to "supporting" offense I refer to things like unblockables, HA, undodgables, soft feints, etc. Basically properties that alter the move so it's something beyond just a light/heavy. Zerk's zone in particular is seen as one of the worst aspects of his kit due to it not being a feintable multi hit attack.

Thanks for clearing up the confusion but the argurment still applies. A lot, if not, most tools are effective when used in combination with others.

Berserker's zone is very effective given it's speed, number of hits, being good for closing matches like Warden's zone, being a good option select, being good for stuffing certain offense, and it's ability to start chains. Like many moves, it's only bad when it doesn't land. It's a good tool overall.

The tools that support his offense have to also be placed in his kit in a way that actually makes it worthwhile. Like orochi having undodgables in his kit didn't help him because he had nothing that forced people to dodge. Just as HA on heavies alone doesn't help his lights just by existing since as I mentioned they're reactable and often need to play off of HA lights in order to actually land. Similarly his unblockable top heavy doesn't help Zerk if he can't actually get to them to begin with. I'd argue Orochi's top unblockable is actually better purely because of how easy it is for orochi to get there with how his entire kit's flow works.

HA on heavies won't help his lights and they don't need to. HA is on heavies is good for trading since they are reactable. HA on lights is only good for protecting Berserker's offense since that was the core intention. The problem I have with it is that it reduces the counter window. Again, the lights are already unreactable, so, like other lights in the game, they don't HA to land.

Berserker's top unblockable is very accessible since it is used to terminate his chain. It can be accessed from a single light, whether it's a dodge, neutal or chained light, which is no different from the Orochi. His forward dodge light has HA which makes it even easier to access the unblockable. The unblockable can also be accessed from a single heavy so if he gets a GB or makes a good read, he can get into his UB mix-up. I'd say Orochi doesn't have it easier at all in this aspect.

Actually i'd argue against that statement as there are no heros out there that got better strictly because of the indicator/animation changes. Every hero I know of that's actually made a come back with the CCU has benefitted from it by in large because of frame advantage/disadvantage and the normalization of recoveries on hit and block. Easy examples here of this would be goki and zhanhu (though technically speaking zhanhu is still not that great and is more or less match up dependent.) And even those heros still have core problems and weren't fixed with the ccu despite all the good changes. Goki's hug for instance is still a very bad move to use. Zhanhu's unblockable mix up is still not a mix up. etc.


If berzerker had better neutral tools and his top direction was actually usable in chains besides unblockable bait I might be able to understand your position on zerk. But as it stands I can't agree.

You could argue that the 100ms changes of the CCU didn't make a significant improvement to any hero but if the developers decided to undo those changes I'm sure you'll be one of the many to complain and argue that unreactables are necessary to make offense work or we'll have the return of starring contests and the turtle meta. The other aspects you mentioned don't bring large benefits to offense as you claim but more consistency to gameplay in general. Frame disadvantage on light finishers helps negate light spam and allows the defender to have a turn, unlike HA. Frame advantage comes mainly from heavy finishers as a reward for taking that risk but those risks are reactable and can be countered by blocks, parries, deflects, dodge attacks, full-guard counters, option selects etc. The only hero that largely benefits from frame advantage is Warmonger but she breaks the rules since the advantage is on her light finisher after her bash. As for normalization of recoveries on hit and block, I'm sure part of that is to do with allowing players to dodge out of light chains as a means to negate light spam, as well as to help facilitate frame advantage/disadvantage on heavy/light finishers. While it's true that no hero solely benefited from one specific change from the CCU, the 100ms changes made the biggest difference.

It has been said that Zhanhu benefited from a combination of CCU changes the most. The 100ms changes help his light finishers land more as well as his dodge attacks, and the more believable feints helped is heavies. In combination, his unblockable mix-ups were improved.

With Shugoki, many have a problem with his light attack because not only is it enhanced, it's less reactable and has HA. With this combination, he can stuff a lot of his opponent's offense and benefit from an effective form of frame advantage(or pseudo-frame advantage if you will). This is the aspect of his kit many want to be nerfed. As for his hug, it is far from bad. It is the core component of his unblockable mix-ups which makes him very strong. The move heals him and is good for wall splat punishes as well. Take that move away he'll be a lot worse off. The only weakness with the move is the long recovery but that can be negated with good timing and not abusing the move.

Bringing the focus back to Berserker, he's a fast hero that already has plenty of tools to get his offense going. HA on unreactable lights isn't necessary, especially for fast heroes.

[Knight_Raime]

@Soldier_of_Dawn

Berserker's zone is very effective given it's speed, number of hits, being good for closing matches like Warden's zone, being a good option select, being good for stuffing certain offense, and it's ability to start chains. Like many moves, it's only bad when it doesn't land. It's a good tool overall.

Not particularly. As I said it's an unfeintable multi hit zone. Option selecting with it is a very bad idea because of that. It's why shinobi's zone was bad for a long time despite it having lots of appealing factors back then. The only notable quality from the zone as far as the competitive scene goes is that because it's a multi hit attack it was used for a lot of hitstun ganks back before zerk was replaced in comp picks. I wouldn't call his zone bad because there still exist bad zones. But in terms of his actual kit it's one of his weaknesses.

HA on heavies won't help his lights and they don't need to. HA is on heavies is good for trading since they are reactable. HA on lights is only good for protecting Berserker's offense since that was the core intention. The problem I have with it is that it reduces the counter window. Again, the lights are already unreactable, so, like other lights in the game, they don't HA to land.

Berzerker's whole neutral game and chain offense thrive off of mixing his lights and heavies together after feints. Specific feint combinations are even done sometimes in order to really throw off your opponents timing as is delaying the feint. I really don't know how to state it any other way. His offense is already quite limited for what it's capable of doing. And I don't agree with making a such a drastic change without compensation just because people are not fond with having to approach Berzerker differently.

Berserker's top unblockable is very accessible since it is used to terminate his chain. It can be accessed from a single light, whether it's a dodge, neutal or chained light, which is no different from the Orochi. His forward dodge light has HA which makes it even easier to access the unblockable. The unblockable can also be accessed from a single heavy so if he gets a GB or makes a good read, he can get into his UB mix-up. I'd say Orochi doesn't have it easier at all in this aspect.

Orochi's situation is better because of his kit flow. For one thing you can't stuff Rochi's unblockable mix ups because buffering the input makes the link in time 100ms shorter. Zerks can be option selected by a zone. Zerks dodge/dash lights are not good opening tools. The dodge light in particular even though it's got near instant HA has hilariously short range meaning you can't really use it when any spacing has been done in an attempt to whiff punish or trade without being super obvious.

You could argue that the 100ms changes of the CCU didn't make a significant improvement to any hero but if the developers decided to undo those changes I'm sure you'll be one of the many to complain and argue that unreactables are necessary to make offense work or we'll have the return of starring contests and the turtle meta.

My point that you seem to be missing is that something being unreactable alone doesn't make it strong. I only believe Zerk works because of how he's currently structured. And I guess I didn't make it clear but i'll do so now. I would be fine with removing HA on some of his lights but not all of his lights. And not without changes to his kit to compensate for the loss in power. Berzerker as is is not anywhere close to being in the top 5 best duelist heros nor is he even considered in comp picks. The only person who still runs him AFAIK is Barrack and that's because the man has mained him forever and more than pulls his weight with the hero. In short Berzerker is in a good spot right now and this feels like a change being made because of feelings not because of neccessity.

The only hero that largely benefits from frame advantage is Warmonger but she breaks the rules since the advantage is on her light finisher after her bash.

She does not break the rules. Lights being disadvantaged only consider standard light finishers from chains. Warmonger's light after a bash is a special punish and thus is not subject to that. There are other heros that have similar situations and i've made a thread listing all of them and why it works that way. And I of course disagree with WM being the only hero that benefits from FA in a very positive way from the FA/FD mechanic they added. Zhanhu is another hero who nearly constantly maintains FA as an easy example.

While it's true that no hero solely benefited from one specific change from the CCU, the 100ms changes made the biggest difference.

Maybe for certain players. Or if you wanted to stretch it you could apply that to the average player. but from a mechanical stand point for the heros themselves a vast majority of heros are better now because of how FA/FD works in combination with hit/block stun. The change at most is only a frame of difference. If it were as good as you claim than neutral wouldn't still be relatively easy to defend against as far as basic attacks go. But that's not the case. IMO I would say it goes FA/FD/recovery changes, stamina changes, indicator/animation changes. All equally important and valuable. But bang for your buck the first 2 impact the game more directly and in a more mechanical level for heros.

It has been said that Zhanhu benefited from a combination of CCU changes the most. The 100ms changes help his light finishers land more as well as his dodge attacks, and the more believable feints helped is heavies. In combination, his unblockable mix-ups were improved.

Him and Shugoki are considered the biggest winners from the CCU yes. However Goki is now a top tier team fight pick and has found his place in comps due to not having garbage recoveries with his hits on hit/block stun now. Where as despite Zhanhu being a bit better in a pug situation he's still largely match up dependent. The fact that his side dodge lights/heavies actually changed a bit indicator wise (which isn't the case for others,) they're still rather poor attacks for several reasons. People are letting zhanhu's UB light land because it's not great damage that ends his pressure and puts him at FD. His unblockable mix up even on console is still reactable. Aside from the dodge indicator changes the other tool in his kit that benefitted the most from the CCU is his zone. It now has a place and does many things for him that it didn't before. However, because his dodge attacks are still bad, his recovery cancels are still poor, and his UB mix up isn't as great as it should be he's not a Great hero. Just a passable one.

The only weakness with the move is the long recovery but that can be negated with good timing and not abusing the move.

Hug is still reactable. His mix up is still negated entirely by having a bash from neutral. And his mix up from neutral is still poor because of spacing. It's only when he lands his heavy or it's blocked that people can't space it.

Bringing the focus back to Berserker, he's a fast hero that already has plenty of tools to get his offense going. HA on unreactable lights isn't necessary, especially for fast heroes.

And i'm still going to disagree. he's a chain based hero that relies on HA to make up for how his chains limit his options. He would need more options if we're taking away half of what makes his chains work.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

@Soldier_of_Dawn



Not particularly. As I said it's an unfeintable multi hit zone. Option selecting with it is a very bad idea because of that. It's why shinobi's zone was bad for a long time despite it having lots of appealing factors back then. The only notable quality from the zone as far as the competitive scene goes is that because it's a multi hit attack it was used for a lot of hitstun ganks back before zerk was replaced in comp picks. I wouldn't call his zone bad because there still exist bad zones. But in terms of his actual kit it's one of his weaknesses.




Berzerker's whole neutral game and chain offense thrive off of mixing his lights and heavies together after feints. Specific feint combinations are even done sometimes in order to really throw off your opponents timing as is delaying the feint. I really don't know how to state it any other way. His offense is already quite limited for what it's capable of doing. And I don't agree with making a such a drastic change without compensation just because people are not fond with having to approach Berzerker differently.




Orochi's situation is better because of his kit flow. For one thing you can't stuff Rochi's unblockable mix ups because buffering the input makes the link in time 100ms shorter. Zerks can be option selected by a zone. Zerks dodge/dash lights are not good opening tools. The dodge light in particular even though it's got near instant HA has hilariously short range meaning you can't really use it when any spacing has been done in an attempt to whiff punish or trade without being super obvious.




My point that you seem to be missing is that something being unreactable alone doesn't make it strong. I only believe Zerk works because of how he's currently structured. And I guess I didn't make it clear but i'll do so now. I would be fine with removing HA on some of his lights but not all of his lights. And not without changes to his kit to compensate for the loss in power. Berzerker as is is not anywhere close to being in the top 5 best duelist heros nor is he even considered in comp picks. The only person who still runs him AFAIK is Barrack and that's because the man has mained him forever and more than pulls his weight with the hero. In short Berzerker is in a good spot right now and this feels like a change being made because of feelings not because of neccessity.




She does not break the rules. Lights being disadvantaged only consider standard light finishers from chains. Warmonger's light after a bash is a special punish and thus is not subject to that. There are other heros that have similar situations and i've made a thread listing all of them and why it works that way. And I of course disagree with WM being the only hero that benefits from FA in a very positive way from the FA/FD mechanic they added. Zhanhu is another hero who nearly constantly maintains FA as an easy example.




Maybe for certain players. Or if you wanted to stretch it you could apply that to the average player. but from a mechanical stand point for the heros themselves a vast majority of heros are better now because of how FA/FD works in combination with hit/block stun. The change at most is only a frame of difference. If it were as good as you claim than neutral wouldn't still be relatively easy to defend against as far as basic attacks go. But that's not the case. IMO I would say it goes FA/FD/recovery changes, stamina changes, indicator/animation changes. All equally important and valuable. But bang for your buck the first 2 impact the game more directly and in a more mechanical level for heros.




Him and Shugoki are considered the biggest winners from the CCU yes. However Goki is now a top tier team fight pick and has found his place in comps due to not having garbage recoveries with his hits on hit/block stun now. Where as despite Zhanhu being a bit better in a pug situation he's still largely match up dependent. The fact that his side dodge lights/heavies actually changed a bit indicator wise (which isn't the case for others,) they're still rather poor attacks for several reasons. People are letting zhanhu's UB light land because it's not great damage that ends his pressure and puts him at FD. His unblockable mix up even on console is still reactable. Aside from the dodge indicator changes the other tool in his kit that benefitted the most from the CCU is his zone. It now has a place and does many things for him that it didn't before. However, because his dodge attacks are still bad, his recovery cancels are still poor, and his UB mix up isn't as great as it should be he's not a Great hero. Just a passable one.




Hug is still reactable. His mix up is still negated entirely by having a bash from neutral. And his mix up from neutral is still poor because of spacing. It's only when he lands his heavy or it's blocked that people can't space it.




And i'm still going to disagree. he's a chain based hero that relies on HA to make up for how his chains limit his options. He would need more options if we're taking away half of what makes his chains work.

Just a quick one on the zone: can you back zone on parry timing? It is still multi hits, but the second attack whiffs. I don't see any Zerk doing it, so I don't know if it is possible.

[FoxyVi]

How about Nerfing warden? He was s + tier duelist from seson 2. Sad thing is his best weapon is...his shoulder... Tbh its 50/50 or you will eat double light or top heavy oh i forgot warden can faint it..Back dodge is too op and starter should last longer. In my opinion warden should be nerfed mostly like this :
Remove back dodge
And decrase distance on his bash cuz even memes are about it he can hit you with his shoulder from other end of the map XD