Senior Member
So with the CCU mostly settled out we've seen an uptick in behavior that kind of brings to the surface a problem that hasn't been talked about in awhile. That being FH's weird hero design. We've kind of touched on it in the past with things like not everyone having an unblockable/bash to be able to deal with defense. More recently we've talked about not every hero having some way to deal with a bash other than making a read for a GB. Now we're looking at this again but this time with dodge attacks.
To be more specific for those maybe not aware dodging is one of the methods someone has at their disposal to escape chain offense (light combo spam specifically.) This was intentional by the devs as one potential way to deal with unreactable offense. However something i'm not sure the devs intended was just how effective that can be on heros with dodge attacks. To put it bluntly Dodge attacks are inconsistent. From their input window, to type of attack, to GB vulnerability. etc. Some rely on I frames where others are forced to deal with dodge frames.
Unless you have an undodgable in your kit You're unlikely to punish most good dodge attacks. This is either because they have low GB vunlerability like kensei or Glad dodge bashes..Or have superior block on dodges. Meaning they can safely dodge into attack directions. (this also exists to some extent with static guard heros keeping their guard up during dodges.) This problem is further compounded when you have oddities like Kensei's attacks and JJ's attacks pushing you back a fair bit when being hit. Thus preventing GB as an option to stop repeated dodge attacks basically Null. Something that also does not help here is how inconsistent weapon range and hitboxes are. An easy example would be someone like Nuxia where her mid chain doesn't exist outside of specific scenarios because her mid chain heavies are abysmal when it comes to catching people who side dodge.
Summary: The inconsistency of dodge attacks, hit push back, and weapon range/hitboxes makes dealing with most character's dodge attacks a difficult and often unrewarding chore to manage for a lot of the cast.
So how do we go about addressing this laundry list of issues? Some standardization is in order. But I don't believe there is a one size fits all solution.
I think some no brainer changes would be to standardize hit push back for all characters. No chain moves should really be pushing characters out of range. of each other. Only moves specifically designed for such (Tiandi kick, Goki gb punish, etc.) Then we should Standardize weapon range and hitboxes to an extent. Generally shorter weapons would have less reach but should have decent cleaving capability. Where as longer ranged weapons should have better reach but poor cleaving capability. Obviously some situations can be left as is with only minor changes (like Kensei clearing can be fine with slightly shorter range.) But the idea is I should be able to look at a weapon and have a general idea of what it can hit and when. (i'd also like Static guard to be looked at when dodging.)
This doesn't mean that short range heros shouldn't have some kind of ranged options. But this sort of falls into chase tools/gap closers. Which while related is a bigger topic for another time. However where stuff gets difficult here is dodge attacks themselves. In order to understand why i'm going to have to touch on some information. So how do dodge attacks vary?
Well to be specific... dodge distance, wether the dodge attack uses I frames or dodge frames, wether the dodge attack is a light or heavy, input window, and gb vulnerability.
Dodges themselves have I frames that start 166ms into a dodge and last for 300ms. Dodge attacks that have I frames are supposed to have standardized amounts. The only exceptions being Shinobi back flip, JJ side dodge attack, and Tiandi side dodge heavies. (Tiandi and shinobi flip having less than normal where as JJ has more.)
The problem is trying to figure out what to standardize here and how. As not all dodge attacks serve the same purpose. Some are meant to be used defensively like Orochi where as others are meant to be mix up tools to help you get going like Zhanhu or Tiandi. If we standardized all of them to rely on Dodge frames instead of I frames then they likely can't be used in team fights. If we put them all on a strict input window we might get Zhanhu's situation where they're pretty easy to GB. And if we increased vulnerability to all that skews the risk reward. Especially when some dodge attacks are still light attacks.
For me I think it best if the devs clearly designate which dodge attacks are meant to be used defensively and which ones are meant to be used offensively. And then draw a set of rules for each. Tiandi and JJ and maybe even zhanhu would have to be looked at as unique cases simply because their kits revolves around using dodges both in an offensive and defensive manner.
Summary: Dodge attacks hold too many variables for the whole roster to be able to handle them consistently. We need to standardize some aspects both for dodge attacks and for general weapon range/hitboxes for basic attacks to alleviate some of this issue.
Finally I will list my suggested changes both for general changes and for specific dodge attacks. I will not list what attack based dodges and defense based dodges should have ruleset wise because I do not have good enough match up knowledge to really give a good answer. Not to mention the devs are more keen to making individual adjustments over game wide changes in most cases:
General changes:
-Weapon range and hitboxes some what normalized to fit roughly a theme. (smaller/shorter weapons have less range but better cleave, longer weapons have better reach but less cleave, some middle ground can exist for some heros.)
-Weapon hit push is normalized for basic combo attacks. Push back existing purely for special attacks meant to create space.
-Static guard heros lose their guard for the duration of I frames on a dodge attack.
-All dodge attacks are now 33ms faster to revert that nerf that came with the CCU.
Kensei side dodge attack:
-Dodge attack input window fixed to force the dodge attack to always come out at a specific time.
-Loses guard when direction for the full length of the dodge except during the shortened superior block frames. (currently 100-600ms into dodge. Would be shortened to 100-400ms)
-Kensei now only has Dodge frames instead of I frames with his dodge attack.
-Dodge superior block now has a special GB input if an attack hits superior block frames for a guaranteed GB (previously only doable with forward dodge due to Kensei canceling his dodge input recovery with GB input which is now removed in favor of having this mechanic on all dodges.)
Conq side dodge bash:
-Complete removal of side dodge bashe's superior block on dodge.
-Bashes no longer pause stamina regen
Gladiator side dodge bashes:
-increase GB vulnerability to be punishable on dodge.
-Bashes no longer pause stamina regen.
-Dodge bashes can now link into skewer.
I've not listed all of the dodge attacks, some need buffs and others could be argued to be nerfed. But I chose the 3 that I find most problematic for most of the roster. I didn't touch on JJ or Tiandi or Zhanhu as I said they're special and I need to have more time with their match ups before I feel I can give any suggested changes. If you made it this far I appreciate the read. And look forward to responding to people.
Senior Member
Nice observations and reallly good analisis, specially when you pointed out the kensei myriad of advantages, since the ccu kenseis are abusing their Iframes, range and their push back(a real problem because is even harder to prepare a counter) in their dodge heavies, they are already safe with the superior dodge property making them better than the dodge attacks of assassins and dodge specialists, nearly every kensei I encounter is heavily relying on dodge attacks at least in 4vs4, surely You can dodge out or parry them but is a real chore since they can spam them without much cost in their stamina unlike before... also what I find more unfair is their low GB vulnerability which on paper is I think is 300-400 ms but in reality just bounce my gb (feinted or not)attempts on their dodge heavy startup 80% of the times, I really like and recommend some standarization there, because is really the safest dodge attack.
Everything else is spot on Raime, only thing I´m not sure is conq sugestions and the fact you want the stamina pause regen removed, maybe tweaking the time is paused could also work, about conq one thing I rely is blocking properties on dodge, cause I´m not great with him at offense it could work some form of compensation I think his offense is not that great but I´m only rep 2. Glad benefits with the haymaker feat but IDK pause stam regen is useful when you dont have the feat or in duels,if devs quit that how they can compensate? or more like, bashes will solely exist to interrupt? or like warlord should have a light assured? This opens various possibilities I would like to explore, nice post and truly needed to discuss since about some time.
sorry for the not so great english.
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Zhanhu's dodges on paper seem to be designed as a way to continue offense/start it. So I can understand the low damage they do on side dodges. However because they're forced to always come out at the end of his dodge attack he doesn't get anyway to really dodge attacks without delaying the input. More pressing though is that he is easaily GBed on dodge. You can't really stuff someone's attempt with his dodge attacks like you can most others. There's a handful of ways I think his dodge attacks can be improved be it directly or indirectly. And I think it needs to be done. I'm just not sure what would be best from a balancing perspective.Originally Posted by MayanKingGaming Go to original post
As for your other comment I think stamina pause should really be gone from the game outside 3 maybe 4 situations. That would be centurion's gb punches, Jorm's bashes, and JJ's choke. All 3 would feel bad to have someone regen through. Where as other bashes serve other purposes so they don't need the pause. Glad's bashes stuff HA/unblockable mix ups as an example. I could maybe see the argument to include it for some parry counters that are bashes. But in general I think bashes being safe ish and giving guaranteed damage whilst ignoring someone's guard state and doing stamina damage is strong enough as is.
Conq in general needs to move to a more offensive form. So it's not like I think he should lose superior block on dodges and not get anything in return. I just don't know how to buff him. But in general I really dislike superior block on dodges. It's a cool concept as an alternative to deflects. But as is superior block on dodge comes with people who always have their guard up even when dodging. Which makes it incredibly strong. Conq's is a problem because it exists through his entire side dodge. Which wouldn't be a problem if he didn't have access to a bash from a side dodge.
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interesting, zhanhu really feels (against good players) weak with his dodges, I feel even Pk is more reliable in this matter.
Yeah I could see now that some bashes are good the way they are for some chars for design reasons, but others could be modified to a less punishing version stamina wise.
Superior block with semipermanent top guard is indeed powerful, I could stall with him about three or four revenges in a row lol, but I´m bad at offense with him so if I kill 1 of the 4 rivals is much, very difficult task to balance him it seems, IDK also how to compensate him, but I agree he needs to improve his offense.
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I'm torn personally. If he can use it to dodge stuff better (say giving him proper I frames,) then he can use them more in team fights. But I feel they would become maybe too strong defensively. If we made the GB vulnerability not as bad then he can properly use the dodge attacks to open up people. But then you have 400ms dodge attacks that are hard to do anything against. So you're forced to simply wait and make a parry read.Originally Posted by MayanKingGaming Go to original post
Maybe they can improve the dodging via making canceling into dodges better instead of improving dodge/I-frames directly. And then slightly relax the input window so a buffered dodge attack can more reliably stuff a GB attempt. Or maybe just only doing the former but making dodge cancels on his lights be enhanced. I dunno.
He feels a lot like Orochi in that they want him to be weaving in and out with dodge attacks often but you're punished very hard for doing so and instead sort of have to turtle to get going. JJ and Tiandi have amazing dodges but they're both used defensively and not as ways to start offense.
I've always wanted conq to be able to hold a charge with his flail. But that doesn't directly help his offense. Unless they decide to let him fast charge it some how.
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I think improving the dodge via making cancelling into dodges would be great man.
Seeing your insight about the complex mechanics of the game can only let me imagine the complex task the devs truly have, I mean you are a Player with I believe, a healthy hunger for knowledge(much more than the average FH joe) and already recognize the difficulty of balancing from our point of view, the player point of view , jeez I feel I have been harsh on them the last weeks.
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I mean it's fair game to give devs a hard time. As long as you're intent isn't actually malicious then it's just understandable frustration. I called the game all sorts of terrible things just yesterday because I was having a frustration experience in breach. Yet I don't hate the game or the devs. Venting is just venting. So long as you don't take it beyond that everything is cool.Originally Posted by MayanKingGaming Go to original post
And yes i'm the type of person to obsessively tear games to pieces when i'm really into it. FH despite all of it's flaws is exactly why I have grown an interest in fighting games as a whole. I enjoyed some like smash brothers and soul calibur before. But I didn't have a passion for fighters until FH. Even with my level of knowledge there are still plenty of players with much better game sense than me. Usually that's because of match up knowledge. Which primarily comes from experience.
As often as I talk about this game I probably have less actual game time played compared to most players. Afterall between pc and console I only have like...maybe 80 reps?
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I have 70 in total, but I can compete with 300, 600 or the last time 733 total reps lel, yeah I think in this case is a matter of passion, last time I tried ranked was about 6 months ago, with pk haha It went good, now I fear I maybe could get salty because you know ccu problems. I know you and many others don´t have much regard for ranked duels, I think that yeah is not the best tool to know how good is a player, also many great players don´t touch it, but my competitive self wants to try my luck again hehe, maybe if they fix some of her problems ...I hope moderators see this thread you sugested many interesting things they could use.
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I mean ranked can be fun despite it's issues. It's a made up emblem next to your name and small stuff like that makes people return. I tried out ranked last season and placed Plat 5. Not bad considering the ccu. But I was playing BP. Tried this season with Cent whom i'm very rusty with and only got gold 1. Lot harder to do better with Cent though because he has no way to deal with strong defense. You just have to try your damnedest to punish them enough to OOS them or near OOS them so they can't really risk doing much.Originally Posted by MayanKingGaming Go to original post
I just take issue with people who use their rank to try and make their opinion weigh more. It would be like if I touted my number of hours that I played something. Basically ranks in themselves are cool and if you want to use it as a footnote to point out how gameplay is around that level that's alright. but it shouldn't ever be THE point in someone's argument. Like how Solid Sol keeps mentioning ranks whenever he talks about gameplay or points he's trying to make. It's not relevant information.
I'm sure Insulin will pass along the thread to some capacity if they see it. They're usually always sending my threads in some fashion d:
Tis why my friends used to joke about me having an inside position since I get along with the mods well.
