Welp...Change my mind : 3 | Forums

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

Trading in general is a defensive trait yes. But I don't see it working out in LB's current design with the likely numbers he'd receive based on other in game examples. You wouldn't be able to see someone's indicator and then throw your heavy to trade. that only works with goki these days because goki's got chargable heavies that activate their armor the moment he stops charging. (assuming we're talking from neutral here.) Devs specifically have been putting armor very late both from neutral and in combo in most cases to avoid effective trading situations that plagued the game in the past.

I should try to re state myself as I don't feel I was clear. To me being offensive means taking the initiative. Armor by it's very nature is not doing that. You're waiting for an opponent to make a mistake and then trading. That's not offensive. And because armor is defensive by nature I cannot agree to the statement that armor makes someone's offense work. Berzerker is the exception because his offense is very unreactable quick feint options and recovery canceling. Him having armor means he doesn't have to worry about being stopped. LB does not have the speed nor the structure to mimic this. So I can't agree that it would improve his offense.

I'll just have to disagree on that last bit. LB is defensively designed. But that does not inherently mean defensive traits will fit into his kit. I think his defense is focused around punisment. hence his elaborate setup of parries. And his high HP to damage ratio bolsters this. I personally don't think people attack into LB anyway because of how threatening he is with his parries. So even if giving him HA might be beneficial in average play I don't see it doing much to change or improve his situation in high level play. To be fair I don't think it would really hurt it either. But I generally don't want more armor in the game at this point unless it really makes sense to me.

That's why i'm against every rework/buff suggestion i've seen for hitokiri.

With LB, we're not looking to trade on reaction, like Hitokiri of old. Again, trades would be read based.

Offense, for the most part, does require taking the initiative but trading with that attacks that are also chain starters are tide turners and allow players to access their offense and apply pressure to their opponents. This is similar parry punishes that are chain starters.

We're also not looking for LB to mimic Berserker because, again, trading on read is defensive and would enhance LB's style in that aspect. You may not like it but that's a personal preference. HA on LB's heavies was a common request before his rework.

I'm pretty sure trading would be useful at higher levels if good reads is a thing. It would be another option for LB along with his parry punishes.

[Knight_Raime]

With LB, we're not looking to trade on reaction, like Hitokiri of old. Again, trades would be read based.

Offense, for the most part, does require taking the initiative but trading with that attacks that are also chain starters are tide turners and allow players to access their offense and apply pressure to their opponents. This is similar parry punishes that are chain starters.

We're also not looking for LB to mimic Berserker because, again, trading on read is defensive and would enhance LB's style in that aspect. You may not like it but that's a personal preference. HA on LB's heavies was a common request before his rework.

I'm pretty sure trading would be useful at higher levels if good reads is a thing. It would be another option for LB along with his parry punishes.

Yeah but again we run into the problem where I don't realistically think LB is going to be trading often because in my experience people don't really attempt to attack into him in fear of being parried. So trying to bait with heavies in hopes people would fall for it and you'd trade into it doesn't seem like something that would happen. (I'm especially confused because i'm told that people just parry his heavies on reaction all the time. So I don't see how people would ever trade.)

I'm aware it was a common ask for him both before and after it. I still disagree with it being helpful for his kit as a whole. Armor on his bash worked because of how that situation worked. I don't imagine armor would realistically for his heavies outside of not being interrupted in team fights.

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

Yeah but again we run into the problem where I don't realistically think LB is going to be trading often because in my experience people don't really attempt to attack into him in fear of being parried. So trying to bait with heavies in hopes people would fall for it and you'd trade into it doesn't seem like something that would happen. (I'm especially confused because i'm told that people just parry his heavies on reaction all the time. So I don't see how people would ever trade.)

I'm aware it was a common ask for him both before and after it. I still disagree with it being helpful for his kit as a whole. Armor on his bash worked because of how that situation worked. I don't imagine armor would realistically for his heavies outside of not being interrupted in team fights.

In an offensive context, you're not necessarily trying to bait with just heavies to get a trade. It can be any offense that causes your opponent to try to counter what you conditioned them to and then you get the trade. If they have a habit of countering a certain way, then you would get the read. If your heavies are getting parried then you're not trading, since trading involves reading and catching your opponent in mid-attack so they can't counter or evade.

In team fights, HA isn't very reliable if you're on the receiving end of multiple hits since you only need one hit to delete HA.

At some point, LB's opponents are going to have to attack if they want to win and that's where opportunities for trading, as well as other counters, would come from. It the attacks come from a counter-based context, again, that's what you would try to bait.

[FoxyVi]

[FoxyVi]