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Mm yes. I like this, I like this a lot, I think this is a very good suggestion. Have you posted this in the feedback forum?Originally Posted by Goat_of_Vermund Go to original post
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Originally Posted by Mighty_Mackerel Go to original post
Thank you for answering! My experience is, more people will see it here. I think I would have about 3 or 4 answers for the topic if it would be in Suggestion&Feedback, that is quite abandoned for a time now. I also quickly scrolled through the last 10 pages of Suggestion&Feedback, only two topics has Mod answer: one is a big, popular topic necroed from the past on page 8, and the other is a one is a recent oneliner topic from someone who was beaten by a Centurion and ran to mommy to snitch on him.
I like to discuss my ideas with just the community of these forums, but tbh, if it will not be forwarded to the devs, it is quite pointless, and the odds here are better for that.
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Pk has one last broken thing: as far as I am aware, Pk still gets 38 damage with a guardbreak (40+ with a wall splat). Plus a free heavy with a team mate, and pretty much instant kill if you have a Shaman nearby. This 38 damage is obviously absolutely busted for a guardbreak, it was the best gb punish even before the CCU. This can obviously be lowered once she gets her buffs.
Also, her crossbow should deal identical damage to other level 3 projectiles. 25 is a joke.
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Until she gets real help, it would be a nice first step to give back her frame advantage on the dagger cancel. If Shaman can have it on hers, you really can not name a single reason pk should not get this.
It would be also nice if her projectile feat wouldn't deal half of other projectiles' damage. She used to have two shots, it was valid reason then, now the only thing is some cooldown, which is obviously not a good compensation as it is far less effective than other projectiles for finishing off people.
And ffs, stop feats removing bleed already.
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So I saw this thread shoot up almost immediately and I wanted to potentially give feedback on it. But I refrained from doing so until giving PK a significant go post CCU. My experience is from console since i've basically moved back there from pc. I've essentially put a rep and a half in her post ccu. And considering i'm only doing duels that equates to a few days of playtime for me.
Anyway I do agree that she'll need more adjustments than the balance of her direct damage and bleed damage. Her soft feints don't make up for the fact that her primary damage is from lights. It's incredibly difficult to land a combo heavy let alone a GB with her current kit structure. The enemy has no real reason to attempt to parry her lights. As 400ms combo lights do poor damage. And PK is likely to bleed her own stamina out before she bleeds you out.
The enhanced property is for sure helpful but it doesn't go far enough. However due to the nature of it and her having 400ms combo lights and the often forgot about fact that bleed lets her kill with chip on any of her attacks we have to be extremely careful on how we buff her. Anyway let me give feedback on your suggestions and then I shall give some of my own:
1) I've had this idea for her deflect specifically for a long time in order to make her deflect stand out more. I am still fine with this concept. But I think you've placed it on too many moves. If the devs were to go with this concept i'd limit it to her side dodge attacks only. But they'd have to keep the direct damage low instead of rebalancing it's damage.
The issue that arises with this concept though is how easy dodge attacks apply bleed. Dodge attacks also are inherently defensive tools. You could reliably nuke people with this damage which could be perceived as unhealthy. If we stuck this behind her deflect people would try to go for her deflect more but it might not see enough usage. Similarly if we made it so you had to apply the bleed in the same way (so double deep gouge or double dagger cancel) it would sort of ham fist you into playing a specific way. So I guess to close out here while I think the idea is great I think it's too hard to balance since it's messing with TTK pretty hard. It would just be safer to reduce the bleed damage for dodge attacks and add it to direct damage.
2) I am 100% behind letting PK chain into combo heavies from these. It would make her kit flow a lot better without forcing a lot of returning to neutral and struggling to get flow going again. It also adds meaningful choice. Do you go for the guaranteed bleed and head back to neutral to potentially fail to get in? (assuming the dodge attack lands,) or do you forgo bleed and it's benefits for potentially more up front damage with combo heavies? Those have soft feints and you can continue your mix ups either way.
3) I am 100% against giving her a traditional combo unblockable. Bleed in her case offers quite a bit. It just reeks of imbalance. That being said if we were going to have to force an unblockable into her kit i'd lock it behind her zone. This can be seen as an alternative to just making it a heavy parry punish again. As is your bleed still allows you to chain into the heavy portion of it. Her zone is cheaper than most, can be done off of GB, and has very good recovery on feinting. If her second half was made unblockable than it would give a reason to use the soft feints.
4) We could make it a heavy parry again. I wouldn't be against it. But I think the idea I mentioned above makes her zone more interesting. Her zone was always different compared to the rest of the cast. I'd prefer if they could some how manage that rather than doing the bare minimum to make it functional. The other suggestions won't happen because the devs want standardized feints/soft feints. It being able to execute isn't a bad idea. But if her heavies are doing better direct damage and she can chain into combo heavies more ON TOP OF potentially having an unblockable in her kit I really don't think she needs that much help. She has bounty hunter. So it's not like she needs executions to survive. Remember chip kills with bleed enabled.
5) She already has 2 valuable choices in T1. I'd rather the devs just try to buff underperforming feats than trying to give every hero essentially the same list of good feats.
Pretty much the same feelings for her T2 selections. Revenge attacks will be better on her if her heavies are landing more. Which the suggestions on buffing her pretty much do that. All of her T3's are good. T4 is the only place i'd consider she needs help with.
My suggestions:
-Make side/forward dodge heavies do more direct damage and less bleed damage. Damage amount overall isn't altered from current values.
-Dodge/dash heavies and dagger cancel are now chain starters.
-Zone second half is now unblockable but only if opponent is bleeding.
-Dagger cancel can now be done into all 3 guard directions or is considered enhanced while opponent is bleeding.
Senior Member
Raime, since my first post on the forums I sugested this , lol totally agree(Im PapillonFlota just changed my name)
Make side/forward dodge heavies do more direct damage and less bleed damage. Damage amount overall isn't altered from current values.
-Dodge/dash heavies and dagger cancel are now chain starters.
-Dagger cancel can now be done into all 3 guard directions or is considered enhanced while opponent is bleeding.
this changes while basic could improve her viability, even pre ccu I always thought this could be implemented.
this is interesting never thought about it:
.-Zone second half is now unblockable but only if opponent is bleeding.
I remember goat proposed a while ago a second stance for her, but don´t remember the details, a second stance could be interesting.
Senior Member
So I saw this thread shoot up almost immediately and I wanted to potentially give feedback on it. But I refrained from doing so until giving PK a significant go post CCU. My experience is from console since i've basically moved back there from pc. I've essentially put a rep and a half in her post ccu. And considering i'm only doing duels that equates to a few days of playtime for me.
Anyway I do agree that she'll need more adjustments than the balance of her direct damage and bleed damage. Her soft feints don't make up for the fact that her primary damage is from lights. It's incredibly difficult to land a combo heavy let alone a GB with her current kit structure. The enemy has no real reason to attempt to parry her lights. As 400ms combo lights do poor damage. And PK is likely to bleed her own stamina out before she bleeds you out.
The enhanced property is for sure helpful but it doesn't go far enough. However due to the nature of it and her having 400ms combo lights and the often forgot about fact that bleed lets her kill with chip on any of her attacks we have to be extremely careful on how we buff her. Anyway let me give feedback on your suggestions and then I shall give some of my own:
1) I've had this idea for her deflect specifically for a long time in order to make her deflect stand out more. I am still fine with this concept. But I think you've placed it on too many moves. If the devs were to go with this concept i'd limit it to her side dodge attacks only. But they'd have to keep the direct damage low instead of rebalancing it's damage.
The issue that arises with this concept though is how easy dodge attacks apply bleed. Dodge attacks also are inherently defensive tools. You could reliably nuke people with this damage which could be perceived as unhealthy. If we stuck this behind her deflect people would try to go for her deflect more but it might not see enough usage. Similarly if we made it so you had to apply the bleed in the same way (so double deep gouge or double dagger cancel) it would sort of ham fist you into playing a specific way. So I guess to close out here while I think the idea is great I think it's too hard to balance since it's messing with TTK pretty hard. It would just be safer to reduce the bleed damage for dodge attacks and add it to direct damage.
2) I am 100% behind letting PK chain into combo heavies from these. It would make her kit flow a lot better without forcing a lot of returning to neutral and struggling to get flow going again. It also adds meaningful choice. Do you go for the guaranteed bleed and head back to neutral to potentially fail to get in? (assuming the dodge attack lands,) or do you forgo bleed and it's benefits for potentially more up front damage with combo heavies? Those have soft feints and you can continue your mix ups either way.
3) I am 100% against giving her a traditional combo unblockable. Bleed in her case offers quite a bit. It just reeks of imbalance. That being said if we were going to have to force an unblockable into her kit i'd lock it behind her zone. This can be seen as an alternative to just making it a heavy parry punish again. As is your bleed still allows you to chain into the heavy portion of it. Her zone is cheaper than most, can be done off of GB, and has very good recovery on feinting. If her second half was made unblockable than it would give a reason to use the soft feints.
4) We could make it a heavy parry again. I wouldn't be against it. But I think the idea I mentioned above makes her zone more interesting. Her zone was always different compared to the rest of the cast. I'd prefer if they could some how manage that rather than doing the bare minimum to make it functional. The other suggestions won't happen because the devs want standardized feints/soft feints. It being able to execute isn't a bad idea. But if her heavies are doing better direct damage and she can chain into combo heavies more ON TOP OF potentially having an unblockable in her kit I really don't think she needs that much help. She has bounty hunter. So it's not like she needs executions to survive. Remember chip kills with bleed enabled.
5) She already has 2 valuable choices in T1. I'd rather the devs just try to buff underperforming feats than trying to give every hero essentially the same list of good feats.
Pretty much the same feelings for her T2 selections. Revenge attacks will be better on her if her heavies are landing more. Which the suggestions on buffing her pretty much do that. All of her T3's are good. T4 is the only place i'd consider she needs help with.
My suggestions:
-Make side/forward dodge heavies do more direct damage and less bleed damage. Damage amount overall isn't altered from current values.
-Dodge/dash heavies and dagger cancel are now chain starters.
-Zone second half is now unblockable but only if opponent is bleeding.
-Dagger cancel can now be done into all 3 guard directions or is considered enhanced while opponent is bleeding.
Thank you for taking the time to answer! I put about the same amount of time in PK past CCU, but not much more. She is not really fun to play now, you have to work extremely hard for scraps someone can even with one single mixup.
You are absolutely right on the stamina part, using lights as the main part of offense is not working now. Before her nerfs, her heavies were actually quite good for offense because of the many options they can lead into, but now that they basically deal no damage, they are not. And yes, the chip damage part is good, but honestly, the most chip damage she can get in with an attack is around 2-3/hit.
1. I disagree on the too many moves part. The only move that maybe shouldn't do it is her zone (which would be a heavy in my version). This is not a damage buff, you are taking off hp you have already took off with your former attacks, it is just a way to make it faster, and make these attacks more intense. It is extremely hard to get executions with Peacekeeper, and while I accept that some heroes like Hitokiri are built for that more than some assassins like Nuxia, PK is just absurdly unable to do that. If we count the attacks as instant, forward dodge heavy is 19, side dodge heavy is 16, side heavy opener is 24, top heavy opener is 27, finishers 31. These are perfectily avarage numbers.
I will reflect your bounty hunter point here, because the executions, a.k.a 4v4 selfheal was mentioned. You just don't get executions with pk. And the same sadly goes for killing blows, bleeding enemies are often finished off by other people with far more direct damage, which means Bounty Hunter does not trigger. It is a great feat, I agree, but on PK, I banished it from all my builds in favour of stealth, which is actually far more useful and helps more in survivability. Bounty hunter might be a viable choice with this change, without it, it is garbage on pk. If you try some 4v4 with pk, you will see yourself how useless it is.
2. I think I would never abandon any guaranteed damage for potential damage (repping up such a weak hero to 70 makes that mindset). I mainly want dodge attacks to start chains because it is irritating that if you miss or blocked, then that's it, while others just go for the next move. Even Vanguards and Heavies can chain from dodge attacks, so PK should too (her dodge heavy was 28 damage pre CCU, then I could completely accept that it should have great weaknesses as compensation).
3. Shaman has an Unblockable, with just as much or better pressure with her bleed. Top heavy finishers are completely unused anywhere, so I think it would be a simple and logical change to give her that. Her zone's second part wouldn't work with this, it is not feintable after she did the spinning (see point 4), so you either commit or dagger cancel. Which for example meains that you will be flipped by a Black Prior no matter which one you choose. If it would be feintable later as I suggested in point 4, then it might work, but I would favour the top heavy finisher, since it would give more variety. I don't think it would be op, especially if the gb softfeint is removed as compensation.
4. I guess this point would work based on how point 3 works.
5. She has useful feats. She has absolutely thrash ones as well. These include: Conqueror, Fiat Lux, Revenge Attacks (I wrote down in an other topic my opinion. Just like BH, this is useless on PK), Catapult, and Last Laugh is extremely situational. Her projectile is half the damage of the normal ones. Orochi imo is a far better pick only because his feats are actually strong.
About your suggesions:
1. Having more direct damage than bleed is not a bad approach, but far from enough.
2. Zone's second half is not really threatening. Worst case, you block top and dodge safely on the second attack's timing for a free gb. Zone's second half would be working as an unblockable only if you could feint it, but the feint now happens well before the indicator shows up, once it is out, you are in a very unfavourable 50/50 even by the most optimistic point if view. It is so bad that removing the zone's second half would be an actual buff.
3. Dagger cancel is already enchanced if the opponent is bleeding. The omnidirection buff would work as an alternative for the unblockable. However, that means she would be able to use infinite lightspam. Noobs already complain about lightspam, if she gets a buff like this, she will be whined back to D tier a few seasons later. And I agree on the fact that this kind of light attack-based offense would be incredibly hard to defend against (unless you play conqueror or aramusha ).
Papillon: I remember that stance thing. It would have been basically a rapier stance where she uses rapier techniques. That would, however, consume too much energy, something they will never invest. And it would have been a different play style for her. Her current one could work with a few adjustment.
Actually, I would welcome any buffs now, even if not completely sufficent.
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@Goat
1) I'm aware of the damage numbers. I'm specifically talking TTK. Maybe another easy comparison would be Warden versus hitokiri. Warden pre ccu had a higher damage potential than hitokiri with his mix ups. But he had lower average damage compared to hito always getting the same damage regardless if the kick landed or she feinted and got a GB. The issue i'm raising is we'd potentially have another character that can nuke people down quickly. Really the only way I can see this working out is if it was stuck to her current dagger cancel. Since that plus it's bleed is only 13 damage. Which is slightly higher than the average light openers. And she'd be at frame disadvantage so she couldn't just repeatedly apply bleed and then shed it for instant DPS.
As for T1 feats I flip back and forth on stealth and bounty. If i'm in a group I use stealth because I can have allies setup executions for me and being able to not get hit by feats is nice. But solo I run bounty hunter specifically because I can prowl around for low health players, tag them with bleed, and then either goat them into an execution situation or I simply zone feint to kill with chip.
2) Shaman's unblockable is 1100ms compared to PK's 800ms top heavy. With indicators being delayed that's a 700ms unblockable for her which would show up as fast as orochi's unblockable if not faster. I mention this specifically because this is likely the reason why the slowed his top heavy down by 200ms when they gave him an unblockable. Shaman isn't a very combo heavy character while pk is. And I simply think that allowing her to have 400ms combo attacks that don't care about block and can kill with chip is already really strong. If she had an unblockable in chain I think that would be OP. And I really don't agree with removing an option just to fit another option in.
You are correct that you can't feint the second half of the zone. But that portion is soft feintable into both dagger cancel and GB. So i'd think the unblockable would work there anyway. But if we have to give the ability to traditionally hard feint there then sure. I'm not opposed to it.
3) I disagree with revenge attacks being useless specifically because of the buffs we'd be giving her. The only reason I can see that argument right now is because her main damage is with lights and bleed. If we start increasing her damage directly and her heavies start being usable far more often she'd get more mileage out of it. We can buff her crossbow sure. But I still stand by the rest of my points. The only thing i'd be alright with is removing last laugh in favor of a better feat. Last laugh is a poorly designed feat that shouldn't exist anyway.
4) Then the feint window of the zone should be fixed. Because that sounds unintended. You're correct in that it's enhanced when they are bleeding. I was not fully with it when I typed. I meant to state that either she gets omi directional dagger cancel or dagger cancel is enhanced by default. Personally i'd prefer the former. But I understand how potentially scary that might be. Which is why I suggested the latter.
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Sorry for the short answer in advance! I will write a longer one later, I just want to address a few points:Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
I think it might be a preference in playstyle then. I find Bounty Hunter quite useless, though I would trade it for any of the even more useless T2s. Stealth is quite good for a playstyle a rogue would play in an MMO pvp, bh is more of a survival tool, and pk can not really remain in fights for long.
1. Zone second part has no GB softfeint as far as I am aware. I have watched countless very good pk fights and guides from season 1, and it never came up it has a gb softfeint. I honestly never tried to gb softfeint it.
2. I am fine with a 900-1000ms top heavy finisher for the ub property. The move is useless now, so it is fair trade. Nobody goes for a top heavy, you just safely put your guard up and she is harmless.
3. With any working offense, flow and momentum, both revenge attacks and bounty hunter would be quite different choices. By the way, revenge is not a big deal on her: predictable chase tool, bleed is not buffed by it, short range, and her knockdown in revenge actually throws people out of her range.
Along Last Laugh, Conqueror, Fiat Lux and Catapult should be replaced as well. Neither does worth anything.
4, Omnidirection dagger cancel I think would be really hated by low levels, but the enchanced dagger cancel wouldn't do much. It already lands quite well, and I think people expecting it go for the parry anyway, and they can be hit by the heavy if you make the correct read.
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I would like to post here a video which was posted in the Suggestion&Feedback subforum by forum member Monk_n_Bonk. I think it does not receive the deserved attention, and I think everyone who wants to understand this topic completely should watch this:
For the record, I do not agree with the path this youtuber would choose to pk, but his summary on pk is perfect. I think I am not the only one playing pk who would agree with this analysis.
