Special cases involving lights PSA | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

Making this thread because i'm tired of constantly correcting people. Part of this is my fault since I did not closely examine some of the moves initially and for that I apologize. So this thread is going to contain ALL* of the instances i'm aware of where people might be confused on why they can't dodge out or why they can't beat out their opponents light. ( *= all of the one's i'm aware of. It's possible I might be missing 1-3 but this should be 90% of the examples.)
I will also attempt to explain why these are the case.


"finishers" that are actually not finishers:

-Valk's side light finishers. Reason? They have a bash component.

-Shaman's bleed stab both after heavy feint and after heavy finisher. Reason? Former because it's a soft feint. Latter because it's a unique follow up.

-Pk's triple kidney stab and her bleed stab after heavy finisher. Reason? Former is a special punish. Later because it's a unique follow up.

-Warlord's headbutt into light. Reason? Unique attack animation.

-Warmonger's light after bash. Reason? Unique attack animation.

-Nobushi's vipers retreat after a light finisher and dodge light/heavy after vipers retreat. Reason? Former and latter are both recovery cancels.

-Orochi's dodge lights after light finishers. Reason? Recovery cancels by dodging out of them.

-Zhanhu dodge lights/basic attacks into zone into dodge attacks. Reason? The recovery cancel into zone is quick. Zone causes medium hit reaction being a heavy which prevents stuffing with a light/dodging out.

-Shaolin's qi stance lights. Reason? cause heavy hitstun which is the same as most heavies hitstun.

-Highlander's lights. Reason? Probably hitstun since the devs should've increased branch in time with the last patch.


Why can't I dodge the light follow up:

-Kensei's dodge forward light. Reason? Dodge forward light creates medium hit stun which is the same as most heavies hitstun.

-Nuxia's parry counter, dodge light, and deflect. Reason? All 3 moves cause medium hit stun which is the same as most heavies hitstun.

-Shugoki singular light spam. Reason? Causes medium hitstun which is the same as most heavies hitstun. (it's neutral on block though. So you trade and interrupt with goki if you block his light.)

-Generic heavy into combo light. Reason? Heavies do medium hitstun which means you cannot dodge out in time. (you can still deflect if you are playing a character who can deflect.)



So these for the most part are the "exceptions" to the rules that the devs have mentioned aside from HL's case. Hopefully you guys can internalize this information and improve your gameplay from it. Knowing this stuff has certainly helped me.

[Velentix]

Nice. The only one I didn't see on here that I need to look into is zhanhu's light finisher. Last time I played it didn't seem like he got disadvantage after it, but that might've just been me being too slow.

[Knight_Raime]

Nice. The only one I didn't see on here that I need to look into is zhanhu's light finisher. Last time I played it didn't seem like he got disadvantage after it, but that might've just been me being too slow.

I can try to check later today. But if you don't want to wait you can go into training and set him to do the light finisher and just mash the light button after being hit to see if it'll interrupt his next light.

[Velentix]

Checked, doesn't look like it. Can't speak for if his dodge lights change anything about it. I was either slow or the latency was pretty bad.

[Knight_Raime]

Checked, doesn't look like it. Can't speak for if his dodge lights change anything about it. I was either slow or the latency was pretty bad.

Probably latency/packet loss. I know that one doesn't cause heavy hitstun. None of his dodge attacks except forward dodge heavy do. He does have the ability to dodge cancel non finisher recoveries with a dodge but unless they secretly buffed those times you can't just dodge cancel into another dodge light over and over and it beat out other lights. The only 2 good cancel times he has is off of his running attack and after a zone.

[Knight_Raime]

Checked, doesn't look like it. Can't speak for if his dodge lights change anything about it. I was either slow or the latency was pretty bad.

Bumping in hopes you will see. But I went and retested everything since I had some extra time on my hands. Zhanhu does not get frame advantage after his light finishers.

HOWEVER, zhanhu can retain frame advantage almost indefinitely thanks to his zone. Canceling recoveries into his zone is quick enough to prevent someone from trying to stuff a follow up attempt. And because his zone causes medium hitstun since all zones (aside from pk) are considered heavies this means they cannot stuff your unblockable light attempt nor can they attempt to stuff any dodge attack you do that's not your forward dodge heavy. The zone being undodgable and causing the medium hitstun also means someone can't really ever default to dodging out of anything Zhanhu does.

The only time Zhanhu actually has frame disadvantage in his kit is if he does his unblockable light or if he repeatedly dodge attacks.

[Velentix]

Bumping in hopes you will see. But I went and retested everything since I had some extra time on my hands. Zhanhu does not get frame advantage after his light finishers.

HOWEVER, zhanhu can retain frame advantage almost indefinitely thanks to his zone. Canceling recoveries into his zone is quick enough to prevent someone from trying to stuff a follow up attempt. And because his zone causes medium hitstun since all zones (aside from pk) are considered heavies this means they cannot stuff your unblockable light attempt nor can they attempt to stuff any dodge attack you do that's not your forward dodge heavy. The zone being undodgable and causing the medium hitstun also means someone can't really ever default to dodging out of anything Zhanhu does.

The only time Zhanhu actually has frame disadvantage in his kit is if he does his unblockable light or if he repeatedly dodge attacks.

Thanks for the research. Good thing it's only the zone. Easy enough to parry that one if they use it too often. I guess I'll have to practice dodgeing into it as valk as well so I can get that sweet deflect. Thanks for the thorough write up.

[Knight_Raime]

Thanks for the research. Good thing it's only the zone. Easy enough to parry that one if they use it too often. I guess I'll have to practice dodgeing into it as valk as well so I can get that sweet deflect. Thanks for the thorough write up.

No problem! Glad the info is useful to someone.