Deflect and CC Damage Numbers | Forums

[MCBooma16]

As we can all see, damage numbers in general seem to be standardized within a certain algorithm. Not only is this unnecessary, it makes the game more stale and takes away character identity to an extent. What I really want to discuss are deflect and CC damage numbers, as they are special moves that certain characters possess. Some will say that these special attacks are to be high risk, high reward, and I agree; I would assume most players would agree.

Here is a simple number graph showing how I feel about some of these damage values:

3.0 being Great
2.0 being Decent
1.0 being Bad and Intolerable

First, let's start with characters that have Crushing Counters(CC) as part of their kit, from worst to best after the CCU changes. I will compare normal light or heavy parry damage numbers to justify my points and will give a brief insight as to the insecurities of the special moves.

Conqueror: Compared to neutral heavies, there is no change in damage value if a superior heavy is used. I suppose I can be okay with this, but I believe superior heavies did slightly more damage before the CCU. Correct me if I'm wrong. This isn't a huge deal, but there isn't much of an incentive to try using a superior heavy. (1.0--- Bad).

Valkyrie- Neutral lights deal 12dmg. CC lights deal 15dmg. This is pretty bothersome to me because before the CCU changes, a CC dealt just as much damage as a heavy, which would give players an incentive to try and CC a heavy attack or so, as well as initiate their own chain again. Smart players who could catch on would parry these attempts, classifying this move as a high risk/high reward type of move. I feel Valkyrie's superior lights have lost their luster, and are now primarily used to get back on the offensive. (1.3--- Bad, Intolerable).

Shaolin- Neutral top lights are 12dmg, and neutral side lights are 5 damage.
A top CC from Qi stance deals 20 dmg and stuns. A side CC from Qi stance deals 22dmg.

This is strange, because side CC timings are very generous compared to the quicker top CC timing, but warrent slightly more damage. I believe these damage numbers are very bad, but it gets even stranger. They classify as light attacks, but they do NOT put Shaolin into frame disadvantage. You get frame advantage if you land a successful CC. Shaolin is also immobil in Qi stance and must actively cancel out in order to move again. It isn't common to pull off a CC from Shaolin unless people decide to dodge attack as soon as you enter Qi stance, or you make a good read. I don't believe Shaolin's only and restrictive defensive tool from Qi stance warrents enough damage, with total damage numbers dealing less than a neutral heavy. (1.4--- Bad, very close to Intolerable.).

Warlord- Neutral top light deals 13dmg. Neutral side light deals 12dmg. All CCs deal 17dmg. This is okay, but not quite enough. I'm looking for just a little more to make this move more worth it.
(1.6--- Almost Intolerable).

Black Prior- Neutral lights are 12dmg. The CCs deal 19dmg. This is okay, as they usually catch people off guard just enough for people not to dodge the followup bash. However, I think this damage number is only slightly below average from what I'd like to see from a CC. (1.8--- Tolerable).

Highlander- Neutral lights are 12dmg. CC's are 20dmg. This one is right on the edge of decent, which is kind of what we want. Potential 20dmg punish against a heavy attack is not too bad, but is still slightly below average. (1.9--- Almost Decent).

Warden- Light parry punish warrents 32dmg. A CC warrents 24dmg and also confirms a top light that acts as the 2nd light in the chain for an additional 13dmg. This totals up to 37dmg. I think this is very good considering you can potentially achieve more than a normal light parry punish against any attack from the top. I would say it's worth attempting a CC with Warden considering this damage number. Very high risk/high reward. (3.0--- Great).

Now let's move on to characters with deflects from worst to best, excluding Berserker, Kensei, and Zhanhu:

Peacekeeper- Her deflect deals 8 initial base damage and 12 bleed damage for a total of 20dmg. This is less than a normal heavy+bleed light. You'd be better off parrying lights instead for more damage. -1.0--- Bad, Intolerable).

Orochi- Unless you attempt to deflect heavies for a little more damage, it isn't worth it. A light deflect warrents 20dmg. A heavy deflect warrents 29dmg. This is bad since it would only really be possible to guarentee a heavy deflect from a light finisher. You'd be better off just parrying. It is now very unwise to attempt trading with any character that has chained hyper armor heavies. There is no plausible point to deflecting with Orochi.(-1.0--- Bad, Intolerable).

Nuxia- Her deflect deals 20dmg. It can even be blocked for some reason. This damage is just low and you'd be better off parrying any light or deflecting finishing heavies. (-1.0‐‐‐ Bad, Intolerable).

Shaolin- His deflects deal 20dmg. This literally makes no sense, as it's theoretically just a neutral heavy attack. Before the CCU changes it was just a quick heavy. Instead of parrying and wasting a couple seconds throwing that light parry punish, a deflect basically acted like a fast heavy for the same damage. I always thought it should have been more, but oh well. In this case, it deals only 20dmg instead of what should be 29dmg. It is absolutely not worth ever deflecting light attacks. (‐1.0‐‐‐ Bad, Intolerable).

Shinobi- His deflect deals a total of 5dmg without the kick. WITH the kick, you total up to 30dmg since the 25dmg ranged is guarenteed. This is still pitiful, and you're still better off just parrying lights and deflecting heavies. (1.1--- Bad, Intolerable).

Valkyrie- Her Shoulder Pin deals 1 initial base damage and 20 bleed damage, totaling to 21dmg. A side deflect against a static guard hero guarantees a top light for 9dmg, totaling to 30dmg. A top light after a deflect is always guarenteed against a reflex guars hero. This deflect damage is pitiful, and warrents 1 extra damage compared to a light parry punish. You're better off trying to deflect heavies instead, as it isn't really worth trying to do so with lights. (1.1--- Bad, Intolerable).

Shaman- Her deflect deals 20 bleed damage. I'm not too upset about this damage number actually, because her bleed stacks. Not to mention she can keep an infinite chain going, she has soft feints, and has pressure tools. Her deflect makes it easier to get her pounce, and it really just opens up more pressure. It's possible to get over 40+dmg rather quickly with Shaman when an opponent is bleeding. Besides, her deflect never really did too much damage before and is usually used to set up pounce opportunities. I think if it did more damage, she'd wittle down opponents really fast. (3.0--- Great).

Gladiator- The full deflect animation warrents 35dmg total. A neutral heavy is 26dmg. The new max skewer punish is just the full animation. Don't cancel out and forward-dodge light anymore, it isn't as much damage. If near a wall and you get your skewer, throw them into the wall at the very last second of the animation to get closer to 40dmg. Gladiator currently has the best deflect in the game. I'd say it is definitely worth attempting to deflect lights for more damage. (3.0‐‐‐ Great).

Overall, I believe this is just a simple and general damage value issue. Some of the values shown are either great, or below average. We want every value here to be at least a 2.0 or more.

Again, the point of attempting a deflect or Crushing Counter is either for more damage, potential ledges, or simply opening up some opportunities for more attacks. As of now, a lot of these values are pitiful and warrent so much less than what they used to in terms of opportunity.

I suppose the only argument that could be made against this is that most of the deflects and Crushing Counters allow you to start your own chain, and that's all they should be used for. However, there needs to be some feeling of risk and reward for special moves. If you attempt a CC and get light parried, guess what--- You're getting hit with a heavy. If you attempt a deflect and you get GB'd, guess what--- You're getting hit with a heavy or ledged.

I hope I was able to put this into perspective. Let's have a discussion about this and how you feel about high risk/high reward mindset.

[King_of_Xibalba]

excellent argument.

It summarizes what I have been thinking about high risk counters and the lack of motivation to attempt them,
Devs must check this ASAP.

[Astrad06]

I agree but only partially.

It is true that some values ​​are undoubtedly too low and do not push you to risk a CC or a deflect, but I do not agree on the great reward. The CC and deflect should be a way to interrupt the attacker's advance and to counterattack by taking the initiative. They shouldn't be an alternate attack phase as this would push players to turtling. I'm main Valkyrie and have had all the defensive kits available for a long time. Impalement following the deflect could completely reverse a fight. Something that I have always considered very incorrect towards those who manage to score 4-5 hits and find themselves at the starting point for 1 mistake. I talked about these defenses in another post calling them active defenses. A player's skill in using them should give a damage reversal advantage and initiative gain but not a free punish. To give an example: if my CC does the same damage as a light one but I take no damage while doing so and I gain initiative because the CC becomes a series starter that's great. I stop its attack phase and move on to the counterattack. This is the bonus I get. Not disproportionate flat damage that leads me to sit still and wait for the right moment to punish.

However this is just my opinion after using all the existing defensive kits on the same character for a long time.

[MCBooma16]

I agree but only partially.

It is true that some values ​​are undoubtedly too low and do not push you to risk a CC or a deflect, but I do not agree on the great reward. The CC and deflect should be a way to interrupt the attacker's advance and to counterattack by taking the initiative. They shouldn't be an alternate attack phase as this would push players to turtling. I'm main Valkyrie and have had all the defensive kits available for a long time. Impalement following the deflect could completely reverse a fight. Something that I have always considered very incorrect towards those who manage to score 4-5 hits and find themselves at the starting point for 1 mistake. I talked about these defenses in another post calling them active defenses. A player's skill in using them should give a damage reversal advantage and initiative gain but not a free punish. To give an example: if my CC does the same damage as a light one but I take no damage while doing so and I gain initiative because the CC becomes a series starter that's great. I stop its attack phase and move on to the counterattack. This is the bonus I get. Not disproportionate flat damage that leads me to sit still and wait for the right moment to punish.

However this is just my opinion after using all the existing defensive kits on the same character for a long time.

I see your point. I agree with your view with Valkyrie, as she has every possible chain available to her anyway. I think there's especially an issue with other characters, though, as the rest either have 2 chain combos or in Shaolin's case, immobility.

Deflects though, those need to hit harder.

There's an argument I saw in a video about having lights just do significantly less damage. 3 lights in most character's kits do more than 1 heavy. The argument was keep CC damage values higher but normal lights weak. This is a different topic but can kind of tie in to what I think should happen in the game.

[Astrad06]

Well then you could add a couple of chains that can be done after the deflects to the other characters as well. They would be much more dynamic. As I always argue I would prefer characters full of mixups instead of heroes like the BP (light bash light 80%). Yes 3 light does more damage than a heavy, but you have to land 3 hits, it should be harder to do (CCU aside) I also play wu lin and some assassins, and I remain of the opinion that you would rather have the same damage as a light but be able to continue the chain.

[Knight_Raime]

I will not touch on specific examples here as even though I have a semi good grasp on hero kits it's mainly on the mechanical level. I've never really been good at discussing or thinking on damage numbers. I largely go off of feelings in that case. I will say from a general sense I can agree that most damage values need to be tweaked.

For deflecting I could entertain the idea of them hitting a bit harder than they do now for some assassins. Not sure about all of them though.

As far as crushing counters/superior blocks though I can't really agree to buffing them beyond where they already are. I'd like some to be nerfed actually.
This is because you can use back lights as a super safe option for some of them. For instance my main man BP can back light and be completely safe while he does it.
This ranges anywhere from stuffing a parry attempt to actually doing the CC. In short because you can use some crushing counters rather safely and defensively I can't agree to buffing them.
I think the fact that they get any extra damage at all is icing on the cake. And that they can continue chains is really the power behind them.

[MCBooma16]

I will not touch on specific examples here as even though I have a semi good grasp on hero kits it's mainly on the mechanical level. I've never really been good at discussing or thinking on damage numbers. I largely go off of feelings in that case. I will say from a general sense I can agree that most damage values need to be tweaked.

For deflecting I could entertain the idea of them hitting a bit harder than they do now for some assassins. Not sure about all of them though.

As far as crushing counters/superior blocks though I can't really agree to buffing them beyond where they already are. I'd like some to be nerfed actually.
This is because you can use back lights as a super safe option for some of them. For instance my main man BP can back light and be completely safe while he does it.
This ranges anywhere from stuffing a parry attempt to actually doing the CC. In short because you can use some crushing counters rather safely and defensively I can't agree to buffing them.
I think the fact that they get any extra damage at all is icing on the cake. And that they can continue chains is really the power behind them.

You're probably right. Maybe I'm just salty at the idea of the once powerful CCs doing so little now. I think you're right about there not needing to be an insane amount of damage. Valkyrie's lights are pretty darn quick imo, and has every imaginable chain combo possible. She probably doesn't need a change to CC damage if I'm completely honest.

Characters like BP and HL with backstep capabilities are problematic, though. I'd say HL is worse to deal with in that respect, just because BP's moves are simply more reactable. He/she also has less chains.

I'd be fine leaving Warden's the way it is simply because he can't do it from the right and left sides.

As for deflects, I honestly think those must hit harder. Much harder. You can't accidentally do a deflect with most characters, except for Orochi, Nuxia, and Shaolin, as their dodge light or heavy attacks are the same input for a deflect.

Gladiator and Shaman have the best deflects right now. Gladiator's was unchanged mostly, and Shaman can just quickly stack her bleed and heal off of bleeding opponents. I'd say Shaman's deflect remains mostly unchanged, as well. Other than that, I think everyone else's deflect should probably do at least 30% more damage. Most of them right now only deal as much as a heavy or 30%-35% LESS than a heavy, which makes them pointless really.

[Knight_Raime]

You're probably right. Maybe I'm just salty at the idea of the once powerful CCs doing so little now. I think you're right about there not needing to be an insane amount of damage. Valkyrie's lights are pretty darn quick imo, and has every imaginable chain combo possible. She probably doesn't need a change to CC damage if I'm completely honest.

Characters like BP and HL with backstep capabilities are problematic, though. I'd say HL is worse to deal with in that respect, just because BP's moves are simply more reactable. He/she also has less chains.

I'd be fine leaving Warden's the way it is simply because he can't do it from the right and left sides.

As for deflects, I honestly think those must hit harder. Much harder. You can't accidentally do a deflect with most characters, except for Orochi, Nuxia, and Shaolin, as their dodge light or heavy attacks are the same input for a deflect.

Gladiator and Shaman have the best deflects right now. Gladiator's was unchanged mostly, and Shaman can just quickly stack her bleed and heal off of bleeding opponents. I'd say Shaman's deflect remains mostly unchanged, as well. Other than that, I think everyone else's deflect should probably do at least 30% more damage. Most of them right now only deal as much as a heavy or 30%-35% LESS than a heavy, which makes them pointless really.

Well back step attacks are apart of a larger problem in the game where kits mostly don't have ways to deal with spacing. If I could i'd like purposefully whiffing attacks to be removed from the game. But I can't really think of a clean way to address it. I've always just sort of hoped that if the devs ever bothered to comb over the cast and adjust everyone's tracking and range values to make more sense that the problem would solve itself. But i've no way of actually knowing. Highlander is actually better at whiffing now because his in chain light is faster. This essentially allows him to punish people attempting to whiff punish him. But in my opinion the worst offender is BP. Followed maybe By warlord. But he doesn't use it particularly often since he can't really delay bash inputs to extend the reach of his bash. At least not as much as BP can.

I'd have to disagree with Warden since he gets two guaranteed attacks and moves directly into his bash offense. Rather in his situation i'd like it if he could CC on all sides. But they wouldn't chain into his bash. I would also like to somehow incorperate that extra light into something more thematic for Warden but i've not given much thought into it what with me not really playing anymore.


I kind of feel like deflecting is easier now to be honest. Not really because they buffed deflecting in anyway but it's going to be standard muscle memory for the average player to dodge on reaction after eating a light. At least from my experiences deflects seemed to be more frequent. But I digress. The only deflect I can think of off the top of my head that needs buffing is Nuxia's unless they change her mechanic. Orochi I think wind gust should stay the way it is damage wise. Maybe hurricane blast could be buffed a bit but idk. Shaman's is a special case in that her recovery off of deflect is so bonkers that she can continue to rapidly deflect. I wish all assassins could do this. Either by making their recoveries so much better or simply allowing them to dodge cancel the recovery of their deflects.

Deflects like full blocks are really for situational punishes because they are typically more defensive in nature. Full blocks block multiple directions where as deflect attacks can be used as option selecting since you can dodge option select with dodge attacks. Buffing damage for some might be appropriate but i've always wanted more utility out of deflects than damage. Glad's having an extended pin for ganks or cutting it early for extra damage via a dodge top light, Zerk's being a GB, shaolin deflecting for a trade into qi for situational CC's...If we could some how extend that kind of thing to other deflects then that would be awesome.

[MCBooma16]

Well back step attacks are apart of a larger problem in the game where kits mostly don't have ways to deal with spacing. If I could i'd like purposefully whiffing attacks to be removed from the game. But I can't really think of a clean way to address it. I've always just sort of hoped that if the devs ever bothered to comb over the cast and adjust everyone's tracking and range values to make more sense that the problem would solve itself. But i've no way of actually knowing. Highlander is actually better at whiffing now because his in chain light is faster. This essentially allows him to punish people attempting to whiff punish him. But in my opinion the worst offender is BP. Followed maybe By warlord. But he doesn't use it particularly often since he can't really delay bash inputs to extend the reach of his bash. At least not as much as BP can.

I'd have to disagree with Warden since he gets two guaranteed attacks and moves directly into his bash offense. Rather in his situation i'd like it if he could CC on all sides. But they wouldn't chain into his bash. I would also like to somehow incorperate that extra light into something more thematic for Warden but i've not given much thought into it what with me not really playing anymore.


I kind of feel like deflecting is easier now to be honest. Not really because they buffed deflecting in anyway but it's going to be standard muscle memory for the average player to dodge on reaction after eating a light. At least from my experiences deflects seemed to be more frequent. But I digress. The only deflect I can think of off the top of my head that needs buffing is Nuxia's unless they change her mechanic. Orochi I think wind gust should stay the way it is damage wise. Maybe hurricane blast could be buffed a bit but idk. Shaman's is a special case in that her recovery off of deflect is so bonkers that she can continue to rapidly deflect. I wish all assassins could do this. Either by making their recoveries so much better or simply allowing them to dodge cancel the recovery of their deflects.

Deflects like full blocks are really for situational punishes because they are typically more defensive in nature. Full blocks block multiple directions where as deflect attacks can be used as option selecting since you can dodge option select with dodge attacks. Buffing damage for some might be appropriate but i've always wanted more utility out of deflects than damage. Glad's having an extended pin for ganks or cutting it early for extra damage via a dodge top light, Zerk's being a GB, shaolin deflecting for a trade into qi for situational CC's...If we could some how extend that kind of thing to other deflects then that would be awesome.

I see what you mean. With the way deflects are naturally, it's difficult to think of how more of a utility function could be, well, utilized in terms of implementation. Glad's full deflect punish is just the entire skewer animation. You can't get extra damage anymore since lights don't do as much damage. Cutting it short and using a top light instead warrents about 10 to 15 less damage. Glad, Valkyrie, and Zerk are really good examples of utility deflects. Zerk and Valk can get GBs from deflects, and with an aware teammate you're basically putting up to 45dmg or more from heavies.

Just the other day as I was ganking, my Gladiator teammate ended up getting his deflect skewer. He held it, and I was able to whiff light into chained zone for a combined team damage of over 70dmg. I think stuff like that is cool to see. Valkyrie's Shoulder pin can kind of do that but every time I've tried her superior dodge deflect in a gank it usually gets interrupted.

I have a huge issue with Shaolin's deflect because it does 9dmg less than a heavy. Yes you can flow to Qi and continue chains, but you can do that just by parrying, too... Even if you trade there's always a possibility it won't be a good one due to HA and opponents having generally much stronger heavies. Shaolin's deflect dealing less genuinely makes no sense.

[Knight_Raime]

I see what you mean. With the way deflects are naturally, it's difficult to think of how more of a utility function could be, well, utilized in terms of implementation. Glad's full deflect punish is just the entire skewer animation. You can't get extra damage anymore since lights don't do as much damage. Cutting it short and using a top light instead warrents about 10 to 15 less damage. Glad, Valkyrie, and Zerk are really good examples of utility deflects. Zerk and Valk can get GBs from deflects, and with an aware teammate you're basically putting up to 45dmg or more from heavies.

Just the other day as I was ganking, my Gladiator teammate ended up getting his deflect skewer. He held it, and I was able to whiff light into chained zone for a combined team damage of over 70dmg. I think stuff like that is cool to see. Valkyrie's Shoulder pin can kind of do that but every time I've tried her superior dodge deflect in a gank it usually gets interrupted.

I have a huge issue with Shaolin's deflect because it does 9dmg less than a heavy. Yes you can flow to Qi and continue chains, but you can do that just by parrying, too... Even if you trade there's always a possibility it won't be a good one due to HA and opponents having generally much stronger heavies. Shaolin's deflect dealing less genuinely makes no sense.

Well good to know. With pk's deflect i've always wanted it to combine the current left over bleed damage on top of the deflect's damage. So she could do more damage on her deflect but lose her enhanced bleeds since this would cleanse all current bleed damage. Orochi's deflect kinda already has utility with the things you can do during his heavy deflect. Shaman inherently has utility because it enables her bite mix ups. Kind of just leaves utility for Nuxia and shinobi to figure out.

Yeah shaolin's damage on deflect deff needs a buff. I think if certain qi moves were better it would give more use to his deflect.