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  1. #1

    Shugoki and shaman shouldn't have heal moves in their kit. Change my mind.

    There's nothing fun about having to fight a hero that constantly can get health back from part of their kit. It's extremely unbalanced. I dont know why moves like these are considered a good idea, they just ruin the whole experience. I would much rather the moves deal damage and give stamina back. They should not heal at all. It was a stupid decision when you added them to the hero and it's a stupid decision now

    I can't wait for this post to get ignored by the devs because they clearly dont care about community feedback. The CCU clearly proved that.
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  2. #2
    Not like they are spammable and unpunishable, and they heal back quite a low amount/succesful hits (the maximum amounts a shugoki ever pulled off a hug on me/round is 2, you basically do whatever you want with him if he misses- I think you might even get off a confirmed Catapult strike in 4s). This is not a real issue, many other games have characters with selfheal, they are not necessarily more imbalanced than others (unless the numbers are not right, like Sages/Sorcerers in SWTOR, but I have seen many game where the hero with selfheal was pathetically weak because that selfheal was restricted and nothing compared to incoming damage).

    The devs could indeed stop ignoring the problems, but once the mods will have a chance to write replies, they should focus on real issues, not on this.
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  3. #3
    Shaman's bite is fine imo, I just think it does too much damage and it needs to regen your stamina as well like Jorm or Cent.
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  4. #4
    yea shaman is just fine, she is an assasin and all assasin needs all the help they can get.

    Shugos "heal" is not a heal. pre rework, now that was a proper heal!
    now he heals less then a light hit, it is only stamina regen.
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  5. #5
    If there was any reason to ignore your post it would be because all you do is make an empirical claim with barely anything to back your argument and you rarely interact with the posts people make in your threads. You basically just use the forum as your personal soap box to rant and then leave.


    OT I disagree. We still have high damage so it's not like you can't undo the heal progress they make. And even if the devs decide to hold their end of the bargin and actually give use the higher ttk that we had on TG week 2 I still wouldn't argue for it's removal anymore than i'd argue for bashes to no longer do stamina damage. We could lessen the heal but it's never been game changing.
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  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    If there was any reason to ignore your post it would be because all you do is make an empirical claim with barely anything to back your argument and you rarely interact with the posts people make in your threads. You basically just use the forum as your personal soap box to rant and then leave.


    OT I disagree. We still have high damage so it's not like you can't undo the heal progress they make. And even if the devs decide to hold their end of the bargin and actually give use the higher ttk that we had on TG week 2 I still wouldn't argue for it's removal anymore than i'd argue for bashes to no longer do stamina damage. We could lessen the heal but it's never been game changing.
    I wont deny that I use this forum to rant a lot, but I do truly think that having a mechanic that heals the opponent goes against what ubisoft is aiming for.

    Shugoki's hug:
    It's a move that they've had to put significantly bad recoveries on it because it's a move that damages, heals and gives back stamina to the shugoki. The move would be a lot better if they just removed the heal portion of the move, and lower the recovery time to bring it in line with other heroes. Sure it's not much heal, but with the CCU changes nerfing damage across the board, it makes fighting a shugoki all that more frustrating as if you make a wrong read, you lose progress in the fight at the same time the shugoki gains progress. I'm not against the hug move itself, just the heal portion.
    Shaman's attacks/Bite:
    Sure the heal is low, but with attacks now being faster, getting the bleed, as well as getting health back is now much easier for the person playing shaman. She has a tier 4 feat as part of her kit, which is what I dont like about the hero. I'm not against assassins getting more help, but having health return on attacks isn't balanced, as the shaman is gaining health for no increase in risk. I would be fine if the move gave stamina on hit, I think that would be an acceptable change without ruining the hero's style.

    Basically my view is all moves that give health should give stamina instead, as that doesn't reset the progress of fights as much. It also still makes the moves unique.
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by TheUberDome Go to original post
    I wont deny that I use this forum to rant a lot, but I do truly think that having a mechanic that heals the opponent goes against what ubisoft is aiming for.

    Shugoki's hug:
    It's a move that they've had to put significantly bad recoveries on it because it's a move that damages, heals and gives back stamina to the shugoki. The move would be a lot better if they just removed the heal portion of the move, and lower the recovery time to bring it in line with other heroes. Sure it's not much heal, but with the CCU changes nerfing damage across the board, it makes fighting a shugoki all that more frustrating as if you make a wrong read, you lose progress in the fight at the same time the shugoki gains progress. I'm not against the hug move itself, just the heal portion.
    Shaman's attacks/Bite:
    Sure the heal is low, but with attacks now being faster, getting the bleed, as well as getting health back is now much easier for the person playing shaman. She has a tier 4 feat as part of her kit, which is what I dont like about the hero. I'm not against assassins getting more help, but having health return on attacks isn't balanced, as the shaman is gaining health for no increase in risk. I would be fine if the move gave stamina on hit, I think that would be an acceptable change without ruining the hero's style.

    Basically my view is all moves that give health should give stamina instead, as that doesn't reset the progress of fights as much. It also still makes the moves unique.
    They basically still forgot that shug has around 2 second of recovery which allows for pretty much the highest punish, at some point they will just fix the recovery so you get a GB.

    If you make a wrong read and lose progress then this is honestly your own fault. (Espically aginst Shugs hug)
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by TheUberDome Go to original post
    I wont deny that I use this forum to rant a lot, but I do truly think that having a mechanic that heals the opponent goes against what ubisoft is aiming for.

    Shugoki's hug:
    It's a move that they've had to put significantly bad recoveries on it because it's a move that damages, heals and gives back stamina to the shugoki. The move would be a lot better if they just removed the heal portion of the move, and lower the recovery time to bring it in line with other heroes. Sure it's not much heal, but with the CCU changes nerfing damage across the board, it makes fighting a shugoki all that more frustrating as if you make a wrong read, you lose progress in the fight at the same time the shugoki gains progress. I'm not against the hug move itself, just the heal portion.
    Shaman's attacks/Bite:
    Sure the heal is low, but with attacks now being faster, getting the bleed, as well as getting health back is now much easier for the person playing shaman. She has a tier 4 feat as part of her kit, which is what I dont like about the hero. I'm not against assassins getting more help, but having health return on attacks isn't balanced, as the shaman is gaining health for no increase in risk. I would be fine if the move gave stamina on hit, I think that would be an acceptable change without ruining the hero's style.

    Basically my view is all moves that give health should give stamina instead, as that doesn't reset the progress of fights as much. It also still makes the moves unique.

    I mean that logic worked for Goki's hug back when goki could heal most of his HP while deleting most of yours. Rework'ed goki's hug didn't keep the recovery for balance reasons. At least I'd hope not. As the mixup itself is rather poor and the heal AFAIK has never been more than a heavie's worth of damage post rework. I could only see your argument in one scenario. And that would be if we were back to TG week 2 damage values on heavies but lights were as weak as they currently are on CCU. And not because the heal itself would be too strong but more so I would be looking at the HP swing. Currently his hug does 25 damage with a 20hp heal. That's a 45 health swing. That would be a bit high in those circumstances. But not in current ones as we still have attacks that regularly hit around 40+ damage.


    For shaman's case i'm quite curious on why you don't take issue with Tiandi. I know i'm bending the rules a bit here by talking about something else first but still. Tiandi has better survivability than Shaman does because he's far better defensively and has 2 feats that give him a shield and let him heal with attack hits. Anyway in shaman's case a double light does 16 damage for 8hp or first half of zone for 18 damage and 8hp. That's 24-26hp swing. Which is less than most heavies currently. And the heal itself is about a single lights worth of damage currently. Unless you're constantly eating double hits the heal isn't really ever going to get out of hand. Most characters are still going to do more damage with one heavy via a light parry punish or GB punish than what she'll likely heal on average.

    Her bite on the other hand is a 60hp swing (40 dmg+ 20 heal.) In this case I could see an argument to nerf her heal her much in the same way I previously mentioned for Goki. But of the 3 instances of heal mentioned here today I think this would be the only one I could see nerfing in current CCU. This is because it's a lot harder to counter Shaman ganks than just shaman on her own or just goki in general. Meaning the bite is likely going to land. And because we can guarantee a heavy after the bite by an ally for full damage it's absurd. Personally speaking i'd rather they just nerfed the damage of the bite to something like 30 before nerfing the heal. But realistically both could be nerfed and I wouldn't be entirely against it.


    My problem with your solution of outright removal is just that it's not supported in the games current state. The health swings to average damage ratio just doesn't support it. I can acknowledge that in lower brackets of play that having any progress reset feels a lot worse and the potential for this to be more obnoxious is amplified since in these brackets most don't grasp the basics of play. So it feels like you're just fighting a boss rather than a player. But I don't find it to be horrible enough to warrant removal. And i'd rather just feints universally give stamina back if we're going to lean into that vein more than for moves like cent pounce and the like.
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  9. #9
    stop crying and git gud
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by allenhollow Go to original post
    stop crying and git gud
    It's comments like this that ruins any credibility of these forums. You dont seem to have the brain cells capable of making any constructive criticism like the other people on this thread, so you make inane and dull comments like this. Go waste your time elsewhere, because I doubt you have anything smart to say.
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