Testing grounds: Fight system improvements debrief | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

Indicator and/or animation changes directly correlate to reaction windows changing, which is common sense. Shaving off 100ms of the UB indicator is a huge change on how opponents can or cannot react to them having to make a choice, regardless of whether the move itself is still 500ms. As for the dodge attacks, most are going to be lengthened by 33ms, as stated on the Den - not an indicator change, a prolonged animation. Prior and Warlord somewhat consistently recover their guard in time to block a standard dodge attack that was done on reaction to indicator on live, so having way less time to make a guess and have a slower dodge attack would make the block rate higher.

Let me make this clear since you seem to be misunderstanding the changes. A 500ms attack on live has a 333ms reaction window. That 333ms reaction window does not change with the CCU as the indicator and animation changes do not change this. It's a purely visual change. Things will look faster but not actually be faster. As far as the dodge attack goes idk why you're mentioning indicators as I didn't mention them. They are slowing them by 33ms with the intent that if you can react to them on live right now you'll be able to react to them on TG.
It was a targeted change to address dodge attack complaints since people defaulted to doing so mid chain.

[EvoX.]

Let me make this clear since you seem to be misunderstanding the changes. A 500ms attack on live has a 333ms reaction window. That 333ms reaction window does not change with the CCU as the indicator and animation changes do not change this. It's a purely visual change. Things will look faster but not actually be faster. As far as the dodge attack goes idk why you're mentioning indicators as I didn't mention them. They are slowing them by 33ms with the intent that if you can react to them on live right now you'll be able to react to them on TG.
It was a targeted change to address dodge attack complaints since people defaulted to doing so mid chain.

A visual change is a huge detriment for reaction, are you kidding me? I'm 100% certain I've heard Clutch and Setmyx say they react based on indicators. That in combination with their very low reaction time is how they somewhat conistently dodge 500ms bash mixup heroes on live, not because of its animation. People react to indicators, and their specific reaction to what's coming is reinforced by its animation. So -100ms on the visual stimulus of what's about to come is a massive, massive increase in avoidance difficulty.

Anyway, let me make clear what I tried to in my original post. It's not the fact that I have to make a read that concerns me, it's the fact that I won't have time to register the moment when I'm supposed to make that read. I'm fine with Centurion, Kiri, Warden's mixups, I'm looking forward to Warmonger, who will also have that kind of mixup. I'm fine with playing against Shaman's bash, not complaining about future PK, Valk, heroes that will have offense become unreactable. But all these heroes have a tell on when you have to guess, then both players make their read and it's fair game. What happens if there's no tell? You just get blitzed with unreactable bashes from neutral, and you have to resort to panic lights/dodging? Again, I didn't manage to play against a 500ms basher on TG, but it sounds like for the first time in For Honor we'll have unreactable bash offense from neutral without reactable movement preceding it. So nothing in my post was pointing to me no longer being able to react to those bashes because I was never reacting to them, I was always either guessing right or wrong. My fear is that I won't be able to register when I'm supposed to be making that guess.

[King_of_Xibalba]

Probably because it would be too oppressive to let pk have enhanced 400ms combo lights with a combo UB finisher. Would put a lot of emphasis on parrying to stop pk and we really don't want that.

I don't think Orochi getting an UB like this will do much for him. The general treatement of him in this update feels like a token effort instead of actually addressing the hero's issues and making him more fun to play as and against.

Yes I suspected the same when I saw the unblockable top is also with a slower light chains for Orochi. So is somewhat a trade off.

Still I want some tools for her but first I need to play Core combat update at least for 2 weeks to evaluate what she needs and if she needs something. I did really fine with testing grounds but we will see.

[King_of_Xibalba]

I don't see how that makes it seem better really. If the attack was fast at the beginning but then slowed down mid animation that would arguably mess with me more than just getting used to part of an animation now. It's certainly not the most elegant fix but I don't think they've the resources to do a more clean one. Perhaps once this year of making the game better is over (or sometime before support for the game ends) they can do a pass on animations and smooth them out a bit.

IIRC they did something similar with Raider after all of the complaints. It's not 100% free of jank but it looks a lot better than it initially did post rework.

I agree with the Raider part, but I think is achievable a late fix for animations as You said. And when the pandemic crisis allows it. No bashing the devs here.

Not necesarily agree with the first part as I don't see also how fix this with skipping frames is better than just making faster animations aesthetically speaking, but I see your technical point , it could be potentially unnatural for our perception of(simulated) movement to do so. Not janky per se but potentially very confusing, yes.

My technical skills are not fit for looking a solution really. Also My English is not great so excuse me in advance if my messages are not so clear or appear contradictory. Maybe devs could figure what to do in the future with animations.

[Knight_Raime]

Yes I suspected the same when I saw the unblockable top is also with a slower light chains for Orochi. So is somewhat a trade off.

Still I want some tools for her but first I need to play Core combat update at least for 2 weeks to evaluate what she needs and if she needs something. I did really fine with testing grounds but we will see.

If Pk were to get some kind of buff post CCU i'd just give her the ability to dagger cancel in any direction. The nerf she's getting to her zone means her zone should be treated as a heavy parry punish again. Hopefully that's done sooner than later. If she were to get an unblockable i'd probably put it as the second half of her zone. But really aside from the former two changes I don't think she needs much.

I agree with the Raider part, but I think is achievable a late fix for animations as You said. And when the pandemic crisis allows it. No bashing the devs here.

Not necesarily agree with the first part as I don't see also how fix this with skipping frames is better than just making faster animations aesthetically speaking, but I see your technical point , it could be potentially unnatural for our perception of(simulated) movement to do so. Not janky per se but potentially very confusing, yes.

My technical skills are not fit for looking a solution really. Also My English is not great so excuse me in advance if my messages are not so clear or appear contradictory. Maybe devs could figure what to do in the future with animations.

The idea of my logic is if the animation is janky but always the same level of jank it will be consistent. Which means it would be easier to recognize. Where as having the animation be two different speeds at once means it wouldn't be one consistent move through the whole thing. Which would throw me off more. I'm not sure of the technical verbiage myself but Janky animations can be caused by poor animation blending. I do not know what goes into that. But i'd assume that's what they polished up to make Raider's more tollerable.

[Qoissant]

If Pk were to get some kind of buff post CCU i'd just give her the ability to dagger cancel in any direction. The nerf she's getting to her zone means her zone should be treated as a heavy parry punish again. Hopefully that's done sooner than later. If she were to get an unblockable i'd probably put it as the second half of her zone.

But even if it was 500ms shouldn't it be a light punish? Or because it is so predictable and her main focal point should it be less punishable?

[Knight_Raime]

But even if it was 500ms shouldn't it be a light punish? Or because it is so predictable and her main focal point should it be less punishable?

It's more so to make it on equal grounds with the rest of the cast. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other hero who has a zone that gives a light parry punish. Her's originally didn't either. But the devs made it a light parry punish at one point to balance the power that it had. Because she's now going to lose that power it just makes sense to reverse the punish change.

[Qoissant]

It's more so to make it on equal grounds with the rest of the cast. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other hero who has a zone that gives a light parry punish. Her's originally didn't either. But the devs made it a light parry punish at one point to balance the power that it had. Because she's now going to lose that power it just makes sense to reverse the punish change.

i forgot that there are 500ms zones like warden and kensei which i am surprised don't have heavy punishes due to their speed and viability as an option select. I think most are 600ms which would make sense as to why they only give lights but then its not like most zones are chainable so there's another reason to argue why they should only be a light punish

[Knight_Raime]

i forgot that there are 500ms zones like warden and kensei which i am surprised don't have heavy punishes due to their speed and viability as an option select. I think most are 600ms which would make sense as to why they only give lights but then its not like most zones are chainable so there's another reason to argue why they should only be a light punish

I think with the changes coming in the CCU I could see the argument for making zones light parry punishes since those would be mostly toned down. But personally if we were trying to nerf zone OS's i'd rather they just remove the ability to parry with them instead.

[MrBdur]

I think with the changes coming in the CCU I could see the argument for making zones light parry punishes since those would be mostly toned down. But personally if we were trying to nerf zone OS's i'd rather they just remove the ability to parry with them instead.

Zones really shouldn't parry.

Also, somewhere in here I saw complaints about orochis lights being slowed and light stam going up. With the stamina rework, lights increasing in stam cost wont be so bad.