Developer Update: Chaos, but make it Cute | Forums

[Nousella]

3. Other assassins and swarms can make it to enemy NK and typically you have to deal with them or lose a large chunk or full bar of health. That isn’t quite the case with Hamster. Depending on levels of course, 4-6 NK zaps to clear them and they aren’t likely to take a full bar. That’s not the assassin threat I was expecting. The obvious comparison card is Gnomes, and even though they sum to about the same attack and health, the additional gnome makes a big difference due to the speed of enemy hits. Gnomes will just land more hits because the collective attack power will last longer, requiring the same number 6 hits to zap away. I’m not convinced the Hamster spell/ability immunity is worth the 1 fewer bodies. By quick calculation, the gnomes will land 10 hits in the same time the Hamsters will do 7 hits, a 30% higher number of hits, but the hamsters don’t do 30% higher damage per attack. Comparing each at max L4 shows Hamsters only hit about 12% harder. So for sake or argument assume gnomes do 10 hits at 70= 700 damage in their lifespan. The hamsters will hit for roughly 7 hits at 79 damage= 553.
Someone please check my math here, again I’m using a single card point-level, the results will vary a little using other level points.

I am not sure you have considered another factor which regards all swarm units, as they die they lose the damage output, obviously, so, for example, let's compare hamster, gnomes and another assassin vs any target that one shot one single unit and survive one cycle of their hits (anything but another swarm or the nk zap), and assume they had the same attack speed: while hamsters land one hit they get hit once, loosing half of their output, while gnomes only lose 1/3 of their output and another assassin loses 0.

This would look a bit like this, with numbers just to ease what truly matter is the percentage, if the real number are well scaled:

what happen to hamsters:
1.1 hamsters both attack for 20 damage, 10 each (100%)
1.2 they get hit, one dies
2.2 hamster left attack for 10 damage (50%)
2.2 gets hit, hamster dies

what happen to gnomes:
1.1 gnomes attack for 7 each, 21 damage (100%)
1.2 they get hit, one dies
2.1 gnomes left attack for 14 damages (66%)
2.2 they get hit, one dies
3.1 gnome left attack for 7 damage (33%)
3.2 gets hit, gnome dies

what happens with a normal assassin, Choirboy Butter for same cost but doesn't really matter, what matter is that a normal assassin can still land at least 2 hits:
1 Butter attacks for 20 (100%)
2 gets hit, doesn't die
3 Butter hit for 20 (100%)
4 gets hit, butter dies

If we consider same attack speeds and 3 attack cycles: hamster deal 150% damage, gnomes 200%, Butter 200%; if we count 2 attack cycles the only difference is in gnomes dealing 166%, still more than hamsters.
This 16% could be seen as the real worth cost of that immunity they have (which seems to be partial, less than Tupperware, I have read but not seen yet). This would sound fair to me, but then there is the attack speed factor which says its share, and hamsters are quite slow and probably manage to overall hit for less. Plus they do not fully benefit from Bradley, which today is a huge thing for assassins, sure it is something to consider when including them in the deck

END, unless..
The same could be applied vs nk zap: how much output percentage do the comparable units lose in the same time span due to zaps? Here also the total units health and attack speed matter a lot, but, ideally:

2 zaps do not kill hamster, -0%
2 zaps kill one gnome, -33%
2 zaps do not kill Butter, -0%
if by this time they have all hit once for 100% damage: hamster 20(2 hits), gnome 21(3 hits), Butter 20 (1 hit)

3 zaps kill one hamster, -50%
3 zaps kill one gnome and a half, -33%
3 zaps do not kill Butter, -0%
no additional attack

4 zaps kill one hamster - -50%
4 zaps kill two gnomes - -66%
4 zaps do not kill Butter - -0%
if by this time they hit a second time this look like: hamster did 150%=30(3 hits), gnomes 166%=35(5 hits), Butter 200&, 40(2 hits)

6 zaps kill two hamster - -100% or 4 hits=40
6 zaps kill three gnome - -100% or 6 hits=42
6 zaps do not kill Butter - -100% or 3 hits=60
if in this time they have all hit a third time this look like: hamster did 200%=40(4 hits), gnomes 199%=42(6 hits), Butter 300%=60(3 hits)

Here hamsters will be on pair with gnomes but then again, attack speed is a minus, immunity a plus, no full interaction with Bradley another minus.

(I am not sure I demonstrated anything with this but is done and I post it.)

My thoughts:
Not every card has to be op, as in every theme some are just filler and unused cards. Sure, will be better if every card had its place but since this isn't the case for any theme, SH shouldn't be an exception just because cards are coming anew, and they all must be made competitive.. or maybe it does, since after 1 year is playing with less options.
I like the new card, is usable, is decent, is ok, but they should hit faster, like other swarms OR funny thing, since they are immune to Bradley, 'if Chaos or Disarray are on the field their speed gets boosted'.

[ScottOld]

I was running Liane during the event, Hamsters very useful with her on the field. but SH as are still complete and utter trash in the current meta (low cost spam), but fares very well against decks that sit and slow push (the sit behind zen with ranged) etc, where you can build up coon

the only thing though, it says they are immune to abilities.. why doesn't this include knockback?

[Echomute]

I don’t agree with your math comparing how many hits gnomes can land vs hamsters when fighting a NK. You are forgetting the approach zaps: on approach the NK will hit approximately 2-3 times before the hamsters or gnomes will start hitting. One of the gnomes will die after getting 1 hit in and the other 2 will keep going. In their approach, both hamsters will live but the first might only get 1 or 2 hits before dying, leaving the second one. The bottom line appears to be that Hamsters will hit in the neighborhood of (let’s be generous) 15% harder but for 30% fewer hits, meaning all things being equal, gnomes deal superior damage.

Also, I really appreciate you calculating and quantifying the amount of attack “sacrifice” given to compensate for the immunity. I hadn’t thought of it lack that. Thanks for doing that.

I’m not looking for Hamsters to be OP, but I am looking for parity among similarly costed cards and card types. My math says that all things being equal, gnomes will outlast and out damage the hamsters.
I also looked at Hamsters vs another 2 cost Butters assassins, and the Butters assassins are superior when run against an undefended NK. The speed of Butters assassins will take an undefended bar, no question. I ran several more battles and Hamsters could take maybe half a bar to 2/3 at best from an undefended New Kid before they pop.
This may apply to other swarms as well and I’ve never noticed it, but today I also noticed that Hamsters do not attack at the same time like T&P do, they alternate their attacks even when they both reach the same target at the same time. It could just be optics or lag or my luck, but several times I watch them basically taking turns hitting wondering why the hell that was happening.

I also noticed the Hamsters are not immune to knock back, and they should be based on the concept.

If all my observations are correct, Hamsters won’t see much play.

[ScottOld]

Hamsters have their uses, but need to be 6 they were quite good at blocking dougies as a note

[Echomute]

Hamsters have their uses, but need to be 6 they were quite good at blocking dougies as a note

I agree. This was the best use I found for Hamsters, specifically for use against Engineer Dougie, they fight through the freeze and can take down a L6 Dougie before losing a bar. The trick was placing them close enough to your NK, but far enough away do they hit the Dougie while he’s still running, so they get 2 hits in, 2 more while Dougie is taking first swing, and then 1/2 after that swing to finish him.
Not sure they can take down a L7 Dougie though.

Other than that, and aside from using them as basic assassins when someone is occupied in a fight, they are nothing special so far. If the game had more status effects, maybe they’d be worth playing. We will see after the release hype dwindles if they get much play, and I’m betting people will continue using paladin butters, gnomes, Jimmy, and SWT as their 2 cost choices.

[Machete_Chills]

nothing beats The Chompa as the Douglas-sweeper.
cannot be taken down with spells and units.
cannot be stopped.
cannot poop out.

[Cural42]

This may apply to other swarms as well and I’ve never noticed it, but today I also noticed that Hamsters do not attack at the same time like T&P do, they alternate their attacks even when they both reach the same target at the same time. It could just be optics or lag or my luck, but several times I watch them basically taking turns hitting wondering why the hell that was happening.

That's more likely just a placement and timing thing. T&P are spawned side by side, so their attacks are in sync. With the hamsters, I've noticed one tends to be slightly ahead of the other when they're moving towards an enemy, so the first one to reach an opponent attacks, then the other gets there and attacks as the first one is preparing for its next attack.

You can do the same thing with T&P as well. Place a unit where only one of them is able to attack, forcing one to walk around the other to reach the unit, and their attacks will no longer sync up.

[Echomute]

I figured it was placement as well, causing the hamsters to do alternate hits, but now that I’ve played them in probably a 60 matches, I’ve never seen them hit at the same time. Again, it could just be optics or the animation, and sometimes you cannot see them hitting at all because they are small and obscured. Still, it’s weird. They clearly “jump” when the attack, but they don’t do it at the same time. I send both side by side at NK and one hits first, then the other.