Lawbringer hate? | Forums

[PRAETORlAN]

Hello!

This might be a noob question, but I'm a semi-noob myself (even tho I own the game since launch I took a loooooong break from it, and only "returned" like 2 weeks ago)... So I keep hearing Lawbringer mentioned as god-tier, people hating on it, etcetcetc, and yet I rarely meet Lawbringers (even rarely good ones), and everytime I want to give it a chance again I get disappointed, again (I want to main him, as I "fell in love" with him in the beta, but I always end up playing another hero).

So, my question is, what exactly make Lawbringer a so hated, supposed-to-be S tier champion?

Seriously I feel like if people would call a gun OP in an FPS game, but then I'd rarely see people use that gun, the ones that use it would have terrible stats, and I wouldn't seem to be able to hit people with it, either...

[Gaser.]

To summon it up quick:

-Highest Hp Pool in the game
-Some of the highest Parry punishes in the game
-400ms top light which can negate pretty much any combo pressure
- Shove and Zone have pretty much no recovery, that means if you even attempt to punish Lb with a dodge attack and do it just a bit to late he has a high chance of even parrying that. (Zone having no recovery matters because if he unlocks while throwing a zone in the minion lane it becomes unpunishable for every hero who does not have a full block counter)
- 300ms Running impale which can cause ridiculous gank situation (bomb throw, teammate keeps enemy in place, bomb goes over putting the enemy in hit stun, Lb impales and if there is a wall he gets a heavy = 100+ dmg just coming from Lb)


In Summary:

Lawbringers Offensive is highly lacking but it does not matter to him because his defensive is so overloaded and bad designed. Optimal played Lb is similar to Conq in the regard that both get there power from staying defensive. Both heroes tend to slow fights down massively if they get played optimally but for Lb this turns fights in to snail speed fights.

Lb in his current state is as flawed to the core and can’t be fixed without re-reworking him.

[Klingentaenz3r]

all of the above. His feats and perks add also the icing on the cake to make him even more hard to kill in 4s. LB is a quite an easy hero to play and perform well with and hence is often frowned upon. BTW I don't know what platform you are playing on nor the region but here in Europe on PC there are always plenty LBs around ingame across every game mode.

Don't feel discouraged to play your hero. I actually enjoy fighting one except the 400 ms neutral top light which is BS.

[MrBdur]

all of the above. His feats and perks add also the icing on the cake to make him even more hard to kill in 4s. LB is a quite an easy hero to play and perform well with and hence is often frowned upon. BTW I don't know what platform you are playing on nor the region but here in Europe on PC there are always plenty LBs around ingame across every game mode.

Don't feel discouraged to play your hero. I actually enjoy fighting one except the 400 ms neutral top light which is BS.

Lawbringer is so broken right now lol

[Knight_Raime]

Gaser does a decent job of explaining things but I figured i'd throw my own response in as well just to add some more detail...

For starters LB is apart of the select few that has the highest HP pool in the game. This is exacerbated when you throw in perks and feats that make him more survivable.
When you combine that with his relatively high parry punishes (impale to wall for heavies and top UB heavy+ follow up on light parry) it generally means he's going to be hurting you a lot more than you hurting him.

Lawbringer has a 400ms top light and an armored shove. Both tools are good at stuffing and stopping offense. the top light basically means unless you are a reaction monster it's a risk swapping out of that guard direction whenever you attempt to mix up. The shove is accessible off of a side dodge. Which means he can try to option select your mix up with his bash. However it also has armor. Meaning even if he failed the timing on the dodge bash he can still trade with the attack and stop your offense cold. Shove itself has incredibly low recovery for blocking and CGBing. Meaning unless you are really good at making reads and dodging before his dodge the only way you can realistically punish his shove attempt is with a character that also has access to a bash off of a side dodge.

He has a low recovery zone. This is important to note because LB sits in mid most of the time with minions. Currently if you unlock throw a zone the game will track it towards minions. Since the game has considered the minions to be the target you cannot parry his zone even if you were to be hit by it. The only exception to this targeting rule is the superior block property. So despite LB's zone being a not so fast 700ms attack in the minion lane you're unlikely to punish it because you probably won't have a tool to do so and you cannot abuse recovery of it since it's low.

This leads into feats which pushes him even further. LB has body count which further ties into how rewarding his unlocked zone at minions is. He can heal and not get punished easily even mid fight. He has Juggernaut which gives you 10 second immunity to being flinched or guard broken and you have 50% damage reduction. This basically forces you to stare at LB for a minimum of 10 seconds because if you dare attack him at all he can just eat it and GB you through your recovery after the attack. He has second wind which gives back 50HP and we've already gone over how important HP is for LB. Finally he has ignus ember. Which double as quick minion clear or as a punish tool where LB tosses one at his feat and GB's someone trying to escape the AoE. LB can get away with hurting himself due to everything mentioned prior to this.

Finally we have ganking. His running gank was nerfed so it can't be gotten on CGB anymore. But outside of that impale is still a very decent tool. As at best you kill someone through enviornmentals. Or at worst you remove them from a team fight. And he's got long arm. Which serves as a great extender for hitstun ganks and is a decent tool to stall out someone in revenge. He's not the best ganking person to work with but he's not a bad gank partner either.


Basically all of that combined means LB is incredibly good from a defensive stand point. Defense in general is still superior to most offense. While I wouldn't say it's mandatory to be able to parry most things to get good mileage out of LB I will say it makes him significantly more threatening to deal with. So if you find yourself incapable of parrying even half of the things you go against LB probably won't feel as good for you as it does for those who can.

[Sweaty_Sock]

To summon it up quick:

-Highest Hp Pool in the game
-Some of the highest Parry punishes in the game
-400ms top light which can negate pretty much any combo pressure
- Shove and Zone have pretty much no recovery, that means if you even attempt to punish Lb with a dodge attack and do it just a bit to late he has a high chance of even parrying that. (Zone having no recovery matters because if he unlocks while throwing a zone in the minion lane it becomes unpunishable for every hero who does not have a full block counter)
- 300ms Running impale which can cause ridiculous gank situation (bomb throw, teammate keeps enemy in place, bomb goes over putting the enemy in hit stun, Lb impales and if there is a wall he gets a heavy = 100+ dmg just coming from Lb)


In Summary:

Lawbringers Offensive is highly lacking but it does not matter to him because his defensive is so overloaded and bad designed. Optimal played Lb is similar to Conq in the regard that both get there power from staying defensive. Both heroes tend to slow fights down massively if they get played optimally but for Lb this turns fights in to snail speed fights.

Lb in his current state is as flawed to the core and can’t be fixed without re-reworking him.

Solid summary.

You can still play LB, just try and avoid spamming top lights and turtling and you will avoid alot of the hate - alot of it comes from players having such a forgiving hitpool and still insisting on turtling up

[Beyond_Paradox]

I think previous comments summarized his situation pretty well. I just would like to emphasize on one issue which is the main driver of the whole hate story.

LB relies on his inflated defense and turtles hard because his offence is still complete garbage. LB's problem prior rework was that he couldn't attack at all. He was not able to do anything from neutral. This was only partially fixed in a sense that he is only allowed to press buttons only once his opponent starts pressing buttons (top light and shove) and still remain super defensive. The rest of his kit still doesn't put any pressure offensively and everything is locked behind an extremely risky super easy to parry heavy.

Offensively LB is still below average (quit weak imo) and that is why every LB mains turtles to achieve results. This approach will soon be shutdown in TG by slowing down his top light as well as the imminent nerf to his shove some time in the future as it was mentioned in the last state of balance. Once that happens then LB is back to being low tier again in 1v1 but not 4v4s as his zone will carry him unless they manged to fix the unlock zone. If that happens then LB is a complete **** in every game mode again and he will then have completed a complete cycle starting from below garbage to godhood to below garbage again similar to Raider.

RIP Raider btw and soon we will say RIP LB because flawed win rates covers the devs back in that regard.

[Gaser.]

I think previous comments summarized his situation pretty well. I just would like to emphasize on one issue which is the main driver of the whole hate story.

LB relies on his inflated defense and turtles hard because his offence is still complete garbage. LB's problem prior rework is that he couldn't attack at all. He was not able to do anything from neutral. This was only partially fixed in a sense that he is only allowed to press buttons only once his opponent starts pressing buttons (top light and shove) and still remain super defensive. The rest of his kit still doesn't put any pressure offensively and everything is locked behind an extremely risky super easy to parry heavy.

Offensively LB is still below average (quit weak imo) and that is why every LB mains turtles to achieve results. This approach will soon be shutdown in TG by slowing down his top light as well as the imminent nerf to his shove some time in the future as it was mentioned in the last state of balance. Once that happens then LB is back to being low tier again in 1v1 but not 4v4s as his zone will carry him unless they manged to fix the unlock zone. If that happens then LB is a complete **** in every game mode again and he will then have completed a complete cycle starting from below garbage to godhood to below garbage again similar to Raider.

RIP Raider btw and soon we will say RIP LB because flawed win rates covers the devs back in that regard.

Win Rates and Open we ask for feedback posts on the For Honor discord where everyone has access to.

Pretty much the two worse places you could get Data™️ for balance.

[Sweaty_Sock]

Win Rates and Open we ask for feedback posts on the For Honor discord where everyone has access to.

Pretty much the two worse places you could get Data™️ for balance.

Best place it trial & error at the controls. Group prayer anyone?

[Knight_Raime]

I think previous comments summarized his situation pretty well. I just would like to emphasize on one issue which is the main driver of the whole hate story.

LB relies on his inflated defense and turtles hard because his offence is still complete garbage. LB's problem prior rework was that he couldn't attack at all. He was not able to do anything from neutral. This was only partially fixed in a sense that he is only allowed to press buttons only once his opponent starts pressing buttons (top light and shove) and still remain super defensive. The rest of his kit still doesn't put any pressure offensively and everything is locked behind an extremely risky super easy to parry heavy.

Offensively LB is still below average (quit weak imo) and that is why every LB mains turtles to achieve results. This approach will soon be shutdown in TG by slowing down his top light as well as the imminent nerf to his shove some time in the future as it was mentioned in the last state of balance. Once that happens then LB is back to being low tier again in 1v1 but not 4v4s as his zone will carry him unless they manged to fix the unlock zone. If that happens then LB is a complete **** in every game mode again and he will then have completed a complete cycle starting from below garbage to godhood to below garbage again similar to Raider.

RIP Raider btw and soon we will say RIP LB because flawed win rates covers the devs back in that regard.

I mean pre rework LB still was unhealthy. His design concept is pretty bad for the kind of game the devs want to foster. Or supposedly want to foster. We got current day LB because the devs refuse to change a hero's identity. All they did was make his idea work in current day FH terms.