Raider buff | Forums

[Gaser.]

This is fair, People do tend to fall into linking the zone finisher only after a storm tap. However the zone is still limited in it's application even if you do substitute it through out a chain. This is because the moment someone sees orange they can just attempt to stuff it with some sort of 500ms attack from neutral. Raider is capable of making the read and buffer feinting to parry but he needs to make that read in addition to making the read on which direction the attack is coming from. Even if he didn't have that problem using his zone in a chain is very stamina intensive and thus he can't really do it as multiple mix ups without stopping after one or two tries. Finally it's putting all the pressure on his zone which we really don't want to do with kits.

His other soft feint options are basically meaningless in his combo outside of zone because Nothing stops me from just blocking top and reacting to other directions. I don't need to worry about dodging or parrying between a regular chain attack and his storm tap. So soft feint to GB is pretty useless in that regard. And if i'm already blocking top his tap has no where to go. This is why I suggested having his tap be a chain starter instead of mid chain light. This lets him continue to chain instead of being forced into weak finisher options that lead back to neutral. We could take that even a step further and make tap enhanced. That way a person who simply blocks doesn't shut him out of his chain.

Even if we just made those two changes right there his chain offense would flow a lot better and it wouldn't be such a start and stop rigid offense for the hero.

These are some good ideas.

[MCBooma16]

This is fair, People do tend to fall into linking the zone finisher only after a storm tap. However the zone is still limited in it's application even if you do substitute it through out a chain. This is because the moment someone sees orange they can just attempt to stuff it with some sort of 500ms attack from neutral. Raider is capable of making the read and buffer feinting to parry but he needs to make that read in addition to making the read on which direction the attack is coming from. Even if he didn't have that problem using his zone in a chain is very stamina intensive and thus he can't really do it as multiple mix ups without stopping after one or two tries. Finally it's putting all the pressure on his zone which we really don't want to do with kits.

His other soft feint options are basically meaningless in his combo outside of zone because Nothing stops me from just blocking top and reacting to other directions. I don't need to worry about dodging or parrying between a regular chain attack and his storm tap. So soft feint to GB is pretty useless in that regard. And if i'm already blocking top his tap has no where to go. This is why I suggested having his tap be a chain starter instead of mid chain light. This lets him continue to chain instead of being forced into weak finisher options that lead back to neutral. We could take that even a step further and make tap enhanced. That way a person who simply blocks doesn't shut him out of his chain.

Even if we just made those two changes right there his chain offense would flow a lot better and it wouldn't be such a start and stop rigid offense for the hero.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Sometimes I'll find those opponents that just know how to completely stuff me out. As for the light on orange, I would have to argue that a soft feint to storming tap beats a reactionary light attack more often than you think.

You know how the devs are, though. It will be a while before we see another change for Raider, even one as miniscule as your two suggested changes.

Characters that have infinite chain possibilities tend to perform better in most situations. They might have a better hard-feint game and can obviously keep their flow going better. Berserker is a good example for many reasons. Don't get me wrong, Raider is so much better now than he was. Hard-hitting heavies, HA, forward dodge GB, soft-feints, it's not bad.

But you're right, it's hard to work with just the zone. PK has a similar issue, as the soft feint only comes from the top. Shaman tends to have more success with her soft feints because she can choose where she wants them. Raider can't do that, but Raider has different chains than Shaman, anyway.

I feel since Raider has the potential to deal so much damage, this is where a good infinite chain possibility could become troublesome. But, I digress. Technically Raider does have an infinite chain, but it always has to branch to storming tap. Making the storming tap enhanced sounds cool. That sounds incredible, actually. However, it IS a 400ms SF, and maybe it'll be even faster after the core fight changes... It would be too easy to access everything all the time and might be at the level of annoyance akin to when the stun was around. There wouldn't be too much of a point in throwing neutral lights.

However, maybe they could only become enhanced if SF'd from a chained heavy instead? From neutral I honestly feel it would be crazy, but that's subjective.

I like the idea of a storming tap acting as a chain starter. Nowadays it's more important to keep a flow going, and Raider can either hard-feint or SF to storming tap.

I imagine a combo going something like HL-storming tap-LH-zone to storming tap-H-storming tap-HH. That would be cool af.

If attacks are sped up to 300ms from the fight changes, I'm quitting though. That kind of speed isn't really playable on console and I won't really care to play if things do change to a more turn-based fighting style with frame advantage and stuff.

Cheers.

[Sweaty_Sock]

It's not over certain issues. It's me being fed up with you making blatantly false statements or you making up whatever you want to suit your narrative when someone wants to adjust a hero in a way you're not fond of. If people are allowed to call me out on my BS whenever i'm wrong or very clearly pushing my own agenda then you're subject to it too. Deal with it.

The stun in stunning tap was removed for the health of the game, and a widley applauded move. This thread wanted it back. Im sorry but thats not a discussion on potential improvements, thats asking for broken to be reintroduced. If my Agenda is to allow some fun in the game then sue me, I just dont want to see the same champ picked evey duel and 7/8 characters in every dom game pending the next big thing (as regularly happens when a not well thought through champ/rework comes out). Raiders rework was horrendously overpowered and pardon me but I'm not going to support bringing back a key component of that (and one like I said before that was making the game unplayable for people with epilepsy), particularly when by your own admission Raider is still functional and quit good in 4's, which is the game mode they are balancing for. If you buff him for high tier duel levels, what will then happen to his respectable power level in 4's? (hint, it will go up...)

the Zone-feint-light parry is not a read on the direction its thrown, to beat the zone with a light its thrown early so buffering the feint gives plenty of time to parry any 500 ms light on reaction & net you the massive raider heavy damage. If you have already buffered the feint then your whole reaction time is freed up in advance to watch and react to their direction. And that's if they are refusing to do the actions that your other soft-feints beat.

'I can stand there and guard top and react to everything' - If you just want to turtle and have a 'I play to win by any means' attitude by all means just stand there immobile in front of opponents and parry/react, but defensive play is a massive issue in the game as a whole with a massive core game overhaul coming to address it? To my mind people who play like that are 'boring'. If both players just stand there waiting to parry then the clock would literally just tick down. Also doesn't mean you should delete defense from the game.

So yes, if I think something is bad for the game as a whole I will say so, and many of the changes lately IMO have been just that. However the August patch might be a resounding 'this is absolutely amazing' - and I do have my hopes. The agenda im pushing is an unbiased approach to all champions - nerf warden back dodge is a constant agreement and needs to happen (and thats my OG main before I started just playing with random select, a rep 70 I barely play anymore because hes too powerful now to be considered enjoyable for me or my dueling opponent). My thoughs on cent are my own disappointment at the changes and nothing to do with his relative power levels now.

You dont have to agree with me, but snide hidden insults are far beneath you, its disappointing that you you cant see some people have opinions that are on the otherside of the same coin as your own. Its all the same game that we both like playing.

I come on hard in these threads because very often they turn into echo chambers of just people who want the character buffed and end up with over-the-top suggestions. Sometimes you need to play devils advocate to stop things getting out of hand. By all means prove me wrong, as arguing your own position strengthens it (the whole point of discussion isnt just for 20 people to say 'yes'). If I put suggestions forward I want people to try poke holes in it so I can see if it actually is watertight.

This thread wanted stunning tap - and to that I say a hard 'no' as its an experiment that has been run and found wanting.

If this was a thread suggesting say some reduced stamina costs on the UB finisher then I might say 'tell me more, that sounds like it has potential'

[Siegfried-Z]

To be Frank, i wasn't a fan of Raider rework. I think Raider post rework was my most hated hero.

I was more than happy after his nerf while the ST could have been adressed in a better way.
That being said it was a good moove to fix it in any way.

Current Raider is not a monster as before, he is at best an average duelist now but still a strong 4v4 pick.

So, imo his current state doesn't deserve a buff before a long time.
Firstly because so many heros needs it more before and secondly because upcoming changes (TG) will makes his already poorly animated lights and ST entirely unreactable.

[Knight_Raime]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Sometimes I'll find those opponents that just know how to completely stuff me out. As for the light on orange, I would have to argue that a soft feint to storming tap beats a reactionary light attack more often than you think.

You know how the devs are, though. It will be a while before we see another change for Raider, even one as miniscule as your two suggested changes.

Characters that have infinite chain possibilities tend to perform better in most situations. They might have a better hard-feint game and can obviously keep their flow going better. Berserker is a good example for many reasons. Don't get me wrong, Raider is so much better now than he was. Hard-hitting heavies, HA, forward dodge GB, soft-feints, it's not bad.

But you're right, it's hard to work with just the zone. PK has a similar issue, as the soft feint only comes from the top. Shaman tends to have more success with her soft feints because she can choose where she wants them. Raider can't do that, but Raider has different chains than Shaman, anyway.

I feel since Raider has the potential to deal so much damage, this is where a good infinite chain possibility could become troublesome. But, I digress. Technically Raider does have an infinite chain, but it always has to branch to storming tap. Making the storming tap enhanced sounds cool. That sounds incredible, actually. However, it IS a 400ms SF, and maybe it'll be even faster after the core fight changes... It would be too easy to access everything all the time and might be at the level of annoyance akin to when the stun was around. There wouldn't be too much of a point in throwing neutral lights.

However, maybe they could only become enhanced if SF'd from a chained heavy instead? From neutral I honestly feel it would be crazy, but that's subjective.

I like the idea of a storming tap acting as a chain starter. Nowadays it's more important to keep a flow going, and Raider can either hard-feint or SF to storming tap.

I imagine a combo going something like HL-storming tap-LH-zone to storming tap-H-storming tap-HH. That would be cool af.

If attacks are sped up to 300ms from the fight changes, I'm quitting though. That kind of speed isn't really playable on console and I won't really care to play if things do change to a more turn-based fighting style with frame advantage and stuff.

Cheers.

It depends on what you mean by reaction. As lighting on orange is technically a read since the indicator hasn't even popped up then. I could see a soft feint into tap beating the average players reactions for sure. At least on console. Not sure about pc. Though the point wasn't that Raider can't do anything to counter stuff attempts and more so that he's one of the heros out there that suffers a bit harder compared to other heros due to stuffing with option selects.

It's fair to worry about damage after all Mushu proved that point pretty clearly. Doing 20 damage on soft feinted potentially unreactable lights that were apart of infinite combos felt equally terrible especially if he decided to let a finisher fly. I personally don't enjoy the "slower but harder hitting" move idea. It's never really worked out in for honor's entire life span. I get that Raider was basically OG big damage man as part of his identity but i've always more seen him like a grappler hero and while his rework certainly made him more enjoyable to play it definitely wasn't the direction I wanted him to go towards.

Pk's dagger cancel is actually worse than you think simply because you can avoid the raw heavy/second half of zone and dagger soft feint on the same timing. Shaman being able to choose the direction is nice but at even above average play it's not that big of a benefit because you really only have 2 directions if fighting solid guard heros and the sides are reactable at that point. Probably not on TG though what with the change to indicators. Regardless it is a change i'd like to see PK get since adding an unblockable to her kit is no longer a fair balance suggestion with her enhanced lights in play.

IIRC storm tap is still just a 500ms attack. Just with a 400ms indicator. I don't think the changes to indicators and animations will effect that much. I certainly don't recall it standing out when I was playing TG but i'm open to being wrong. If neutral heavy soft feint would be too oppressive then (in addition to chained,) i'd suggest at least letting his dodge storm tap be enhanced. Should be more telegraphed for the average person and would actually let it have a purpose since Raider's dodge attack is one of the few ones in the game that actually loses it's I frames when you input the attack.

[Knight_Raime]

The stun in stunning tap was removed for the health of the game, and a widley applauded move. This thread wanted it back. Im sorry but thats not a discussion on potential improvements, thats asking for broken to be reintroduced. If my Agenda is to allow some fun in the game then sue me, I just dont want to see the same champ picked evey duel and 7/8 characters in every dom game pending the next big thing (as regularly happens when a not well thought through champ/rework comes out). Raiders rework was horrendously overpowered and pardon me but I'm not going to support bringing back a key component of that (and one like I said before that was making the game unplayable for people with epilepsy), particularly when by your own admission Raider is still functional and quit good in 4's, which is the game mode they are balancing for. If you buff him for high tier duel levels, what will then happen to his respectable power level in 4's? (hint, it will go up...)

the Zone-feint-light parry is not a read on the direction its thrown, to beat the zone with a light its thrown early so buffering the feint gives plenty of time to parry any 500 ms light on reaction & net you the massive raider heavy damage. If you have already buffered the feint then your whole reaction time is freed up in advance to watch and react to their direction. And that's if they are refusing to do the actions that your other soft-feints beat.

'I can stand there and guard top and react to everything' - If you just want to turtle and have a 'I play to win by any means' attitude by all means just stand there immobile in front of opponents and parry/react, but defensive play is a massive issue in the game as a whole with a massive core game overhaul coming to address it? To my mind people who play like that are 'boring'. If both players just stand there waiting to parry then the clock would literally just tick down. Also doesn't mean you should delete defense from the game.

So yes, if I think something is bad for the game as a whole I will say so, and many of the changes lately IMO have been just that. However the August patch might be a resounding 'this is absolutely amazing' - and I do have my hopes. The agenda im pushing is an unbiased approach to all champions - nerf warden back dodge is a constant agreement and needs to happen (and thats my OG main before I started just playing with random select, a rep 70 I barely play anymore because hes too powerful now to be considered enjoyable for me or my dueling opponent). My thoughs on cent are my own disappointment at the changes and nothing to do with his relative power levels now.

You dont have to agree with me, but snide hidden insults are far beneath you, its disappointing that you you cant see some people have opinions that are on the otherside of the same coin as your own. Its all the same game that we both like playing.

I come on hard in these threads because very often they turn into echo chambers of just people who want the character buffed and end up with over-the-top suggestions. Sometimes you need to play devils advocate to stop things getting out of hand. By all means prove me wrong, as arguing your own position strengthens it (the whole point of discussion isnt just for 20 people to say 'yes'). If I put suggestions forward I want people to try poke holes in it so I can see if it actually is watertight.

This thread wanted stunning tap - and to that I say a hard 'no' as its an experiment that has been run and found wanting.

If this was a thread suggesting say some reduced stamina costs on the UB finisher then I might say 'tell me more, that sounds like it has potential'

pt1) The issue was never that Tap was nerfed. It's that they did so without proper compensation. Same goes for the nerf to Nobushi that set the forums ablaze. Needed to happen. Still poorly handled. People accepting poor balance decisions made by the devs just because x hero was obnoxious to deal with is stupid. Yes, raider is perfectly viable in 4's. That doesn't mean the way he currently has to play is particularly fun for the Raider or for the person fighting him. Nor does that mean Raider can't be adjusted just because he's viable. And it's 100% a read just as it is for Warden to buffer a feint for his bash. Unless you have the math to prove otherwise?


pt2) "'I can stand there and guard top and react to everything' - If you just want to turtle and have a 'I play to win by any means' attitude by all means just stand there immobile in front of opponents and parry/react, but defensive play is a massive issue in the game as a whole with a massive core game overhaul coming to address it? To my mind people who play like that are 'boring'. If both players just stand there waiting to parry then the clock would literally just tick down. Also doesn't mean you should delete defense from the game."

I think it was important to highlight this section just because of how lame it is. It doesn't matter if you find someone playing optimally boring or not. That's not the issue being discussed. Defense being too strong as a whole is also irrelevant to Raider's woes. Stating that fact again doesn't actually counter the issue being made. it's just meaningless fluff. The final snippet is implying or at least can be implied that you are against giving Raider better chained offense simply because you think it would some how invalidate a player defending themselves. No hero should be shut out of their main offensive tools just by someone passively blocking. If such a thing is possible there is a flaw in the design of the heros kit and it needs to be addressed.


Finally none of this has anything to do with my latest response at you. You very often make bogus statements about kits that are simply not true. It's particularly frustrating when you are posing as a long time player who has a huge amount of time under their belt. But your radar is completely off when it comes to a lot of hero kits. There's a very clear line between just having a different opinion on something and just being wrong about something. You can still be wrong with an opinion. Repeatedly mentioning people are allowed to have differing opinions does absolutely nothing for discussions at hand and seems to be your go to when someone calls you on your BS. If you think i'm being too much of a tool to you or someone else then report the comment and move along. Or ya know just do what I do when someone I don't like posts something about me. Ignore it.

[Knight_Raime]

To be Frank, i wasn't a fan of Raider rework. I think Raider post rework was my most hated hero.

I was more than happy after his nerf while the ST could have been adressed in a better way.
That being said it was a good moove to fix it in any way.

Current Raider is not a monster as before, he is at best an average duelist now but still a strong 4v4 pick.

So, imo his current state doesn't deserve a buff before a long time.
Firstly because so many heros needs it more before and secondly because upcoming changes (TG) will makes his already poorly animated lights and ST entirely unreactable.

I'd hardly call Raider a strong pick in 4's. He's just viable. There are better gankers and mid clearers. Cent actually does his job(s) far better. And at least for some comp teams is replacing shaman whom along side LB has been a mandatory pick for quite some time.
Also saying other heros have it worse isn't a valid counter point to someone suggesting buffs to a kit. Just say you don't want him buffed. Or better yet just don't bother posting if you can't give legitimate reasons to go against the suggestions being put forth.

Even if TG did make storm tap significantly harder to react to from an indicator perspective you still see him jump when he does the soft feint. So it's not going to drastically make Raider more viable in duels/single picks. Because again stun tap didn't give him chained offense. It simply allowed his chained offense to some what work. With the blind being gone and never coming back the only way that sort of effect can be done again is if tap is made to be enhanced. Which still doesn't solve the problem of his chained offense being rather poor. it just lets him start his offense.

[Sweaty_Sock]

pt1) The issue was never that Tap was nerfed. It's that they did so without proper compensation. Same goes for the nerf to Nobushi that set the forums ablaze. Needed to happen. Still poorly handled. People accepting poor balance decisions made by the devs just because x hero was obnoxious to deal with is stupid. Yes, raider is perfectly viable in 4's. That doesn't mean the way he currently has to play is particularly fun for the Raider or for the person fighting him. Nor does that mean Raider can't be adjusted just because he's viable. And it's 100% a read just as it is for Warden to buffer a feint for his bash. Unless you have the math to prove otherwise?


pt2) "'I can stand there and guard top and react to everything' - If you just want to turtle and have a 'I play to win by any means' attitude by all means just stand there immobile in front of opponents and parry/react, but defensive play is a massive issue in the game as a whole with a massive core game overhaul coming to address it? To my mind people who play like that are 'boring'. If both players just stand there waiting to parry then the clock would literally just tick down. Also doesn't mean you should delete defense from the game."

I think it was important to highlight this section just because of how lame it is. It doesn't matter if you find someone playing optimally boring or not. That's not the issue being discussed. Defense being too strong as a whole is also irrelevant to Raider's woes. Stating that fact again doesn't actually counter the issue being made. it's just meaningless fluff. The final snippet is implying or at least can be implied that you are against giving Raider better chained offense simply because you think it would some how invalidate a player defending themselves. No hero should be shut out of their main offensive tools just by someone passively blocking. If such a thing is possible there is a flaw in the design of the heros kit and it needs to be addressed.


Finally none of this has anything to do with my latest response at you. You very often make bogus statements about kits that are simply not true. It's particularly frustrating when you are posing as a long time player who has a huge amount of time under their belt. But your radar is completely off when it comes to a lot of hero kits. There's a very clear line between just having a different opinion on something and just being wrong about something. You can still be wrong with an opinion. Repeatedly mentioning people are allowed to have differing opinions does absolutely nothing for discussions at hand and seems to be your go to when someone calls you on your BS. If you think i'm being too much of a tool to you or someone else then report the comment and move along. Or ya know just do what I do when someone I don't like posts something about me. Ignore it.

Sorry but this made me chuckle, you need to chill out mate, "It's particularly frustrating when you are posing as a long time player who has a huge amount of time under their belt" - Why would I 'pose' as someone who has invested too much time in a video game, its hardly something to stick on a tinder profile

Seriously though everyone is wrong time to time - I mean even in one of the recent cent threads you tried correcting me on cent being able to guarantee a punch off dash heavy (which he cant...) but I had the politeness to let it slide because noone knows everything, myself included (I am certainly not always right and can brainf@rt on timings etc. just like everyone else).

Opinions are a personal perspective - for example someone likes a movie that I dont like. No one person is right as the the truth there is subjective. If 900 people liked a move and just me disliked it, you can factually say the vast majority of people liked it, but you cant say that i am wrong for disliking it. In this instance I can say stunning tap was disliked by a majority of players and its removal was liked by a majority of players. If you enjoyed it good on you, but you have to accept you were in a minority.


RAIDERS UB ZONE MATHS ala something your calling a 'bogus statment'
- If you throw the UB zone & they 'react on orange' then there is a reaction time of about 250-300 ms reaction time for the human to register 'orange' and input the light (during this time you are also already buffering your feint). Even on the faster timing of 250ms react/input that gives a 750 ms timeframe from them seeing the attack, inputting the light, and their 500ms hit completing. If you feinted as part of the attack (which you can do during their 250-300ms reaction window) you are free to watch and and react during your feinting animation, giving you more than the required 250-300 ms time needed to react and establish the direction of their attack for your parry attempt - basically if you just buffer and forget them, feinting animations dont stop you using your eyes in that time to react to their response once you have your controls back. Unless you close your eyes or stare at your character to make sure you really did feint, this time is free to watch the game and prep responses.

- the reason its different for a warden is often the light is thrown as a read after you eat a double light or similar from a warden, warden can either Hvy or Bash at that point and the player throws a light banking on the bash. This shrinks the window significantly as they are not reacting to you being orange, so it reduces the process by the 250-300 ms as the person attacking the warden isnt reacting to anything (their decision to light can be made whilst they are eating double lights and the attack will throw as soon as they regain control).

- In the raider instance if they are trying to throw not on reaction (but on read, like described above for the warden) you can notice this pretty clearly and do something like substitute the UB finisher for a standard heavy chain attack and HA through the attack for massive out-trade on the damage, or if they stand still you can still use your softfeint GB if anticipating a a parry attempt, use a tap, let it fly for the fun of it (if they are not falling for the softfeint GB why not get some chip damage in there), or just hard feint it altogether and pause to get your stamina back. This comes down to recognizing your opponents preferences, getting in their head, and in a nutshell outplaying them. This is where the fact raiders chain finish of Tap is actually good, because you can mess with the opponents anticipations by threatening UB finish, or going with the HA finish (which can in turn into another tap and reset the predicament your forcing on the opponent). Lets also not forget in this defensive meta raider has some powerful light parry punishes going for him.


Next we have this little statement
"I think it was important to highlight this section just because of how lame it is. It doesn't matter if you find someone playing optimally boring or not. That's not the issue being discussed. Defense being too strong as a whole is also irrelevant to Raider's woes".... "I can stand there and guard top and react to everything". You REALLY dont think these matters could be linked, at all??? Optimal play being a reaction defence meta, a champ you are struggling to be aggressive with who you state you personally beat by standing there in a reactive defensive manner?


TO finish -
Raider is still viable (still PLENTY of raiders running around the game), and stunning taps removal was a fix that was GOOD for the game. Adding it back in would be BAD. We arnt even talking hypothetically, it was in the game & was hated, was removed and its removal was applauded.

At WORST you can call raider average, but guess what... average isn't bad, its average relative to all the champs, so before we go wanting buffs like enhanced lights to an already functional champs offence in an 'optimal play' defence meta, lets wait for the massive core overhaul less than a month away aimed at said meta?

[Knight_Raime]

@Sock

I chose posing as a neutral word. I could've accused you of pretending instead. I was indeed wrong about it being Guaranteed. This was because it used to be pre his rework and I made the mistake of assuming it would still be the same simply because it was not a listed change. So you can't really make that situation out to be like you knew better than I did about Centurion especially since the whole context of the situation was that you wanted his dash heavy to link into his gameplay loop. Which it does as you still chain off of it. Good effort though.


In regards to the maths I asked for You have 200ms recovery after feinting. Raider's zone is 900ms from neutral and 1000ms in chain. Hard feinting happens 400ms before impact. So in this case there is a 700ms window of time before raider can act upon being stuffed (200ms recovery on feint+ the minimum exit time of the zone being 500ms) So there is a 200ms difference between a 500ms attack and when Raider is out of the feint and it's recovery. The average human reaction time is 300ms. 200ms is still doable. But i'm hard pressed to believe a normal FH player could consistently feint and parry.
But let's assume that we can say a FH player can do this on his neutral zone on reaction. You cannot say the same for his chained zone. The extra 100ms for it basically means it's stuffed for free.

The warden reference was from a neutral dodge and not chained. Raider's chained HA comes out 300ms so a raider has to make the read and trade here. Only with his finisher heavies does he get 100ms of HA. In that instance you can argue raider could reasonably try to react trade with a stuffed attempt. Also raider can substitute his mid chain or his chain finisher with a his zone. It doesn't need to be only if raider is at a finisher point like Valk. So tap leading to a finisher doesn't actually benefit the chain mix up. If anything the devs made it a second hit in the chain to cut down the amount of potential combo options to prevent overwhelming the player.


In regards to the specific quote I mentioned you're missing the point. Saying Raider's chained offense is bad because defense in general is too strong is not actually countering my claim that Raider's offense is poor. You're side stepping the issue not addressing it. Which I will reiterate again for your benefit. Raider's offense is poor because his chain offense is poor. His chain offense is poor because it is reasonable to assume someone can just stuff his mid chain UB mix up. And that his one potential soft feint (storm tap) is a relatively poor move that leads to weak finishers. It wouldn't matter if tap or his heavies became harder to react to ala mid season patch. His mix up fundamentally does not work. Defense being favored is just icing on the crap cake for raider's situation.


The thing is I didn't advocate for stun to come back. The general discussion here has been about Raider's offensive capabilities as a whole. OP may have initiated by asking for it back. But that's really just one piece of the overall discussion. The mid season patch does not fix anyone's core kit problems. Even if raider ends up landing more hits because of it that doesn't fix the core problems of his offense.

[Siegfried-Z]

I'd hardly call Raider a strong pick in 4's. He's just viable. There are better gankers and mid clearers. Cent actually does his job(s) far better. And at least for some comp teams is replacing shaman whom along side LB has been a mandatory pick for quite some time.
Also saying other heros have it worse isn't a valid counter point to someone suggesting buffs to a kit. Just say you don't want him buffed. Or better yet just don't bother posting if you can't give legitimate reasons to go against the suggestions being put forth.

Even if TG did make storm tap significantly harder to react to from an indicator perspective you still see him jump when he does the soft feint. So it's not going to drastically make Raider more viable in duels/single picks. Because again stun tap didn't give him chained offense. It simply allowed his chained offense to some what work. With the blind being gone and never coming back the only way that sort of effect can be done again is if tap is made to be enhanced. Which still doesn't solve the problem of his chained offense being rather poor. it just lets him start his offense.

I am not saying some hero can't be better than Raider in 4s as far as i know.
Only saying he can be good.. as you said yourself many times on this same thread btw.

It's also nothing but honest to say that at this point Raider is not in a urge of a buff to be ok like many others are. My point is not to counter argue with the op, it's to be clear about it.

Once you get it thats why i am not going into any technical stuffs.

Still everyone is free to share ideas they would like, just like the op did and i also did respectfully without even quoting anyone or taking part into the suggestions.

Respect, a basic value you should work on a bit.