How few people do you think you need to kill to get to Sueno? | Forums

[MikeWeeks]

Yeah, I’m well aware of my bipolar behaviour

As for tabulating, the way I see it, tactics matter. Non lethal tactics are important in this challenge. It’s better to pistol whip a guy who might walk away than execute him with a bullet in the brain. Every life matters in this challenge. If the game tabulates a knock out as a kill, that’s a game counting error. it’s still not murder... you did not murder that person... right? And we’re trying to determine the least number of murders or kills you need to do. But ultimately, it’s up to the person playing it I guess. Maybe it’s worth noting the number of kills vs knock outs? It’s not a huge number so might be reasonable.

@Venom, no time to watch your videos now, but I will tomorrow. Love your idea of “accidental deaths” from being run over. Mike will hate this but it raises another accounting question... if a death can be ruled as a suicide or accidental (run over) does that count? I mean, people get run over by accident every day? Right? LOL.

All I'm stating is that a gun butt to the skull gets counted as a kill by the game (in most cases it appears outside some specific missions), so that needs to be accounted for, one way or the other, when it's applied to the challenge based on how a player's stats are going to be displayed. This also goes for difficulty level and HUD options (IMO).

What testing I've gone lately is that if you don't grab a guy first, but go straight to CQC with either a weapon drawn or not, you can't be 100% sure which animation you'll get - a neck snap/back break, or simply a grab of the legs followed by punch to the head. The game simply adds the takedown as a kill.

Without a drawn weapon a sleeping NPC is "knocked out" with simply a hand punch to the mid-section (or gun butt if using a drawn weapon). Animation-wise that's not a kill, but the game states otherwise.

Now Venom has taken it to a whole other level with aiming for a pacifist run (to the extent possible). Hadn't even thought of that. Non-targeted NPCs are not harmed, or they're used used as human shields. Very cool. So getting a mission completed with factional warfare (including panicked civilians) that you don't directly start (via rebel diversion) as an example is down right clever.

[venomgun1]

I did "Soldiers of Santa Muerte" several times on my main character, but wasn't able to keep the rebels from joining in at the second camp. Done it again on my no skills ghost mode character and redoing all Influence and Security missions as well.

part 1

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part 2

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Both parts are long, so I uploaded them separately. Feel free to watch at x2 speed First opportunity to involve Unidad patrol is usually missed because escape vehicles haven't been dealt with yet. Next opportunity will present itself in 10-15 minutes. Enemy mainly respond to loud gunfire and explosions, suppressed weapons are enough for suspicion, unless it's sustained fire. After the dust settles, Unidad looks for enemies at last known location. If no one is found there, they will establish a search pattern, report nothing was found after a minute, order all present Undad soldiers to stand down and leave the area.

Redoing other missions on my no skills ghost mode character too.
- "The Engineer" played out much better by opening all cells at once, which took just over 30 seconds while unseen. 3 rebels survived instead of 1 on the previous playthrough. Which makes me question if trained rebels skill does anything at all. If it's just chance/RNG, I'd prefer not to rely on RNG as much as possible and invest skills where they are actually needed, if at all.

- "El Chido's Car" played near identical and my vehicle took even less damage than last time. So, car shield skill is not needed.

- "The Casino" done while unseen, just baited one by one outside and stowed into 2 vehicles I parked next to the side wall. SB solldiers on the parking lot were untouched. Doing it this way took over 30 minutes.

- arrived unsuspected at "The resort" via boat, shot 20 bullets from suppressed ACR (Future Soldier variant) to scare some civilians, threw a single grenade between 2 parked vehicles and got in the trunk as grenade went off. 2 vehicles exploded 10-15 seconds later and triggered the timer for defending the position. Hunted status wasn't removed when the mission was completed this time. Still working with less throwable items used.

- redone "Carzita's VIP List". Arrived by boat, stowed SB lieutenant in the parked heavy helicopter when nobody was watching, ensured building was empty before going inside, started the hack, ran to the top floor and went prone behind the desk until it was safe to proceed. Took about a minute for enemies to retreat, crouch walked downstairs, retrieved the list and returned to my boat. Hunted status remained even after mission ended, not sure why. Could be a side effect of leaving everyone patrolling at the target building unharmed.

- completing "El Sueno's Convoy" will be difficult without using AMR or AR with M203/GP-25 grenade launcher. Most snipers wont do without VHC destruction skill. Haven't tried SR-25 Jungle (hardly a challenge though). Since this is an optional mission, it can be done after defeating DJ Perico (unlocks Ritmo, custom AK-12 variant with GP-25 grenade launcher).

Still working on the rest.
BTW, do we count Carzita and DJ Perico as dead or knocked out? Storywise, Perico is alive and well until his sound engineer leaves the mic on (accident?), while he vents about the cartel. If we count their deaths as non-lethal knockouts, this leaves a lot of freedom for interpretation of game mechanics (lieutenant from "Amaru's Rescue", captain from "Armadillo's Commander", the thief from "Ramon Feliz" and former Perico's bodyguard from "The bodyguard" ).



The game doesn't allow a non-lethal knockout. It's a kill, regardless of what the animation shows. Animation only adds to the confusion. Sicario leader side job has the same issue ... they were meant to be humiliated, not executed. Personally, I always treated knockouts as kills. It's the story that got it wrong or didn't consider practical limitations of certain mechanics
In the context of challenge, death toll is 10 or up to to 16, for influence+security path, depending how knockouts are treated. Faction warfare was used only 4 times - La carcel del pueblo, The engineer, Gold rush south and Soldiers of Santa Muerte in 48 missions on a path to El Sueno.

[MikeWeeks]

You're having too much fun there, Venom!!

My two cents regarding the question of knock-outs - one simply keeps track of those cases where the game forces you to knock-out an NPC as separate from others, which you the player perform in the normal case of attempting to complete any given mission.

Regardless of the number, clearly it's shown that as a player one can be very selective on the number of true kills in order to reach Sueno. You don't need to kill thousands of NPCs, as much fun in the game as that might be.

[Virtual-Chris]

In my opinion, if you grab someone, and the game prompts you to “Knock out” that’s a knock out. Not a kill. It’s a different button to do a melee takedown CQC, and that to me is a kill.

If the game counts a knock out after a grab as a kill, that’s a game accounting error. In my opinion.

So Venom, by my accounting rules, what’s the minimal number of kills (by your own hands) to get to Sueno? Have you got all the way yet with either character?

[venomgun1]

In my opinion, if you grab someone, and the game prompts you to “Knock out” that’s a knock out. Not a kill. It’s a different button to do a melee takedown CQC, and that to me is a kill.

If the game counts a knock out after a grab as a kill, that’s a game accounting error. In my opinion.

So Venom, by my accounting rules, what’s the minimal number of kills (by your own hands) to get to Sueno? Have you got all the way yet with either character?

Not yet. Working on reducing the number of kill missions further.

Completed La Yuri and El Polito a few times with a single rebel diversion, takes 6-15 minutes. La Yuri can be lured outside by firing a shot in the floor close to her, running upstairs, setting off a flare or 2 and firing APC turret at the hunting lodge wall. After she gets outside, player can call in rebel diversion, fire a shot in the air or ground (without suppressor), enter passenger seat and have La Yuri shoot at the APC, while rebels get in the position to kill her. More SB will come to play outside too, except 1-3 guarding El Polito. Rebels will sometimes follow a player after a fire command, but usually noisemaker drone will be required to lure them closer to El Polito.
Faction warfare with Unidad is also possible here, takes around 25-50 minutes. Since this would only be threat level 1, a lot of soldiers could die to La Yuri's minigun and will have to call for additional reinforcements, which is tricky because closest road is far away, so Unidad has to go on foot. Unidad sometimes spawns near Itacua Bravo, but that's only helpful for characters without rebel upgrades.




3 targets from "The instructors", cartel informant from "The mole" and "Carzita's assistant" can be completed by using the targets as a shield until they die from exposure. Cartel informant doesn't get targeted by Unidad and SB doesn't attack him, which doesn't leave much room from creativity. With explosion resistance upgrades, I could anger some enemy mortars and attack helicopters Or get ran over by a vehicle when playing with team AI.






If Bookhart follows Nomad all the way through the cave, then rebel diversion can be used on the cave exit. I haven't tried Unidad faction warfare with Bookhart yet. Or perhaps lure him to the closest road and let civilians do their thing


Need to check if the target from "The advisor" can be grabbed and what are my options in case he tries to escape. When La Plaga retreats to the nearby outpost, then I have infinite time and quite a few options and if I'm lucky enough, his own men will blow him up with a grenade.

[Virtual-Chris]

If you don’t use Rebels or Unidad... what’s the kill count by your hands?

Impressed with your creative solutions. El Chidos car was epic.

I’m also impressed that Yuri can leave the building.

[venomgun1]

If you don’t use Rebels or Unidad... what’s the kill count by your hands?

Impressed with your creative solutions. El Chidos car was epic.

I’m also impressed that Yuri can leave the building.

Finished everything except "Rebellion rising" on main character. This mission only be done on a new character. Thief in "Ramon Feliz" stopped using road block (same strat previously used in "El Chido's car and "The death truck")", grabbed and interrogated. After that I took his vehicle, drove to the outpost, parked behind the building, grabbed a single guard there (it was night), stowed him in a vehicle and completed the mission. There's a SAM launcher in that outpost, so there are multiple benefits for driving. For "El Cardenal" parked the helicopter next to the staircase leading to the rooftop (roof works too, it's safer, but slower), holstered my crossbow, went inside and crouch walked to the laptop upstairs, destroyed one of the props with crossbow to make lieutenant suspicious, baited lieutenant to a spot where he didn't have a clear line of sight to the laptop, hacked the broadcast station and immediately ran outside. After reaching the helicopter, I let cardenal escape, stopped his car by using my helicopter as a battering ram, grabbed the target and extracted.

Without involving rebels or Unidad, Nomad gets full credit for:
- La Yuri and El Polito
- Carl Bookhart
- La Plaga
- Last survivor from "Soldiers of Santa Muerte" (others die from friendly fire). Unless he gets ran over by a civilian (accident kill)

Friendly fire accidents:
- all 3 SB instructors from "The instructors"
- all but 1 sicario from "Soldiers of Santa Muerte" (19-20, first camp sometimes spawn 11 targets instead of 10)
- cartel informant from "The mole"
- Santera's advisor from "The Advisor"
- Carzita's assistant

List of all knockouts:
- SB lieutenant from "Amaru's Rescue"
- Unidad lieutenant from "Armadillo's Commander"
- Perico's former bodyguard from "The Bodyguard"
- thief from "Ramon Feliz"
- DJ Perico
- Carzita

There's no need to involve Unidad or rebels at any point in the missions. I just did that out of curiosity, for fun and variety (using targets as a shield in loud or stowing them in vehicles to maintain perfect stealth does get repetitive after awhile)

[Virtual-Chris]

Amazing dude!

So that’s 5 people you had to kill by your hands, 6 KOs, and at most 26 other deaths to get to Sueno.

That’s awesome. It really is remarkable. If you asked someone who played this game, but hasn’t seen this thread, to guess how many people you has to kill to get to Sueno, I’m almost certain, no one would guess 5. LOL

So the two most effecient branches of the Cartel to do this way are Security and Influence? Did you think about the difference with Production or Smuggling?

[MikeWeeks]

All this got me to thinking of the missions which are in the game, in which you're forced to grab an NPC to get some intel, but you don't knock them out afterwards. Four which come to mind are:

Aggressive Competition (need the door code)

Flight Plan (Reed's bank account from the buyer)

General Baro (his daughter)

Mojocoyo's Boss (Gabriela)

These four are part of the daily challenges, so that's most likely why I'm recalling them. Are there others which come to mind?

[Virtual-Chris]

All this got me to thinking of the missions which are in the game, in which you're forced to grab an NPC to get some intel, but you don't knock them out afterwards. Four which come to mind are:

Aggressive Competition (need the door code)

Flight Plan (Reed's bank account from the buyer)

General Baro (his daughter)

Mojocoyo's Boss (Gabriela)

These four are part of the daily challenges, so that's most likely why I'm recalling them. Are there others which come to mind?

Although not in keeping with the subject of this thread, I usually kill the first two But I can’t think of any others.