Senior Member
Okay, cool.
Of note, and only as an additional possibility based on my game-play - for Culta's prisoner - it might be possible to have 0 kills when it's done at night, when that single guard hits the mattress with the others.
I'm assuming instead of doing CQC on the sleeping bunch, you just open the cell door and interact - which ends the mission as we know.
Senior Member
This is awesome! I never thought anyone would actually try it. Good work!Originally Posted by venomgun1 Go to original post
It’s actually possible to get through this game with a remarkably low number of enemies killed if you play it that way. I’m tempted to try this myself now as a personal challenge.
Senior Member
Call for clarification(s) as it relates to a challenge, and what most likely was driving that discussion on Reddit -
Do it with a new character, or established character via mission re-plays?
Define what is, or is not, a non-bullet kill. Some examples - sneak up and with the appropriate gloves you will take down the NPC with a knife - clearly a kill. Grab an NPC and you gun butt them - a kill or not? With a drawn main weapon you can break a neck or also gun butt them - a kill or not?
Let's take the La Plaga mission for example - he you must kill. However if you grab and gun butt him, mission accomplished - you have killed him. So for the challenge, should it be a case of a bullet, or knife, or explosion are the only acceptable ways to accomplish the task? That leaves the other NPCs - what would be the acceptable methods to drop them in order to have La Plaga be counted as the only "kill"?
Another example would be Amaru's rescue - I see no way to get Amaru out of the cell without dropping a least some NPCs - whether with a new or established character.
Thoughts?
Member
New or existing character doesn't make much of a difference, except for the additional time needed to acquire minimum amount of relevant stealth/survival skills and loot enough convoys to unlock them. Looting convoys is easy enough, pick any province that doesn't have helicopter escorts, damage the truck, run away and make enough distance to despawn all enemies, return and claim the prize. First playthrough of many missions non-critical to story line progression can be unlocked by close proximity, major intel is not required. For intel about skills, weapons/accessories, medals and SB convoys/helicopters/planes we can repeatedly fast travel to towns and villages and ask people for help, instead of using SB lieutenants.Originally Posted by MikeWeeks Go to original post
Problem with defining kills in a pacifist run is complicated. In my opinion, if the objective is to kill, then the mission can't proceed if a target was only knocked out. Knockouts are also counted as kills during daily/task force challenges, unless it would break the challenge (SNAFU is the only exception to the rule). NPC knockouts aren't counted as kills if they survive interrogation by either becoming inactive (grab/stow ability is removed) or remaining alive in a surrendered state (grab/stow remains). Interrogated sicarios in guns for hire side job should be treated as surrendered enemies (alive), regardless or what animation shows after interrogation. SB/Unidad deaths resulting from opened prison cells shouldn't be credited to player.
There's a lot of creative options when it comes to dealing with La Plaga. I used enemies at the mansion as human shields, since this is the fastest available non-lethal option. Stowing them in vehicles also works well, since the mansion is packet with vehicles (Zeus truck with minigun next to checkpoint, another Zeus truck with minigun, trophy truck and car with a trunk at entrance, SB super car and vintage car next to the pool and finally helicopter on the roof. That's 15 available seats, even if a player arrives on foot.
Itacua is rather inconvenient for new characters. Existing characters are far better equipped to extract Amaru. Just hijacked 2 civilian cars from the road, parked closer and used all vehicles as cover from detection while luring one by one of them into my trap, then grabbed them and stowed into vehicles. I can upload the video of the whole thing. Same tactic used as in "The casino". In any case, SB lieutenant from "Amaru's rescue" doesn't get knocked out, he dies. Interrogation in "Armadillo's commander" also results in a melee kill, forgot about this. 4 kills in Itacua.
Anyway, new progress report:
- redone "Culta's prisoner" during the night. Indeed, a few additional enemies are sleeping inside, but the same enemy from daytime doesn't sleep at all. So, I baited him outside, crouch walked inside and opened the cell while in cover in case the SB soldier returns too fast.
- redone "The Outpost" during the night as well. No kills, unseen. Turns out nightly guard pattern is slightly better and more guards walk outside.
- redone "Carl Bookhart" using diversion lures (mission entrance point) and noisemaker drone (to lure Bookhart), daytime version instead of previous nightly for extra challenge. Result: 1 kill only
- redone "The resort" using only 3 grenades. 1 grenade between 2 cars, which later exploded and 1 grenade on the other side, which did no damage to anything. Went into the trunk, but this wasn't enough to frighten the guests. Since enemies go for the vehicle player came in, my helicopter was near the water, so I used this opportunity to throw final grenade damaging another car, which was enough to frighten the guests and start the timer for defending the area. When the timer reached 0:00, mission ended and all suspicion was instantly removed, which allowed me to fast travel out of there.
- redone "Carzita's VIP List" with SB APC after midnight (started at 01:17 game time). Parked very close to the back exit, leaving just enough room for the door to open/close and move freely, stowed 1 SB soldier from the target building into the APC. Let the clock run out, got detected 30 seconds later (there was no retreat, hunted status remained), left the vehicle, ran inside to retrieve the list. Mission, complete, no kills. Ran outside and went for a swim. While I'm satisfied with the outcome, maxed out bullet resistance will be required to make this happen.
- "Show cancelled" completed using only crossbow, on speakers of course, while unseen. No one else was harmed. Destroying speakers isn't silent and creates explosion. Basically the same as daily challenge on this mission, with difficulty level being the only difference.
- created a road block during "El Chido's Car", sneaked in the car through co-driver seat, switched seat (which made driver leave the car) and ran out of there as fast as possible. Some level(s) of car shield skill will probably be required for this, least 30 bullet holes were in windows, on the roof and on my side. There was no smoke though.
- "The Agent" (unseen), "Bad Publicity" (unseen) and El Chido also done without any casualties. Malca concluded with 0 kills.
- "The Bodyguard" completed unseen, but interrogating bodyguard ends with a CQC execution
- "DJ Perico's Home", "Radio Santa Blanca", "El Sueno's Convoy" and "DJ Perico" completed without any casualties, while unseen.
- "The Engineer" completed using only rebels freed from prison cells, opening 2 cells at a time to minimize casualties while dealing focused damage and remaining unseen. Hid in the container behind one of the cells, where rebels pick up weapons from imaginary ammo cratePucara done with 1 kill.
- "The Advisor" killed with crossbow
- "La Santera" used all diversion lures to relocate the SB heavy next to her cage, extracted La Santera using helicopter, no casualties
- "La Santera's Chapel" infiltrated from the back, while suspected, but still unseen, full stealth without any casualties
Still need to complete both gold caches, "Soldiers of Santa Muerte" (2 camps and 10 sicarios in each) and finally "Ramon Feliz" (interrogating the thief will up the kill counter by 1) and "El Cardenal". Death toll so far in 10 in security and 3 in influence branch and it will triple in the next 3 missions, unless I use civilians and faction warfare against Santera's sicarios.
Senior Member
Some thoughts from the previous -
My mentioning a new character versus an established character is in the context of one attempting such a challenge without building any skills prior to doing Amaru's Rescue; that is, you start the campaign as well as the challenge without skills.
Cultra's prisoner - perhaps we're back to the question - are we playing the same game?
I've had the one inside guard hit the mattress, more than once, if I end up doing it at night when it's a daily challenge and I wait, versus getting it done quicker and using a flashbang or getting him to move outside. Perhaps I should do a re-play when it's not a challenge, to see if he remains on duty.
What exactly does that mean in the context of working your way towards the basement of the mansion?I used enemies at the mansion as human shields, since this is the fastest available non-lethal option.
For "The Resort" - AFAIK, and experienced, the timer starts once you reach the trigger area, and is not dependent on the status of the guests. Is there another way to trigger the count-down? I've gone loud, with the team & I clearing the NPCs and until I reach the trigger area near the center of the parking lot, Nomad doesn't make the triggering statement and the timer starts.
I don't think the challenge should be considered as one that might mirror a Splinter Cell mission. That is, until you kill/capture your target (or steal something) all other NPCs are totally unaware of your presence. I'm thinking that a gun butt to the head should not be considered a kill regardless of the kill counter status (because the game design isn't consistent on that aspect of taking down an NPC). However the use of a CQC technique that results in Nomard doing a neck snap would be (so be careful that's not the result of your sneaking up on an NPC.)
But regardless, it's interesting to be learning what exactly does trigger the kill count in the various missions.
Senior Member
Wow.
First off, @Venomgun1, you have my highest respect for some of your brilliant creativity in executing these missions with minimal casualties. LOL at El Chido’s Car mission.
I’m very keen to hear your final tally. I really admire that you are doing this, and coming up with some very creative solutions. Perhaps not all of the solutions are realistic in real life, but they work within the constraints of the game mechanics. Well done!
I think Santana’s Sicarios deaths need to be counted whether by your hands or others. If it’s a mission to kill, Which this is, then no matter how it’s done, those deaths need to be added to the tally. It’s on the game or CIA, not on you (the Ghosts). If you get what I mean.
Next Mike, the argument on Reddit was essentially some reviewer saying that this game demands you become a violent mass murderer. That you have to kill hundreds or thousands of people in the course of this game. Which is certainly how I played it, and so it appears true at first. But it got me thinking... is it really necessary to kill hundreds of people? And I theorized that the Cartel leadership could actually be dismantled with relatively few murders, deaths, casualties, whatever you want to call them. So as far as rules for a challenge, I think what ever is reasonable works. I’m not as familiar with the take down mechanics as you and Venom are, so I would defer to you guys. But ultimately, I think it’s how many body bags are required that are directly or indirectly related to your actions in dismantling the Cartel leadership?
In my mind, if you pistol whip a guy after grabbing and/or interrogating him, he’s knocked out. Not dead... no body to be cleaned up by authorities. But it sounds like the game considers that a death? Tough call, but I would tend to say that’s not a real death that the authorities need to deal with.
I also think that if we’re doing this to provide a rebuttal to the reviewers assertion that you have to become a mass murderer to play this game, a low kill count challenge has to be done right from the start of the game. Otherwise it’s not a low kill count play through.
Member
I am very much in awe here. I knew I was tending to take easy options mostly which is why i am trying again with no AI but the lists above show just how far down the tree I am. I never have been any good atr CQC (fat fingers on keyboard and even worse on controller) but the detail you have for the minimal impact climb to deal with Sueno had my jaw hit the floor.
Senior Member
In that context it would make sense to me that you have to go by how the game counts kills. IOW, you start with new character(s) and no skills, with your kill count for the account recorded. Get to Sueno via the quickest means available, and you see what is the kill count.Originally Posted by Virtual-Chris Go to original post
Itacua is a good example of how the game counts kills that doesn't seem "right", as mentioned by Venom. However that's how the game is designed and you have a measurement which is recorded. Of course, one can note that x number of "kills" were actually only gun butts to the skull when done, versus as El Muro mentions, putting a bullet to his brain.
I'm also interested in general, how one with a fully kited character would undertake a minimum-kill run thru of a complete campaign.
Now, just for laughs Chris, let's mention the community challenge over in Breakpoint you developed, which is the complete opposite of this.
https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthrea...you-stay-alive
Member
Thanks guys
"Culta's prisoner" has been misbehaving on my main character since Oracle update. Mercenaries only added more bugs. So, for me that's the new normal.
What I meant about La Plaga:
I haven't tried to frighten guests without making noise yet (just by pointing my weapon at civilians or walk around with unholstered weapon)..Staying on other side of the parking lot had mixed results and required more firepower too, so I picked the side used in this video:
APC driver or gunner will raise suspicion in "Carzita's VIP list". Probability of detection near the entrance is very high. Adjust speed and drive as far as possible from patrolling enemies. To avoid detection near the main building, leave the APC and hide until suspicion goes away.
El Chido's car in detail. Timing is very important. Unidad patrols can't be nearby and this applies to SB supply convoy which goes through the same region
Decided to redo "Carl Bookhart" once again and sprayed the cave wall with my LMG to lure Bookhart. That actually worked lol, I feel stupid nowOnly suspicion, no alerts, since nobody was close to Bookhart's body.
"Gold rush north" and "Gold rush south" done too, For south, stowed all enemies into vehicles, shot propane tanks, left the area. And for north, lured 2 heavies and 1 soldier near the mine entrance, stowed them into sedan/muscle car I came in and nearby truck. Went inside, lured 2 enemies in the mine, stowed them as well, shot propane tanks, left the area.
Which leaves me with "Soldiers of Santa Muerte" and "El Cardenal". There's a number of ways I can deal with Santera's sicarios, and killing them myself would be too easy. Or at the very least, not devious enough. My plan is to include civilians and Unidad on this one:
- hijack 3 vehicles in both camps and blow them up 200 meters away
- snipe last 2 vehicles
- hide until suspicion is over
- when/if it's safe to leave the safety of my vehicle, place some flares at the entrance to the first camp or in the middle when Unidad helicopter just happens to be in the neighborhood. Sometimes flares don't work as intended or Unidad was too busy to play turkey shoot at the time. So, I will have to lure one Unidad soldier from the nearby checkpoint, set of a flare and drop a grenade to start the party.
- for second camp I have a lot more options once escape vehicles are dealt with. Example, shooting at the road will alert the civilians and make them speed up, running over a few, or even a lot of sicarios on their path. Everyone should feel included, yes?Once the chaos starts, it's only a matter of time before rebels and/or Unidad join the party.
Senior Member
Yeah, I’m well aware of my bipolar behaviourOriginally Posted by MikeWeeks Go to original postIn that context it would make sense to me that you have to go by how the game counts kills. IOW, you start with new character(s) and no skills, with your kill count for the account recorded. Get to Sueno via the quickest means available, and you see what is the kill count.
Itacua is a good example of how the game counts kills that doesn't seem "right", as mentioned by Venom. However that's how the game is designed and you have a measurement which is recorded. Of course, one can note that x number of "kills" were actually only gun butts to the skull when done, versus as El Muro mentions, putting a bullet to his brain.
I'm also interested in general, how one with a fully kited character would undertake a minimum-kill run thru of a complete campaign.
Now, just for laughs Chris, let's mention the community challenge over in Breakpoint you developed, which is the complete opposite of this.
https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthrea...you-stay-alive
As for tabulating, the way I see it, tactics matter. Non lethal tactics are important in this challenge. It’s better to pistol whip a guy who might walk away than execute him with a bullet in the brain. Every life matters in this challenge. If the game tabulates a knock out as a kill, that’s a game counting error. it’s still not murder... you did not murder that person... right? And we’re trying to determine the least number of murders or kills you need to do. But ultimately, it’s up to the person playing it I guess. Maybe it’s worth noting the number of kills vs knock outs? It’s not a huge number so might be reasonable.
@Venom, no time to watch your videos now, but I will tomorrow. Love your idea of “accidental deaths” from being run over. Mike will hate this
