Originally Posted by
Sweaty_Sock
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Just the sheer payoff for a good trade is circa 70 - 80 damage. The bash kick is not all that easy to avoid when its mixed into the level of UB heavy feint, and its very matchup dependent. Rather than just scream i'll show you the respect of going point by point using your thread post (assuming its still what your going for) - I probably yelled a little hard but some of those were OP as all getout (GB immune dodge in OS, and 500ms crushing counter enhanced light for example). After around 2,600+ hours of gameplay I've seen enough things come and go to freakout when I imagine their impact ingame
These are not so bad in isolation (but any changes like those below would obviously factor in). Standarised run speed/faster running attack are just quality of life changes
I wasnt a fan of the standardised 500ms lights in the game, but done is done so no issue with speeding them up given need these days to beat out HA etc. HOWEVER. Crushing counter 500ms enhanced lights was too much, especially when you factor in the OS options it would guarantee. I see you removed the enhanced property from the first light which makes it seem alot better already, however you are still allowing a 500ms crushing counter light out of the heavy feint, and now also adding a bash that can also guarantee the light.
As your already speeding up defensive stance attacks, buffing the chains, and triggering the HA earlier, I would bin the pommel strike - its too many tools for what is 'defensive stance'. It still needs to be a tad awkward so the aim of the HL is to get into OS to really get stuck in, defensive stance should remain as a step you need to work with to get the offence going and also allow some interesting HA options.
Will address this with kick/toss below.
Zone, to 600 ms - no. Followup 2/3 zone attacks could be sped up no worries., but thats pretty much just adding a 600ms essentially enhanced light that would flow into OS even if blocked & also make the zone out of GB pretty nasty given its not just a second heavy like most champs, rather all the options the OS can give
OS back dodge, no, he already has river-dance for a side dodge
The lights going to 12 could be done, but the speed up no thankyou, FH doesnt need an enhanced light spam at that speed.
Balor's Might
The damage reduction makes sense inline with the buffs, but it all depends on the August patch I suppose, feint window seems fine at 400, just let the softfeint lights come from another direction (even if its always top) at an increased speed to beat out light attack interrupt attempts. I know top is used like this in a few champs but I find it good in that it prevents overuse of a move by making it more predictable but also helps deal with zone option select/parry overuse in an opponent (true you can just feint & drop out of offence for a crushing counter, but the softfeint is already in there).
Now, the others in conjunction with Celtic Curse are where some significant madness is still in there. Your asking for an undodable, un GB able, HA engage that can feint, feint into OS, softfeint into a sidge heavy, which in turn is feintable. Thats to many branching paths for an engage. If you can hard feint you dont need undodgable as you can can to GB, parry a dodge attack etc. and you want the this at an increased range, and coupled with an increased toss speed from OS. Thats just far too many things you can do on an engage especially when you are already buffing the DS moveset to make it more viable.
The feintable kick is insane particularly when you factor in he has a feintable UB heavy that can softeint into that kick which in turn can softeint into a toss.
Hard feint on Celtic curse would be more than enough of a buff.
The OS buffs are a no in terms of the kick and the grab, they are still guaranteeing 33 damage. He has UB to pressure already and these moves are for catching rather than 100% your objective (which seems to be where hes falling down right now). I would much rather see some form of OS dash forward attack to add further pressure and engage and rattle lose mistakes for these moves to be used against.
My own thoughts are much simpler on how to tweak the champ without overtuning, would be a few increases to timings to modernise (ie 500 ms lights), fix his Balors might softfeint light, allow celtic curse to hard feint (top only, but show the red indicator and partial animation and make sure GB vuln ends once feint window has passed), delete the feint into OS from Celtic and then just add a new move attack, akin to zerks heavy-feint-light where a DS heavy feinted will be followed by Balors might rather than another DS heavy (including Celtic Curse so you can hard feint from the top). Its another way to enter OS, gives options, and speeds up the little speed bump that has developed in HL as the game gets faster around him. Ideally make this a buffered input option, where delay will just throw a standard DS heavy to allow parries while buffering the heavy feint heavy upfront will net a Balors. Coupled with a fix to the softfeint OS lights this could add some more aggressive options to get into OS.
Might seem contrary to my issues above but your forgoing HA and risking GB on this so its not something you can just spam in their face, just an option to help drop out of OS into DS and back again to get a better flow, while still keeping DS as a little bit of a 'wall' to get through to OS (unless the transition works and you crushing counter or land a light etc. then its a nice fast flow).
I will add the same explanation here as I have put in another thread - someone has to play devils advocate to stop everyone nodding and agreeing and never scrutinizing their own ideas. Please poke holes in my ideas, its the only way to know if they are watertight. I am saying this because I seem to be getting an undue amount of angst (wont name names) for trying to prevent buff threads turning into echo chambers of everyone just agreeing and not really challenging their own ideas. And yes, sometimes an over the top 'no' is a good way to get that side of things going (proportional to what is being suggested).
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