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@ Knight_Raime
Pretty decent most. Most i'm neutral on or agree with. Not sure about making some things GB invulnerable though. Overall I think you nailed most of defensive form's issues. It's really just too slow overall. I've sometimes thought that he might also benefit from at least one extra way to enter offensive form from his normal form. But i'm not sure if that's needed or how to do that personally. So I don't feel comfortable giving suggestions.
I can understand for the GB invulnerable, like I said before, we can't really know without testing if it's too strong or not but maybe old Raider is an answer to that. The problem is, we don't know what treatment the others heroes will have and if OF GB invulnerable on dodge will become a needed tool later. And for the extra way to enter in Offensive Form, I think Pommel strike can do a pretty well job. But yeah, Highlander is a very complex hero and it's normal for people to don't feel comfortable with giving suggestions.
As far as offensive form goes I don't think it needs to be better defensively. So making his dodges better in anyway is a no go for me. I also don't think his kick into toss mix up really needs to be improved. Not sure if this was the "main" mix up Ubi intended to have or if they intended OF to even have a main mix up. But I think it serves as a good enough tool to use on someone who's OOS. And something to occasionally throw out there. Really the only defensive buff I can think of for OF that I would be fine with is giving good range to his OF lights. As in my untrained view of Highlander i've always looked at his OF lights as a way to poke. Not just to interrupt mix ups but also to mess with someone who's trying to look for a specific mix up/attack. Giving it some range means you can sort of test the waters and poke someone on occasion.
I didn't mention anything about Kick into Caber Toss, it's already balanced. A bit more range to OF light would be welcome. For my part, I use OF lights so that the enemy stops trying to interrupt me and so that I can finally use a kick or something else.
I think we can improve the range/tracking on Caber toss some in order to make the unblockable heavy soft feint into it better. And just make the raw move better. I've often thought about ways to sort of add in his taunt to have some sort of meaningful gameplay to his kit. Currently the taunt functions as sort of a bait on people who are just waiting for an animation. But that's less effective in higher brackets. The big brain play with it at those levels is using it to hide your guard switch change. What if we tried to replicate that same effect for his unblockables too? Something like making them hide the beginning portion of all animations? We could also try to add it into his soft feint options some how. Like instead of heavy soft feint into toss what if you could soft feint the heavy into the taunt to bait a reaction out of the opponent? Unsure how useful that would really be. I just think the taunt could be used a bit more without strictly turning it into a buff of some kind to his kit in a direct manner.
Caber Toss range/tracking is already pretty good. For the softfeint Balor's Might into Caber Toss, it's the same problem has neutral Caber Toss have, the input delay, it can be another thing to improve. Your idea with the taunt is good but the animation of the taunt doesn't really looks like Caber Toss and the voice line is different, another thing to change.
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I think the Caber Toss in the Balor's Might into Caber Toss softfeint is the neutral one, and the neutral one have an input delay who take time. So, it's not really a softfeint because of the input delay, it looks more like a simple feint and that's why no one use that. I Don't know if you understand what I am trying to explainOriginally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
So if we remove the input delay like on Balor's Might into kick, grab or Kick into grab, it will become a good softfeint.
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Nah I get you. I was just trying to deduce if the input delay you were talking about was due to an actual delayed input or if it's caused by the link in time. It sounds like the latter. But i'm unsure if soft feints even have link times. They're supposed to come out 400ms into the previous move. There's no variable soft feint timings anymore afaik so it would be interesting to see if his soft feint is indeed 400ms into the heavy like it should be or if it's not.Originally Posted by Dunmaglass_ Go to original postI think the Caber Toss in the Balor's Might into Caber Toss softfeint is the neutral one, and the neutral one have an input delay who take time. So, it's not really a softfeint because of the input delay, it looks more like a simple feint and that's why no one use that. I Don't know if you understand what I am trying to explain
So if we remove the input delay like on Balor's Might into kick, grab or Kick into grab, it will become a good softfeint.
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Im sorry but this is utterly insane.
Good HL are still some of the best in the game and your looking at straight buffing it all... whats the trade off? What are you sacrificing for this all?
As was mentioned earlier by Klingentaenz3r, if you want to broaden the kit all cool, but the 'cancerous' kick/gb needs to go. That cannot be agreed with more. Its a move that is keeping HL top shelf at the moment, and would be good to remove in exchange for other options. That is something I could get on board with.
But this?! This is a shopping list of 'I want to win plz'
Heavy feints into 500ms lights? Enhanced Lights? So you block a light and now hes in OS. And you want OS to be more defensive? None of this makes any sense, its just a recipe for one broken, op and unbeatable champ. What will happen. Same light into attack crushing response as now, however now its faster for any parry attempt and even if blocked the HL is in OS anyways. I cant believe how many people are saying 'good idea' to a functioning champ being turned into what is clearly just an overturned broken mess that will make raider rework look like a little kitty
And yes, I am aware mechanics change, but rather than ask for reworks you learn what your new attack will be to counter the change in mechanics rather than scream for changes to let you do what you were doing before (changes in timing work both ways, things that were bad may now align with the change to another champ). I'm still rocking shugo in duels, and hes been nerfed for the simple reason hito was. BUT do you scream for massive changes, "I want unblock able lights and headbutt to guarantee a heavy" do you roll with the changes and see what DOES WORK.
Highlander still functions, so elements of the kit DO WORK. If you want to buff then you need to consider that these changes are just adding more power to a viable champ. Whats going to be taken away to level it out? What is this proposed buffs weakness? Tell me, how do you counter this new improved HL? What would be a bad matchup for it?
Its things like THIS that have been breaking this game apart, refusal to get better or adapt and instead of asking for a little bit of a tweak to a champ if they are falling behind, people cry for 12 inch armour plates and a machine gun, while offering nothing in exchange for the added power.
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Makes the pommel strike 600ms.Originally Posted by Dunmaglass_ Go to original post
Then remoove enhanced light on the opener at least, undodgeable property on top attack celtic curse, invulnerability to gb on OS dodges, fast flow into OS from zone and finisher and this rework could be OK.
I would more see it as a bunch of options rather than a rework with all of that.. as it is i agree with Sweaty it is more a shopping list and will create a hero frustrating for the opponent and too easy for the user. Imo
That being said i fully agree he needs a rework and hope he is among the next ones to get it.
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600ms Pommel Strike is too slow, Kensei Pommel Strike is 400ms and no one have problem with that. Only second light attack are enhanced can be more fair Indeed. Offensive dodge invulnerable to GB seems too much for now, no problem to remove that but for the access to Offensive Form with zone attacks and heavy finisher, I think it can be good without being too strong because of the input delay and the stamina you lose before the access + the Offensive Form who use a lot of stamina, at least the zone attacks. Undodgeable Celtic Curse top heavy is a thing to test but we can't, it can keep the fight on and force the enemy player to fight or maybe you have another scenario with that?Originally Posted by Siegfried-Z Go to original post
Other than that, happy to see people react and give their opinion to create something better in the end.
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I dunno about the exact speed of kensei pommel but i believe the bash happen at 400ms into the heavy animation, the bash itself is rather slow.Originally Posted by Dunmaglass_ Go to original post
I tought you were proposing something as fast or faster than Tiandi palm strike but on heavy softfeint.
If it ends being something similar to Valk shield crush for exemple it could be fine.
I understand your point with the undodgeable property, i just dont think it would solve the issue anyway.. if your opponent have a good spacing and positioning he can always roll away from you and run away if he wants to except if you play lets say Shaman or any fast heros with great foward dodge.
That being said it could be a good start in duel at least.
If i should choose between zone or finisher into OS, i would choose finisher because it would motivate people to go for their finisher and entirely use the mix up options at their disposal.
Zone can already be hardfeinted for anything and with better access into os overall i gess it is enough ?
600ms zone doesn't allow a good option select but i also take that in consideration anyway. Being in OS right after an option select is too much imo.
Welcome man, tbh i have only 5 reps with HL, he always interested me but i felt too much frustrated while playing him.. like i either 3 shots my opponent or i can't do what i want at all.
Thats why he needs a rework imo, he already has a ton of tools in his kit but the overall package does not fit the current roaster and loose a lot of his potential because of that lack of fluidity.
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Some of the best in the game? I'm curious to see that. Highlander is weak everywhere, he's slow, easy to counter and that make more than half of his kit useless.Originally Posted by Sweaty_Sock Go to original post
His kick into grab is easy to counter except OOS, you just probably never learn.
This is not a ''I want to win pls'' list, it's a ''I want to use 100% of my kit instead of 10%'' list. And it's the players who decide if they play defensive or not, the Offensive Form is not defensive, just stop spam light if you hate the OF dodge who need real skill unlike bash by example. I'm not sure what you are complaining about but I imagine it has something to do with the dodge.
Yes, people agree because it's obvious that he is not viable, I don't know why you say he is strong.
Learn what? There is nothing to learn, this hero is outdated and the new update coming next month will not help him.
Sure, his kit work if you are lucky in 4v4 mode but only with teammate, in 1 v 1 or anti gank, good luck. Yes that's the purpose of a buff, improve what is weak, Highlander will not become S+ tier with this changes. You will be able to counter him the same way has before but it will be less easier.
After more than 400 hours with my Highlander, you can't say I refuse to get better and adapt, this hero is very limited in high level play and this is a fact.
If you have some ideas, you know what to do.
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Just the sheer payoff for a good trade is circa 70 - 80 damage. The bash kick is not all that easy to avoid when its mixed into the level of UB heavy feint, and its very matchup dependent. Rather than just scream i'll show you the respect of going point by point using your thread post (assuming its still what your going for) - I probably yelled a little hard but some of those were OP as all getout (GB immune dodge in OS, and 500ms crushing counter enhanced light for example). After around 2,600+ hours of gameplay I've seen enough things come and go to freakout when I imagine their impact ingameOriginally Posted by Dunmaglass_ Go to original postSome of the best in the game? I'm curious to see that. Highlander is weak everywhere, he's slow, easy to counter and that make more than half of his kit useless.
His kick into grab is easy to counter except OOS, you just probably never learn.
Yes, people agree because it's obvious that he is not viable, I don't know why you say he is strong.
Learn what? There is nothing to learn, this hero is outdated and the new update coming next month will not help him.
Sure, his kit work sometime in 4v4 mode but only with teammate, in 1 v 1 or anti gank, good luck. Yes that's the purpose of a buff, improve what is weak, Highlander will not become S+ tier with this changes. You will be able to counter him the same way has before but it will be less easier.
After more than 400 hours with my Highlander, you can't say I refuse to get better and adapt, this hero is very limited in high level play and this is a fact.
If you have some ideas, you know what to do.
These are not so bad in isolation (but any changes like those below would obviously factor in). Standarised run speed/faster running attack are just quality of life changesOriginally Posted by Dunmaglass_ Go to original post
I wasnt a fan of the standardised 500ms lights in the game, but done is done so no issue with speeding them up given need these days to beat out HA etc. HOWEVER. Crushing counter 500ms enhanced lights was too much, especially when you factor in the OS options it would guarantee. I see you removed the enhanced property from the first light which makes it seem alot better already, however you are still allowing a 500ms crushing counter light out of the heavy feint, and now also adding a bash that can also guarantee the light.Originally Posted by Dunmaglass_ Go to original post
As your already speeding up defensive stance attacks, buffing the chains, and triggering the HA earlier, I would bin the pommel strike - its too many tools for what is 'defensive stance'. It still needs to be a tad awkward so the aim of the HL is to get into OS to really get stuck in, defensive stance should remain as a step you need to work with to get the offence going and also allow some interesting HA options.
Will address this with kick/toss below.Originally Posted by Dunmaglass_ Go to original post
Zone, to 600 ms - no. Followup 2/3 zone attacks could be sped up no worries., but thats pretty much just adding a 600ms essentially enhanced light that would flow into OS even if blocked & also make the zone out of GB pretty nasty given its not just a second heavy like most champs, rather all the options the OS can giveOriginally Posted by Dunmaglass_ Go to original post
OS back dodge, no, he already has river-dance for a side dodge
The lights going to 12 could be done, but the speed up no thankyou, FH doesnt need an enhanced light spam at that speed.
Balor's MightOriginally Posted by Dunmaglass_ Go to original post
The damage reduction makes sense inline with the buffs, but it all depends on the August patch I suppose, feint window seems fine at 400, just let the softfeint lights come from another direction (even if its always top) at an increased speed to beat out light attack interrupt attempts. I know top is used like this in a few champs but I find it good in that it prevents overuse of a move by making it more predictable but also helps deal with zone option select/parry overuse in an opponent (true you can just feint & drop out of offence for a crushing counter, but the softfeint is already in there).
Now, the others in conjunction with Celtic Curse are where some significant madness is still in there. Your asking for an undodable, un GB able, HA engage that can feint, feint into OS, softfeint into a sidge heavy, which in turn is feintable. Thats to many branching paths for an engage. If you can hard feint you dont need undodgable as you can can to GB, parry a dodge attack etc. and you want the this at an increased range, and coupled with an increased toss speed from OS. Thats just far too many things you can do on an engage especially when you are already buffing the DS moveset to make it more viable.
The feintable kick is insane particularly when you factor in he has a feintable UB heavy that can softeint into that kick which in turn can softeint into a toss.
Hard feint on Celtic curse would be more than enough of a buff.
The OS buffs are a no in terms of the kick and the grab, they are still guaranteeing 33 damage. He has UB to pressure already and these moves are for catching rather than 100% your objective (which seems to be where hes falling down right now). I would much rather see some form of OS dash forward attack to add further pressure and engage and rattle lose mistakes for these moves to be used against.
My own thoughts are much simpler on how to tweak the champ without overtuning, would be a few increases to timings to modernise (ie 500 ms lights), fix his Balors might softfeint light, allow celtic curse to hard feint (top only, but show the red indicator and partial animation and make sure GB vuln ends once feint window has passed), delete the feint into OS from Celtic and then just add a new move attack, akin to zerks heavy-feint-light where a DS heavy feinted will be followed by Balors might rather than another DS heavy (including Celtic Curse so you can hard feint from the top). Its another way to enter OS, gives options, and speeds up the little speed bump that has developed in HL as the game gets faster around him. Ideally make this a buffered input option, where delay will just throw a standard DS heavy to allow parries while buffering the heavy feint heavy upfront will net a Balors. Coupled with a fix to the softfeint OS lights this could add some more aggressive options to get into OS.
Might seem contrary to my issues above but your forgoing HA and risking GB on this so its not something you can just spam in their face, just an option to help drop out of OS into DS and back again to get a better flow, while still keeping DS as a little bit of a 'wall' to get through to OS (unless the transition works and you crushing counter or land a light etc. then its a nice fast flow).
I will add the same explanation here as I have put in another thread - someone has to play devils advocate to stop everyone nodding and agreeing and never scrutinizing their own ideas. Please poke holes in my ideas, its the only way to know if they are watertight. I am saying this because I seem to be getting an undue amount of angst (wont name names) for trying to prevent buff threads turning into echo chambers of everyone just agreeing and not really challenging their own ideas. And yes, sometimes an over the top 'no' is a good way to get that side of things going (proportional to what is being suggested).
