Feedback about Cent's rework | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

I think EvoX for the most part did a good job on covering the rework with his detailed bullet point list. So i'd refer the developers there if they wanted feedback on what they did right.https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthrea...nturion-rework

Instead i'm going to focus on my current issues with the kit. And i'm going to start out with my biggest complaint.

-Charged jab tracking...

The tracking overall on the mix up is...passable. However I do think it needs to be improved down the road in some fashion. Preferably sooner than later. Full charged jab seems to lose it's target capabilities when interacting with quick and/or fast dodge related moves. It just seems to stop tracking before the move is actually released. If the dodge is done early enough this is less noticable. But if they dodge late enough it's far more apparent. Maybe with more experience I can pin down the exact timing for it if there is one.

The far more noticeable one though that would need to be addressed asap is his level 2 bash. Again I have to credit EvoX here again because he pointed it out way back on the TG for Centurion where as I wasn't super concerned with it. After a day of playing with him It's very blatant. His level 2 punch has no extra range or tracking compared to his level 1. It's the same bash just with worse recovery numbers.

The reason this is such a problem is because it means your only threats are a raw jab or a level 3. Making the mix up significantly weaker. Sure, you can say it's still beneficial for feint into GB reasons. But this is the same trap that many supposed Warden players fall into and why they struggle to make him work much better against good players. Delayed feint into GB is not a mix up. You're not doing the level 1 bash anymore so no need to early dodge. And full bash is so blatant that you can dodge it on reaction. Feint into GB is largely meant to catch people who incorrectly time a dodge on uncharged timing.

Part of what makes Warden bash mix ups so insane is his delayed level 2 bash. In otherwords you're charging up till you're just about to hit level 3 and THEN you release. Warden's level 2 bash has more reach due to more distance it covers and afaik this increased reach also lends itself to better tracking. Centurion needs his level 2 bash to be fixed if he's to have any staying power in single picks in the long run. At least in my opinion.


-Running heavy..

To my knowledge this wasn't actually touched upon with the rework. However I bring it up because Centurion's dash heavy is not on par with Warden's Valiant break through. Warden has 2 very decent chase tools both being his dash heavy and also his running attack. Centurion's dash heavy is usable on someone who tries to roll away who's already close. However it's capability of catching someone who's already properly spaced and then tries to leave is inconsistent. Shaman I think has the same issue with her dash heavies but she makes up for it with how good her running heavy is. The threat of that in combo with her good enough dash heavy makes it basically impossible to escape her.

I want Centurion to be somewhere between warden and Shaman in terms of chase down. I feel like this is especially important since his damage profile took a hit overall. (which was deserved.)



-Rock steady and revenge..


To my last point. Rock steady still ignores centurion's punches. I don't understand why Jorge is an exception. The devs are seemingly aware that hero specific CC might be important to their kit as evidence by this. Yet they allow Rock steady to effect centurion's full charged jab. Without his jab centurion is significantly less threatening. Rock steady needs to be changed.

In regards to revenge they normalized centurion's pin and jabs to behave like other cc moves in that the person in revenge is only effected by them if they're not doing anything or are in recovery. Centurion's full charged jab can still floor someone in revenge because of this. I don't think that should be possible. As far as I know Cent's talons still confirms multiple ally attacks. Even if it didn't I don't think cc that puts someone in an extended animation should be effecting someone in revenge period. As is this lets you stall the person in revenge out. Revenge for better or worse is the one tool that actively discourages poor play against enemies. And I think it's a bit too easy to stall it out with things like Cent's jab flooring them.
I'd be in favor of it knocking the person back instead of down. This would still give it some value against someone in revenge.


I think that wraps it up. I enjoy the rework overall and I feel like my other potential misgivings are likely just related to the current state of the game and he'll largely feel better to play once the core fight changes drop. As is I can do more offensively than I used to. But I still feel incapable of pushing buttons due to how reactable ruled the game still is. I also want to give a brief thanks for the rework. Some changes were above and beyond what I expected to get. The new animation and fixed feints being the highlights. And the armor on jab being a very welcome addition. It's very clear that the devs wanted to do this hero right. And it gives me hope just knowing that the devs are capable of some actual quality in their reworks.

[EvoX.]

Warden... the more I think about this hero, the more I realize just how ahead he is of his competition. The only one who has a 3-part mixup with a feint-GB on all 3 timings, all of this accessed from neutral, making him extremely difficult to read and so much more superior to his counterparts Cent and Kiri, who only have an uncharged and fully charge version. That's also without taking into account how safe he is as he's pretty much the only zoner in the game (one that works, so Shinobi doesn't count).

To be completely honest, I don't see why he should be so good anymore. Either everyone is at that level of difficulty to play against, or nobody is, and considering no rework after his has ever even come close to him, I think the devs prefer the latter. It's about time he received some rebalancing.

But anyway. I wish Centurion has his level 2 Jab made a viable tool, although I'm honestly unsure if the devs even know of this, and that Warden having it as a separate timing was simply a development accident that they just haven't replicated. I also wish his GB post-feint was 300ms as it should, Kiri doesn't have this issue. As for dodge attacks beating both the 1 and 3... yeah, it's true. As I wrote in my thread, it is essentially a better version of dodge roll. You dodge on level 1 timing, react to it being a level 3, and do your dodge attack, the extra i-frames making it miss. This is vulnerable to feint to parry, and it isn't possible with everyone that doesn't have a good delay window, but there are a number of heroes that do. I'm also struggling to find a way to beat Conq's version of this, as i can't parry his bash, and dodging it doesn't get me anything. It almost looks like he can completely negate it, so maybe you can tell me what to against him.

''As far as I know Cent's talons still confirms multiple ally attacks.'' Yes and no, it follows standard CC rules now. 1 ally attack makes the opponent instantly stand up, but technically 3 teammates can all land their heavies. As far as I've seen, ally attacks just before the charged Jab hits will make it unable to unbalance, so ganking for a Cent is a bit more difficult now. The new way to ensure the most damage is to do a heavy as they're falling on the ground - they have hyperarmor and it will not mess with Cent's Talons. Then you get another heavy when he does it. Still a powerful gank, but it requires more patient and coordinated teammates (a rarity in MM).

Rock Steady pretty much everyone hates. An easy way to balance it is to just... not allow it to negate hero's kits, and make it grant immunity to just Guardbreak unbalance and wall splats. I highly suspect it will be one of the feats that will get nerfed come August, because you know that Stalwart Banner is also going bye-bye.

As a closing note, touching on that new animation part. There is a very cool one on a fully charged Jab, where winds up from the right, then he passes his sword to his left hand, spins around slightly and Jabs with it instead. Really good touch.

[Knight_Raime]

Warden... the more I think about this hero, the more I realize just how ahead he is of his competition. The only one who has a 3-part mixup with a feint-GB on all 3 timings, all of this accessed from neutral, making him extremely difficult to read and so much more superior to his counterparts Cent and Kiri, who only have an uncharged and fully charge version. That's also without taking into account how safe he is as he's pretty much the only zoner in the game (one that works, so Shinobi doesn't count).

To be completely honest, I don't see why he should be so good anymore. Either everyone is at that level of difficulty to play against, or nobody is, and considering no rework after his has ever even come close to him, I think the devs prefer the latter. It's about time he received some rebalancing.

But anyway. I wish Centurion has his level 2 Jab made a viable tool, although I'm honestly unsure if the devs even know of this, and that Warden having it as a separate timing was simply a development accident that they just haven't replicated. I also wish his GB post-feint was 300ms as it should, Kiri doesn't have this issue. As for dodge attacks beating both the 1 and 3... yeah, it's true. As I wrote in my thread, it is essentially a better version of dodge roll. You dodge on level 1 timing, react to it being a level 3, and do your dodge attack, the extra i-frames making it miss. This is vulnerable to feint to parry, and it isn't possible with everyone that doesn't have a good delay window, but there are a number of heroes that do. I'm also struggling to find a way to beat Conq's version of this, as i can't parry his bash, and dodging it doesn't get me anything. It almost looks like he can completely negate it, so maybe you can tell me what to against him.

''As far as I know Cent's talons still confirms multiple ally attacks.'' Yes and no, it follows standard CC rules now. 1 ally attack makes the opponent instantly stand up, but technically 3 teammates can all land their heavies. As far as I've seen, ally attacks just before the charged Jab hits will make it unable to unbalance, so ganking for a Cent is a bit more difficult now. The new way to ensure the most damage is to do a heavy as they're falling on the ground - they have hyperarmor and it will not mess with Cent's Talons. Then you get another heavy when he does it. Still a powerful gank, but it requires more patient and coordinated teammates (a rarity in MM).

Rock Steady pretty much everyone hates. An easy way to balance it is to just... not allow it to negate hero's kits, and make it grant immunity to just Guardbreak unbalance and wall splats. I highly suspect it will be one of the feats that will get nerfed come August, because you know that Stalwart Banner is also going bye-bye.

As a closing note, touching on that new animation part. There is a very cool one on a fully charged Jab, where winds up from the right, then he passes his sword to his left hand, spins around slightly and Jabs with it instead. Really good touch.

To some extent I understand why kiri and centurion have weaker/different versions of charge bashes. Both heros are supposed to have good tools else where to compensate. Where as Warden is the opposite. His bash is his main tool and his unblockable top heavy is the weaker part of his kit that you don't really use much. If both kiri and Cent had the same effective bash he does that would be power creep....It's my best guess of the situation anyway. Not really say I agree or disagree with it. Personally i'd love if Warden got a kit refresh. But that would be changing his "identity" and the devs hard no that stuff. Oh well.


AFAIK you were the only person I saw talk about the tracking problem. Pretty much everyone else that was being vocal was either fixated on the ability to negate his mix up on reaction or giving praise on the rework. So you could very much be right about them not being aware. His feint to GB is still 400ms? That might explain something for me. When I go to feint into GB his combo heavy be it soft feint or regular it feels fast/fluid. But whenever I attempt to do it with his neutral heavy it feels slower response wise. Good to know. I'm sure I could adapt to doing that. Though i'm personally not happy with the situation regardless. As far as beating a Conq's side dodge i'm afraid I can't help you there. I would think that if they were dodging on indicator that you could just soft feint the opening heavy to GB if they're delaying their dodge bash. But I haven't tried it myself. It having superior block through the entire dodge is definitely something i'm not fond of.


So basically new gank is someone setup his punch. People land their hits on the person and then cent does his talons? Seems inverse of how it used to be. But good to know none the less. I've been solo que with his rework so far so i've not been able to properly test myself. I agree with your nerf. Kit specific CC including standard bashes shouldn't be effected by rock steady. but throws, splats and trips via OOS/revenge parry can be effected by it. I'd also say that it should be moved to a tier 3 feat. As even with the proposed nerfs the things you'd be immune to are still pretty strong. And that sounds like a dope animation. I don't think i've seen that. The one i'm thinking of is the last frame feint where he still looks like he swings a hook a bit but doesn't follow through completely.

[EvoX.]

Just wanted to point out that what I wrote about his new gank is actually completely the opposite. Never hit anyone that was full Jab'd, it will stop their falling, and don't hit them before Cent lands his Talons. What you should do is light or heavy on reaction to a Centurion teammate charging his Jab or the opponent getting pinned. This will either hit or block stun the opponent for a guaranteed full charge. Then you get your attack normally when he gets stabbed.

[Knight_Raime]

Just wanted to point out that what I wrote about his new gank is actually completely the opposite. Never hit anyone that was full Jab'd, it will stop their falling, and don't hit them before Cent lands his Talons. What you should do is light or heavy on reaction to a Centurion teammate charging his Jab or the opponent getting pinned. This will either hit or block stun the opponent for a guaranteed full charge. Then you get your attack normally when he gets stabbed.

So you setup to guarantee the jab>cent does talons>everyone else hits after?

I thought that's how his old gank used to work?

[EvoX.]

You now need to setup every time, whereas before there was no need to on a pin. The jabbed opponent also had HA, so you could hit an additional heavy while they were falling down for even more damage. Jab will also no longer unbalance if they're in a ''bind'', so if they CGB or are in another form of special stun, it will fail - before it just ignored those rules and downed them anyways.

Definitely has been weakened a great deal in terms of ease of access.

[Knight_Raime]

You now need to setup every time, whereas before there was no need to on a pin. The jabbed opponent also had HA, so you could hit an additional heavy while they were falling down for even more damage. Jab will also no longer unbalance if they're in a ''bind'', so if they CGB or are in another form of special stun, it will fail - before it just ignored those rules and downed them anyways.

Definitely has been weakened a great deal in terms of ease of access.

Good to know.