1. #11
    Originally Posted by Slyrr7 Go to original post
    And not only that - there are still some people (perhaps even in this thread) who seem to be trying to make excuses for all the cheating. Either saying 'they're trying'. Or 'It's too hard', they seem to want to try and browbeat us into giving in and putting up with it. You have to wonder why. Even when confronted with clear video proof of the recoil scripts, there are some people who still insist that it's not cheating, trying to tell us that 'Oh, they're just really good at groping the mouse'.

    It's tough to know if they really think that isn't cheating, or if they're just being stubborn. There's no way to 'drag' a mouse in such a way as to eliminate all recoil the way that we see every day through the kill cams. Yet we still get people saying 'Believe what we say, not what you see.' What we see is cheating. If other companies can put a stop to it, why can't UBI? We know it would be a tough job. But they have to start somewhere if they want to have any credibility as a professional enterprise.

    Again - we will see if they deliver on their boasts. They said 'we're working on it'. Whatever they're cooking up, it had better be good.
    I don't defend it but I appreciate and have some understanding of how difficult it is to just "fix anticheat". Don't get me wrong either, some people do use recoil scripts/macros, others don't. You come across as the type of person to assume the worst and accuse everyone though when it's not always the case. I can control Twitch's F2 pretty damn well to a spot a lot of the time.

    And again, you see BattlEye ban a lot of people each day, can it be improved? Heck yes, and they are looking to do so.

    Originally Posted by The_.Riddler Go to original post
    In other news - after it smacked into an iceberg the owners and operators of the Titanic have CLEARLY stated that they are looking at their deck chairs to find a way to improve their arrangement.

    Look, we applaud anything that helps ... but improving BattlEye is only going to be a slight fiddling of the margins. It's nothing to get excited about. It's not going to substantively improve anything. If BattlEye was any good at dealing with the ESP hacks, the scripting, M&K cheating on consoles, and so on then we wouldn't be where we are today. To actually address the cheating that is common in Siege today it is going to take a lot more than just fiddling with a few of the knobs and dials on BattlEye. Again - any improvement is SOMETHING ... but goofing off with BattlEye is nothing but bunting.

    You aren't picking up what the clip is putting down and it comes off as a bit of reality-denial. That clip is clearly someone using a recoil script to entirely remove recoil. The reticle isn't moving vertically at all. No amount of "pull down" can do what is happening in that clip. And Slyrr is right ... that sort of cheating is happening in every match. People who pretend that it's perfectly normal for weapons to not have one pixel of vertical recoil are living in denial. When there's no vertical recoil, it's cheating. Period. End of story. Anyone who says otherwise is absolutely 100% wrong.

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    No one denies that coding is difficult. But as you say .. Ubi has the stats. The problem is that they aren't USING the information they have. Every player has statistics that are generated as they play. All that data ... every iota of it ... should be used to detect and ban cheaters. When a player runs around with zero vertical recoil on their weapon they should get banned. When players are somehow magically able to track a player through three walls to get perfectly timed shots then they should be banned. When players move faster than they should be able to ... appear in places they shouldn't be able to get to ... and perform any in-game feats that their statistics say are out of the ordinary then they should be banned.

    We have the solution. The solution is to use the facts, data, and information that Ubisoft already has at their disposal to analyze and ban players who are performing at levels that the game's design shows as unfeasible. They have the data. They should use it. Aggressively.
    Siege was in a much worse state pre-BattlEye. Heck you even had no killcam in Ranked, it was horrid. The way we believe that BattlEye works, is that it monitors then terminates anyone using that cheat/exploit thus catching the closet cheaters to. As for BattlEye and MnK on console, BattlEye isn't on console and as the Ubi reps have said in other threads that needs to be addressed by Sony/MS. Ubi have already disabled native MnK support it's not their fault Xim controllers register as a normal controller of sorts.

    I already addressed the clip, see above.
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  2. #12
    The way we believe that BattlEye works, is that it monitors then terminates anyone using that cheat/exploit thus catching the closet cheaters to.


    That's what it is supposed to do ... but clearly isn't. What we 'believe' doesn't matter. What matters is what BattlEye actually does ... and at the moment BattlEye isn't catching recoil scripts, ESP hacks, and many other scripts, exploits, and macros that players are using to get around BattlEye and cheat.

    As for BattlEye and MnK on console, BattlEye isn't on console and as the Ubi reps have said in other threads that needs to be addressed by Sony/MS.
    Ubisoft needs to step up and quit diving into the tall grass on this issue. Fobbing off the blame onto Sony or MS isn't good enough. Sony and MS aren't going to do anything because Siege isn't their game. The solution has to come from Ubi ... and it is simply untrue that Ubisoft "can't" do anything about M&K on consoles because they can. There are hardware limitations that console controllers have built into the game. ANY player whose metrics exceed what is physically possible with console controllers should be banned. You don't have to have any fancy "detection". You don't have to dive into user hardware or storage to find anything. All Ubi has to do is monitor it's own data and ban people who display data that is impossible to perform on a console. That's something 100% possible on the Ubisoft side ... if they would commit to the issue and do what was necessary.

    I already addressed the clip, see above.
    I saw nothing that addressed the clip. What I saw was a hand-wave that ignored the clip with an inaccurate claim that all a person has to do to entirely remove all recoil is to "pull the mouse down". Watch the clip again. When a player is tracking a target horizontally (through a wall mind you!) and doesn't even have so much as one pixel of vertical recoil then they are cheating. I challenge anyone here to record themselves playing a match where they are using Cav's pistol, strafing left, firing as fast as possible, tracking a target horizontally, and while doing all this there is not one pixel of vertical recoil. Cav's pistol doesn't work that way ... unless you're cheating.
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  3. #13
    Originally Posted by The_.Riddler Go to original post
    That's what it is supposed to do ... but clearly isn't. What we 'believe' doesn't matter. What matters is what BattlEye actually does ... and at the moment BattlEye isn't catching recoil scripts, ESP hacks, and many other scripts, exploits, and macros that players are using to get around BattlEye and cheat.
    Does BattlEye still ban people daily? Yes. So it is doing it's job but Ubi accept it's not doing enough, hence their statement about improving the bridge. Who knows what that'll mean in the future, we'll just have to wait and see. Truthfully, I don't know the ins and outs of what BattlEye does, but I do know before BattlEye it was a lot worse. This season has also been plagued with cheaters, and I'm glad Ubi acknowledged that.

    Ubisoft needs to step up and quit diving into the tall grass on this issue. Fobbing off the blame onto Sony or MS isn't good enough. Sony and MS aren't going to do anything because Siege isn't their game. The solution has to come from Ubi ... and it is simply untrue that Ubisoft "can't" do anything about M&K on consoles because they can. There are hardware limitations that console controllers have built into the game. ANY player whose metrics exceed what is physically possible with console controllers should be banned. You don't have to have any fancy "detection". You don't have to dive into user hardware or storage to find anything. All Ubi has to do is monitor it's own data and ban people who display data that is impossible to perform on a console. That's something 100% possible on the Ubisoft side ... if they would commit to the issue and do what was necessary.
    Ubi don't control what people plug into their consoles, nor how those consoles pick up those devices. That is not a Ubi issue. Other games suffer the same issue to, it's not just a R6S mouse and keyboard problem on console.

    I saw nothing that addressed the clip. What I saw was a hand-wave that ignored the clip with an inaccurate claim that all a person has to do to entirely remove all recoil is to "pull the mouse down". Watch the clip again. When a player is tracking a target horizontally (through a wall mind you!) and doesn't even have so much as one pixel of vertical recoil then they are cheating. I challenge anyone here to record themselves playing a match where they are using Cav's pistol, strafing left, firing as fast as possible, tracking a target horizontally, and while doing all this there is not one pixel of vertical recoil. Cav's pistol doesn't work that way ... unless you're cheating.
    To quote myself:
    Don't get me wrong either, some people do use recoil scripts/macros, others don't. You come across as the type of person to assume the worst and accuse everyone though when it's not always the case. I can control Twitch's F2 pretty damn well to a spot a lot of the time.
    Judging from your reactions to, I don't believe you know how the macros/scripts work. They mimic an action, essentially anything a recoil/macro script can do, you can actually do yourself. There's exceptions like there was a bug you could do to have no recoil or minimal recoil bit that was patched out.
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  4. #14
    I respectfully disagree that my concerns regarding that video clip were addressed. All that was said was 'that's not really cheating'. The cheating player was firing Caviera's pistol, and all it was doing was scaling the pistol model slightly backwards. That's impossible. No matter how you 'hold the mouse'.

    You can't just bat that aside by saying the cheats only 'mimic what you can actually do in game'. Any honest player who has ever fired Caviera's Lusion pistol knows you can't keep the crosshairs THAT pixel-perfect on target, while holding down the fire button. In the comparison clip in which I was firing that weapon? I was 'pulling down on the mouse' (and I've had lots of practice). And this was under ideal conditions without me moving around or anyone shooting at me. I was doing all I could to land every bullet in the same place. It cannot be done. The Lusion doesn't work that way. But his Lusion did.

    This shouldn't even be an argument - the guy was cheating. Why won't some people just admit it? I put it to any UBI folks who may have seen that clip. You tell us. Is that how the Lusion is supposed to behave while rapid firing? Are all weapons supposed to have zero recoil like that? Because if the company will look at that footage and then say in a post here, 'Yeah, that's how it's supposed to look when you fire that weapon', then I promise I'll take it all back. Then file a new complaint, because that sure as heck ain't how my Lusion behaves. And if it's supposed to have zero recoil like that? Then I want UBI to edit my game so my weapons behave just like the guys in that clip.

    I would further challenge any player who says that kind of zero-recoil is normal - prove it. Record a clip of yourselves firing a zero-recoil Lusion and post it here, so we can see it. Preferably with a side-by-side shot of your hand, on the mouse, while you're playing, so you can show us 'how it's done'. Because I think anyone who says they can achieve that kind of perfection manually is full of baloney. The only way to do that is if you have cheats installed to have the computer do the compensating for you. Again to the OP. This kind of cheating needs to be addressed in a HUGE way. And I agree, they're going to have to do a lot better than just shaking a finger at the people who run BattlEye, and telling them to try jiggling the handle. We'll see what they come up with. We'll be watching with extreme interest.
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  5. #15
    Ubi don't control what people plug into their consoles, nor how those consoles pick up those devices. That is not a Ubi issue
    Ubi doesn't control what people plug in their console. Ubisoft controls who is and isn't allowed to log into their game. And what I'm saying is that Ubisoft should not allow anyone to log into the game when the data (that Ubisoft collects) shows that person is performing in ways that are not possible. So if a console player is spinning his screen and performing multiple actions in ways that are not possible on a console controller (which is information Ubisoft collects) then Ubisoft should have a system in place to ban players whose numbers exceed what the game should allow respective to the platform they are on. So while Ubisoft can't control what's plugged into a console, they can certainly control who can log into the game and ban those people on consoles whose gameplay measurements fall outside the thresholds that a console and controller would allow.

    Judging from your reactions to, I don't believe you know how the macros/scripts work.
    You are incorrect in your belief. A recoil script is a program that runs in Windows which when you push your attack button on your mouse it intervenes and executes a series of "compensations" to the mouses. So while the game is telling the screen to add "X" and "Y" amount of vertical and horizontal recoil, the script is telling the MOUSE to subtract "X" and "Y". So the computer/game is adding vertical and horizontal recoil to what you see and at the same time the mouse script is subtracting it. The net result to the user is that there is "0" recoil.

    Now - smart cheaters know that having 0 recoil makes what they're doing really obvious (such as the dumb cheater in Slyrr's video). When you see zero recoil at all then that's a clear tell that the macro is perfectly written so as to reduce the "X" and "Y" to exactly zero. That's what a beginner does. Smart players who don't want to get caught don't do that. Smart players adjust their macro (individually to the weapon and operator) so that if the weapon's recoil is adding X+50 and Y+30 then the macro will respond with X-45 and Y-27. In other words they don't entirely remove recoil ... they just reduce it so much that it is effectively not a concern. Then when someone looks at the kill-cam or a video they have plausible deniability because the recoil wasn't entirely gone while at the same time they were enjoying such a tremendous advantage over non-cheaters that it makes them look like they're really good at aiming ... when in reality they are nothing but slimy, no-talent, scumbag cheaters.

    anything a recoil/macro script can do, you can actually do yourself.
    No human being can physically control their vertical recoil to the point where they have 0 pixels of vertical bounce in the circumstances we're seeing in-game every day. The video clip is a perfect example of recoil script cheating. Just accept it and move on.
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  6. #16
    Originally Posted by Slyrr7 Go to original post
    I respectfully disagree that my concerns regarding that video clip were addressed. All that was said was 'that's not really cheating'. The cheating player was firing Caviera's pistol, and all it was doing was scaling the pistol model slightly backwards. That's impossible. No matter how you 'hold the mouse'.

    You can't just bat that aside by saying the cheats only 'mimic what you can actually do in game'. Any honest player who has ever fired Caviera's Lusion pistol knows you can't keep the crosshairs THAT pixel-perfect on target, while holding down the fire button. In the comparison clip in which I was firing that weapon? I was 'pulling down on the mouse' (and I've had lots of practice). And this was under ideal conditions without me moving around or anyone shooting at me. I was doing all I could to land every bullet in the same place. It cannot be done. The Lusion doesn't work that way. But his Lusion did.
    Pull down while clicking.
    I've done couple:


    And I was legit explaining to you what they do. A macro or a script is a sequence of usually key presses, especially in the case of macro. People can practice and get extremely good with guns. Look at GodlyNoob with Cav for example. And I took that gif after about 5 maybe 10 minutes of trying to get the recoil down. I probably would be as good in a moving or shooting at someone situation but if I practiced enough I rpobably could.

    This shouldn't even be an argument - the guy was cheating. Why won't some people just admit it? I put it to any UBI folks who may have seen that clip. You tell us. Is that how the Lusion is supposed to behave while rapid firing? Are all weapons supposed to have zero recoil like that? Because if the company will look at that footage and then say in a post here, 'Yeah, that's how it's supposed to look when you fire that weapon', then I promise I'll take it all back. Then file a new complaint, because that sure as heck ain't how my Lusion behaves. And if it's supposed to have zero recoil like that? Then I want UBI to edit my game so my weapons behave just like the guys in that clip.
    I've already said to, that there are some people that are cheating, without a doubt but you have to remember there are people who are legit to.

    I would further challenge any player who says that kind of zero-recoil is normal - prove it. Record a clip of yourselves firing a zero-recoil Lusion and post it here, so we can see it. Preferably with a side-by-side shot of your hand, on the mouse, while you're playing, so you can show us 'how it's done'. Because I think anyone who says they can achieve that kind of perfection manually is full of baloney. The only way to do that is if you have cheats installed to have the computer do the compensating for you. Again to the OP. This kind of cheating needs to be addressed in a HUGE way. And I agree, they're going to have to do a lot better than just shaking a finger at the people who run BattlEye, and telling them to try jiggling the handle. We'll see what they come up with. We'll be watching with extreme interest.
    I'll do a side by side tomorrow with the camera on my hand to.

    If you want to see what cheating actually looks like on Siege check the tabwire reddit / twitter / r6shame. They show it often enough.
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  7. #17
    Originally Posted by Danwolf. Go to original post
    Does BattlEye still ban people daily? Yes. So it is doing it's job but Ubi accept it's not doing enough, hence their statement about improving the bridge. Who knows what that'll mean in the future, we'll just have to wait and see. Truthfully, I don't know the ins and outs of what BattlEye does, but I do know before BattlEye it was a lot worse. This season has also been plagued with cheaters, and I'm glad Ubi acknowledged that.



    Ubi don't control what people plug into their consoles, nor how those consoles pick up those devices. That is not a Ubi issue. Other games suffer the same issue to, it's not just a R6S mouse and keyboard problem on console.



    To quote myself:

    Judging from your reactions to, I don't believe you know how the macros/scripts work. They mimic an action, essentially anything a recoil/macro script can do, you can actually do yourself. There's exceptions like there was a bug you could do to have no recoil or minimal recoil bit that was patched out.
    See id believe you bout xims if other devs didnt already make attempts at a solution. Respawn whose under the most money hungry umbrella called ea has put money into finding a solution and epic actually did somewhat succed at banning them for a bit i say somewhat because they did have a fair amount of false positives as well. Ubi is the only dev thats laid it on MS and sony to my knowledge i could be wrong bout that.

    Look im not asking ubi to magic up a solution in 2 days. But real acknowledgment of the issue and just saying that they are looking into solutions would go a long way even if nothing changed. Also why its not as big of a deal in other games is because those games 1 have aim assist and 2 their shooting mechanics are way more streamlined without aim assist. Sieges aim movements play like a crappy port whereas games like cod and battlefield are fluid even without aim assist.
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  8. #18
    I've sttoped to play the game 100%. No money to a company that doesn't give a rat *** about the players that play it all day.
    Better spend money on a big event, rather to pay a company to a good/powerfull anti-cheat.
    If the company priorities are twisted, the rest will follow. Not gonna even update it until i come to this forum and see some change.
    Say this with a heart broken, love the game and all mecanics of it.
    Regards
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  9. #19
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  10. #20
    Hm - interesting to see a little bit of their roadmap on the topic of cheating. I would say that this document gives a helpful "overview" of their generic behavior, but I find it to be woefully vague in terms of the cheats that are functionally ruining the game. All the recoil scripting and ESP cheating in particular has turned Siege into a constant exercise in frustration. Every match these days is boiling down to a couple of cheaters on each team dominating the match and who wins is almost entirely dependent on who has more cheaters. It's gotten to the point where you actually WANT at least 1 cheater on your team because you KNOW that the other team has (X) cheaters on it and you're just going to get clobbered unless you have a cheater on your team to provide some counterbalance.

    And as nice as it is to see this Dev Blog, there really isn't much in here that gives any real hope that Ubi has a solid, actionable plan to deal with these specific cheats. They don't even MENTION them specifically. Aside from some very generic "better detection" comments there isn't much to provide hope here for improvement in the tsunami of cheating the game has. I do like how they mention that they are trying to use 'data models' to detect cheating more. I approve of using data to model cheaters. I hope it works.

    I wish the "Making life hard for cheaters" section actually discussed the punishments they would apply to people who cheat. All it does as far as I can tell is talk about minor inconveniences to accounts. Where's the tough talk of hardware bans, account-wide closures, and legal action against makers of cheats?
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