1. #1
    macrosdxc's Avatar Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    4

    Getting better with different controllers

    Spoiler:  Show
    Sorry I might do mistakes, English is not my first language


    Hello party people!

    About 1.5 months ago I discovered Just Dance, and it became a part a aprt of my everyday routine (lol) instantly. Even though I'm not really a fit guy I managed to hit numerous Megastars with JD Controller, with the highest 12900 on Peanut Butter Jelly (gj on this one devs, super fun) and keep on improving scores (Youtube performances turned out to be very helpful with some tricky moves). So I felt kinda competitive and started exploring alternative controllers and researching forums and themed communities, but there are a few problems left I couldn't find a soultion for.

    JD Controller: So overall the experience was satisfying, but how do I get better at repetitive moves? In the running section of Sushi I have never ever got even a single Perfect, only Supers sometimes dropping down to Goods, even though throwing arms in the air moves are always Perfects for me. I've been watching Youtube performances and experimenting with ways I do this move, but nothing helped.

    PS Move: I've betting slightly lower scores compared to JD Controller, but I might get used to it over time. The problem with repetitive moves remained, but scoring for some moves was better compared to JD Controller though. But there's one thing that just gets to me: PS Move will only give OKs for fast sharp moves like this one in 365 (pic 1) and the very first verse move of Skibidi (pic 2), even though with JD Controller I've never had issues with these. Should I keep trying or could it be an issue with the controller?



    PS Camera: Posts from Warfutt and greekphysics have been very helpful, and I've reached some success in setting up the camera, but that was not enough for my case.

    1. Lighting: There are three possible light sources availible for me: 6 cool light bulb chandelier (bulbs pointing in different directions so light distribution is on point), two warm light bulb bras (I'm staning between them) and 3m wide window. The background is light and consistent. I've tried different combinations light sources, but my silhouette remained very twitchy. I'm not sure if that affected my scoring, but I thought it might have something to do with it.

    2. Capturing: I was able to reach 3m distance between the camera and me. Nothing ever interfered with me, there was never a single hole even though I was using t-shirts with prints. However, after I start a song, in the box above my nickname apparently I appear close: my legs are cut somewhere at knees level, and there are some place between the edge of the box and legs. Also, If I'd raise my arms straight up, part of them would not fit in the box (I don't think it caused any problems, just an observation). My height is approx. 195cm/6"5'. I've tried different camera heights: on top of my TV (150 cm), on the TV stand (70 cm), and tried different distances (2/2.5/3m). I've checked the camera capturing and I've made sure my entire body from the heels to the top of my head was in the spot and there was a little additional space above and under me. I've tried different background contrasting wear, but all was the same. It was shocking for me given the Youtube dancers' silhouettes always fit in the box or even appear very small like in Littlesiha's highlights (which helped me fix numerous mistakes :D). The cut legs issue remained, and I've ran out of ideas.

    3. Scoring: Apparently with Camera you get much lower scoring for not moving legs. Some legs involving moves were captured proprely, but for most I've been getting only Xs. I managed to reach Superstar on Peanut Butter Jelly and Sushi (I barely had to put any effort to get all Perfects in the running section, finally some good news, some other moves felt more forgiving compared to JD Controller). I was not as lucky with other songs. I couldn't score anything on Skibidi. I Like It was troublesome too: for some reason unfailable moves like this on in the second verse (pic 3) were converting into Xs as if I did not do it. Arms swinging section was very poor even though I was aware I should turn my body a little and bend knees, and I only finished at 6400 while my hi-score is 12700 with phone.



    What do you guys think? Any input is appreciated. Thank you and stay well!
    Share this post

  2. #2
    While there can be a huge difference between scoring experiences when comparing remote/phone game play to camera/Kinect game play, I too have seen significant discrepancies when comparing different types of remotes and phones. In 2017, for example, I used my smart phone for a few dances to compare the phone experience to the remote experience. It was interesting that I could score better on some dances by hundreds of points using a phone, and worse on other dances by hundreds or thousands of points. What was even more interesting is that when I discussed this with other players, I found that other players actually did better with a remote than a phone on dances where I did better with a phone than a remote, and vice-versa.

    The obvious difference between a Wii U remote, a Switch Joy-Con, a PS move controller, and different kinds of phones is the shape, size, and weight of the controller. The grip is a little different, the effect (albeit small, but trackable) on arm and hand motions is different. I don't like the prescribed grip of the Wii U remote, Switch Joy-Con, or phone. My thumb and fingers tend to move around unless I concentrate on this (which distracts me from the dance), and after enough dances to have sweaty hands it gets worse. The only remote that feels comfortable to me is the PS Move, but I have only tried it out a few times; although the individual scores seemed better when I used PS Move, my overall scores seemed to be about the same or only slightly improved in the few dances where I tested it out. (Perhaps if I had the patience to stick with it longer...) But again what's interesting is that different players have different experiences and opinions about which remote/phone/controller works best for them and is more comfortable for them.

    There must also be some technological differences. Perhaps the tracking isn't quite the same, or one kind of "remote" tracks certain qualities of the dance better than others. Maybe the scoring even factors technological differences in to the equation.

    Remote/phone scoring is fascinating to me. I wish I better understood it and I wish there were a few short official videos serving as a guide for some basic things to try to do and to avoid, and showing a few great moves made by a 13k dancer versus average moves made by other dancers, to help enlighten more players about a few things they should be striving to do better.

    The most important thing is arguably the rhythm, but the main rhythm is pretty easy to achieve, especially for the main moves, and the game must have various ways of determining who is dancing better than others. Rhythms can even be complex, involving under rhythms or rhythms of multiple body parts, like with the lower body doing one rhythm while the arms do another. With a remote/phone, the detection is directly related to the right hand, so motion of the right arm, wrist, hand, fingers are very important to the scoring, and occasionally the combined motions of these body parts can be rather intricate. I always wonder about the fingers, fists, rolling of fingers, holding one, two, or three fingers in the air, exactly what is the remote/phone looking for. I liked Littlesiha's interpretation of one of the dances while she was holding a Switch Joy-Con and the fingers of the coach were moving. Then often the coach's palm is open, but my fingers are wrapped around a remote, and that's another detail that bothers me. This all relates to technique, but sometimes it seems that the remote/phone detection can pick up on technique, not just rhythm. (Or maybe when I experiment with technique, I finally find a technique that helps me better match the rhythm.)

    In 2015 and 2017 there were some dances where I gripped the remote very lightly, others where I gripped it tightly, and a few where I concentrated on changing the lightness of my grip for certain moves. When I tried the Switch Joy-Con a little in 2018, I don't remember this making any noticeable difference, but I didn't really use the remote/phone enough to tell, and this year I haven't tried a remote or phone at all. In 2017 when I watched video challenges, I noted that some of the amazing top dancers looked particularly smooth with their motions, and the game can probably detect the smoothness of some motions and transitions, change of speeds, etc. In 2018, I encountered a few moves where the full body definitely impacted remote/phone scoring. Back in 2015 and 2017 when I used the remote a lot, I spent a great deal of time trying to master the transitions between sequences, as I found these to be tougher to learn. I felt like I would eventually figure out the sequences of repeated moves with enough practice and experimentation, but the top dancers are learning to nail those transitions.

    With camera and Kinect game play, I feel like it's more visual, that if I study video and practice in front of a mirror I can figure out what mistakes I'm making. But the same principle applies to remote/phone game play to an extent. There are always a few details that I overlook when I first watch the dance, and I need to find these little details to improve my scores.

    Personally, I score better with Kinect and the PS4 camera, hitting more 13k's and doing it more consistently, but since I've learned to dance better, I have only tried the remote or phone a little bit, so perhaps if I put as much effort into remote game play as I do into Kinect game play my remote scores would be better. The PS4 camera is a pain to setup right though.

    As for the lighting, I would test it out at night, especially if there aren't any bright lights outside (porch lights, street lights, etc.). If you can get it to work better at night, then you know that sunlight entering through windows is a problem and you can work to eliminate it. If it works about the same, you might not need to worry about the sunlight after all during the day. Home improvement stores sell temporary blackout blinds, they are basically made of paper, you buy wider than you need and cut them with scissors, and they have adhesive at the top (and peel off later). Another option is aluminum foil, a dark blanket, there are ways to block sunlight on a budget if it turns out to be a problem (but I would check that it is a problem before wasting energy to block it).

    The position of the lights is also important. An overhead light doesn't leave too much shadow when you're directly below it, but your shadow grows when you have to dance away from the center. But it makes it difficult for the game to see space between your legs when the dance calls for your legs to be apart. Other lighting locations can give you shadows that make it difficult for the game to see how many legs you have, let along what the leg angles are. A light a bit above the t.v. (so the t.v. doesn't block it even when you dance toward the t.v.) can put the shadow behind your body relative to the camera, but many rooms don't naturally have a light in this position. Then getting the right amount of light is an issue. Bright enough globe lights on the floor behind you might help a little with shadows. It really takes a lot of experimentation to optimize the room, and if you have limited resources, you're limited on how much you can experiment.

    You definitely need the camera to see your legs (and your arms when raised) as your whole body affects the scoring. I saw a PS4 video on YouTube this year where the player obviously lost thousands of points on a dance because the camera wanted to score leg moves that it couldn't detect. I remember encountering a similar issue when I used the PS4 camera in 2019. It seems like I went to one of the options to setup or adjust the camera outside of the game. One of these seems to expect you to be sitting in a chair to use the camera, but in the game you're going to be standing up generally. I remember being very persistent, going through those out-of-game camera setup and adjustment options until I finally got it to display my full-body in the game. There is also the camera height and angle to play with, and how far I am from the camera both at the beginning of the dance and back out of the game when setting up and adjusting the camera settings. I experimented a great deal with as many combinations as I could think of until it seemed to work (and then I try not to even breathe in the direction of anything I don't want to move, ha ha).

    Back to the lighting, I was making the room brighter and darker, I liked it when the camera feed of my face at the beginning of the dance wasn't so bright that blue and yellow both looked white or the same color, but not so dark that it was grainy, somewhere in between was my happy medium. But when I tested out the older camera with the same criteria that worked for me with the new camera, it didn't work as well or that. The system is pretty fickle. I think if I didn't have Xbox Kinect, I would probably strive to master PS Move and use the camera as a supplement.

    Good luck and happy dancing. (If you haven't already asked Warfutt about your lighting situation on his 2017 post about the PS4 camera, I would recommend doing so in case he doesn't find your post here, though even over there it might be weeks before he comes to check).
    Share this post

  3. #3
    macrosdxc's Avatar Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    4
    In 2018, I encountered a few moves where the full body definitely impacted remote/phone scoring.
    It was surprising for me first how certain songs are not really sensitive to side moving while others are demanding (like final verse section or Y.M.C.A. where you have to walk in a circle swapping places with adjacent dancer).

    If you can get it to work better at night, then you know that sunlight entering through windows is a problem and you can work to eliminate it. If it works about the same, you might not need to worry about the sunlight after all during the day.
    When I was messing with the lighting it was a cloudy day, and illumination from outside was quite low but still considerable. I tried using daylight both as the only illumination source and as additional to bulbs, but it felt like there was no difference when I examined my silhouette. I also have an option to block daylight with curtains.

    The position of the lights is also important. An overhead light doesn't leave too much shadow when you're directly below it, but your shadow grows when you have to dance away from the center.
    The bulbs are parallel to the ceiling but pointing slightly towards it. When dancing I'm standing slightly behind the chandelier but I also have an option to move a little forward and stand under it, so I don't think I'm going to have any problems with shadows.

    I remember encountering a similar issue when I used the PS4 camera in 2019. It seems like I went to one of the options to setup or adjust the camera outside of the game. One of these seems to expect you to be sitting in a chair to use the camera, but in the game you're going to be standing up generally. I remember being very persistent, going through those out-of-game camera setup and adjustment options until I finally got it to display my full-body in the game.
    I didn't really think about messing with out-of-game camera settings as I expected everything to be automated like in PS Move case. This is definitely something that I missed. I'll see what I can do when I get my hands on camera next time. Thank you!
    Share this post

  4. #4
    macrosdxc's Avatar Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    4
    So finally I got a Camera again and I had some time to test different setups. I've reached significant improvements, but few issues are still present.

    Regarding cut leg capture: I messed with camera position some more and was readjusting camera in PS4 settings every time I changed it's position or when I took different distance to it. Putting camera at half-height level (about 90cm) doesn't work for me: strangely lots of noises appeared around me, and my scoring got much worse compared to 150cm camera height. I could only get the camera to capture my entire body only when I placed it on the floor, but scoring actually got a little worse.

    Daylight felt great as the only source of illumination. Bulbs felt a little excess but removing one or two might do the job.

    As I got more used to Camera, I returned to base position (150cm camera height / 1.8-2m distance) and it started working good-ish as I tried more different songs even though legs were still cut. Then I noticed that in that position my silhouette fits the entire box: top of my head touches the upper border, and my knees are at the lower border. Right now scoring is much better for me: finally I reached 12800 on Old Town Road and 12000 on OMG (I could barely do 11500-11000 on these with JD Controller) - really happy about it! Though I can't get Perfects for some obvious moves like circle leg swings on Vodovorot, but I'll keep figuring it out.

    Now I came to conclusion that whatever happens and whatever setup I try, it seems like camera always expects me to be 2m away from it even though I'm trying 2.5m and 3m distances and readjusting camera. I don't think it's really bad as my leg moves capturing got much better though not perfect, but at the same time I don't think this is how camera is supposed to work. Cut legs problem probably won't remain crucial for me, yet I'd love to hear more ideas on how to get my entire body in the box.

    I keep having issues with poor scoring on moves where you have to move your arms in front of your body. The doing semicircles with arms move during verses of Vodovorot doesn't get captured at all (getting rare OK's occasionally). Skibidi scoring got better, but that same first chorus move doesn't get recognized at all.
    Share this post

  5. #5
    In my case, I got the best results with a single photography bulb a bit above the t.v. and no other lighting, but what works for one setup may not be right for another. I experimented a lot to find what seems to work for me. I also experimented a lot with distances and the camera settings outside of the game (perhaps there are two different places outside of the game to adjust this; one might be in settings, camera setup or something like that), and where/how to stand while adjusting the camera settings. There was a point where I had trouble getting my whole body to show at the beginning of the dance, but I was persistent and didn't dance until I got this resolved. (Of course, the camera shows a close-up of the player's face at the beginning. I'm looking at the body-outline image, waving my arms and legs around, seeing that my full body, with arms raised, from hand to foot, even if I walk a couple of steps toward the camera during the dance, shows in full without being clipped. I make sure of this before I start the dance.)

    I also experimented with the angle of the camera in addition to its height. I still have some balls left in my gift machine and don't want to test out the PS4 camera with 2020 until I finish emptying the gift machine on Xbox (since cross-platform usage causes problems with rewards). If I get a chance to test it out and recall how I got the full body to show, I'll post again.

    There is something going on in Skibidi that many players don't notice or which players may notice but not realize can factor into the scoring. I don't want to reveal the "secrets" of the 2020 dances since this is the current year, but the camera setup isn't the only thing impacting the score.

    Good luck.
    Share this post

  6. #6
    When I go to Settings, Devices, and find the PS4 Camera, the setup here appears to want me to sit down. Of course, these settings don't realize that I plan to dance.

    I remember experimenting with this and not giving up until I fit on the screen during the dance (and before it starts). Before I went into these settings, I had my camera height and angle adjusted so that my entire body would show on the screen during the dance and at the beginning, from raised hands to toes, even if I walk a step or two towards the t.v. during the dance and raise my arms up high. One time in these settings, I remember bending my knees to get my head into the indicated positions. I don't recall though if this is what I had done when I felt like my setup was optimized, but it seems like it was.

    Good luck.
    Share this post

  7. #7
    It is hopeless. You will get better to a certain point but will never be able to compete with xbox/kinect.
    Weekly tournaments top 10 are all xbox which proves this game is unfairly biased towards using kinect.
    Share this post