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  1. #1

    Being able to hold revenge is stupid

    Without a doubt, being able to hold revenge indefinitely is the most cancerous game design choice I have ever experienced. I cannot fathom who sat down and thought that having a turtle tool that often results in a 50% HP punish was a good idea. The turtle meta is already unfun, add people holding revenge and no one doing anything because why get parried and get killed?

    But no, the other person can still hold revenge, even if no attacks are held. It doesn’t vanish, it stays there as long as you’re locked on. Why? Give it 10 seconds with no attack and it should vanish or you should have to attack to keep it there. Why can you get it, hold it for a minute, and then use it? Absolutely detrimental to the game. This turtle meta is infuriating.

    Legit got into a duel and my enemy didn’t initiate an attack once, just parried and punished my aggression. Normally, I would applaud the skill, but that’s how you win now, sit, stare, wait for a parry. Heavies excel because they can make mistakes, assassins get stomped due to low health pool and very little turtle ability.

    Straight up malding.
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  2. #2
    Yeah, I am an advocate of a 'Use By' timer. I like the idea of revenge being an explosive power that comes from being being beat on as if it was your heroes last hurah of adrenaline. I think revenge is just a weird mechanic. It would be interesting to see revenge in a TG that auto activates just because you'd be unable to use it offensively and the gankers would be unable to react to the activation until its already activated. it could be more of an defensive tool to run away and waste time.
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  3. #3
    I'm pretty sure there used to be a timer that you had to use the revenge by before it went away and you'd have to build it up again. Not sure when or why this was changed. Seems like a bad move to me.

    Automatic activation is a thing that has been thrown around a few times since release and it has just never caught on with the big crowd. Personally I'm against it for the same reason I was against Valk's and Cent's cutscene when they were new as well as old Conq's and current HL's bash-heavy 100-0 combo.
    In a game where the players are meant to be and feel like the big heroes in a medieval conflict, anything that takes agency away from the players (and heroes) and becomes either scripted or random goes directly against the whole vision of the game.
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  4. #4
    My ideal revenge would be one that I can hold but pops auto if I'm at 5 hitpoints. I'd also like the pop revenge to pause when enemies run and reactivate when they are in a range.
    Revenge needs a buff not a nerf. It's to easy to defend against revenge or run away or hit stun a max punish. And the overthrow a gb to a whiffed Max punish is annoying as well as hitting walls while your backed into a corner by a gank and unable to use your one sided zone.
    If they were to delete revenge and make up and damage increase by 25% pre player lock-on I would accept that and would diminish OOL tech. Meaning if you had 100hp base against 2 people you would gain 25 points of health. 3, 150, 4, 200. So against 4 players youd have 200 HP and 30 heavy would do 60 damage. If the 4 had 100 base HP their total HP would be 400 so it would equate to a 2v4.
    This would auto tune based on group fights with locks so OOL teching might cause a teammate to receive more damage from an attack from his opponent.
    So in a 4v4 fight each Max health from target swapping would be 200 with 100 base.
    This sounds bad and the initial fight might run long but remember that no one could get revenge.
    This would also mean that enemies that check your health to see if that want to enter the fight to gank will auto give 25 points of health...this would benefit partied fight communication as you could warn off a teammate from entering a fight your winning.
    A player could run around collecting HP by lockons like a shinobi could but this seems like a waste of time and dependent on the enemy team not knowing your strategy.
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  5. #5
    Smh this thread is a big yikes.

    Or.. or... Hear me out, learn how to gank. Phew problem solved, life is crazy.

    Don't get me wrong, there are some inconsistencies with revenge, mostly related to like hitstun and activation. Regardless, revenge is so effing weak. And adding a "use by timer" ? Why??? So when you see their revenge pop up you run or back away, because you and your team fail to gank?

    It is literally ultimately you/and or your teams fault for feeding someone revenge and on top of that letting them capitalize on it.

    Don't give me the whole "if you are doing anything other than 1v1ing you should die because 1v2 it's realistic that you would lose a 1v2 blah blah realism" I don't care. It's a game, and not a simulation game lol nowhere near.

    Revenge is designed to put thought into gankers, ganks, so the whole game isn't a cess pool of death balling.

    If you think turtle meta is bad, you'd be back on the forums for deathball meta in an instant.

    #buffRevenge
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  6. #6
    Originally Posted by iadvisoryi Go to original post
    Smh this thread is a big yikes.

    Or.. or... Hear me out, learn how to gank. Phew problem solved, life is crazy.

    Don't get me wrong, there are some inconsistencies with revenge, mostly related to like hitstun and activation. Regardless, revenge is so effing weak. And adding a "use by timer" ? Why??? So when you see their revenge pop up you run or back away, because you and your team fail to gank?

    It is literally ultimately you/and or your teams fault for feeding someone revenge and on top of that letting them capitalize on it.

    Don't give me the whole "if you are doing anything other than 1v1ing you should die because 1v2 it's realistic that you would lose a 1v2 blah blah realism" I don't care. It's a game, and not a simulation game lol nowhere near.

    Revenge is designed to put thought into gankers, ganks, so the whole game isn't a cess pool of death balling.

    If you think turtle meta is bad, you'd be back on the forums for deathball meta in an instant.

    #buffRevenge
    I am very certain you cannot dismiss this thread with *git gud" because it has nothing to do with skill. This is a discussion about how powerful revenge is. I don't really care to hear the argument "learn how to gank" when 90% of players play in random matches with 0 communication, revenge is also inconsistent and biased towards team comps and specific heroes . You also imply as if you are the only person on this thread who knows how to gank and anyone who disagrees with you must not know how to gank. This certainly cannot be logical.

    Ironically, the type of people who hold revenge as an insurance policy are the same people who turtle super hard and would therefore not be a victim of death-balling. The real solution to not getting death's balls to the face lies with in the anti-damage stack mechanic. Revenge just needs to be this little chill thing that gives you a small edge in a 1v2 or the ability to easily run away from a 1v4. It should not be a tool of mass destruction that can delay an entire team for an extra 10-20 seconds or even kill them completely.
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  7. #7
    I don't think you guys advocating a 'use by' understand that you are replacing 1 turtle who worked for revenge with multiple turtles running away to waste said revenge. This would just make ganking even more attacker sided.

    Not only is it not that difficult to bait out the revenge but why should the defender be punished for holding out against the gank?
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Chump94 Go to original post
    I don't think you guys advocating a 'use by' understand that you are replacing 1 turtle who worked for revenge with multiple turtles running away to waste said revenge. This would just make ganking even more attacker sided.

    Not only is it not that difficult to bait out the revenge but why should the defender be punished for holding out against the gank?
    Ganking should be extremely attacker sided, honestly you should just die for getting caught in a 1v4. You're talk about rewarding people for getting a buff that is given out like candy under the right circumstances.It is literally a participation medal. The next season is likely the one that is going to massively reduce damage so ganks won't be nearly as dangerous to be in anymore. If revenge is left alone as is, it will be even stronger.
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  9. #9
    Originally Posted by CanadianSoupMan Go to original post
    Ganking should be extremely attacker sided, honestly you should just die for getting caught in a 1v4. You're talk about rewarding people for getting a buff that is given out like candy under the right circumstances.It is literally a participation medal. The next season is likely the one that is going to massively reduce damage so ganks won't be nearly as dangerous to be in anymore. If revenge is left alone as is, it will be even stronger.
    This is case and point of what I just said. It's a buff given out like candy when people are kill hungry. And you literally just explained a death ball meta and called it ok. Tell me how it would be fun on Dom, let's say you're blue team, if orange rolled your team, got all 3 obj's, anytime you go by yourself you get ganked by multiple people, even if you wait for your whole team to spawn and you 4v4, the better team comp will have the higher chance at winning. Revenge makes it so it requires some thought on how and when to attack, not just throwing random ish and hoping it lands.

    Half the argument is 100% skill based. You don't need communication to gank effectively. If I'm a pk, fighting let's say a warden, and my team mate gladiator shows up, if the warden is staying locked to me, I can mix, if the gladiator is competent, he can use the toe stab, and faints (not actually doing dmg with basic attacks), switching the defenders guard and allowing me to hit more attacks, they're dead without revenge.

    Now if my teammate ganks and they're a conq, I'm just backing up and letting conq control the fight because if I'm attacking while conq is bashing, they're gonna get revenge.

    Smart players will hold revenge if they're above 25 hp. I can be a pk, or a shaman, and hold it. It has nothing to do with a turtle character and if your saying the player is turtling, against multiple people, why TF wouldn't I lol. Makes no sense.
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by CanadianSoupMan Go to original post
    I am very certain you cannot dismiss this thread with *git gud" because it has nothing to do with skill. This is a discussion about how powerful revenge is. I don't really care to hear the argument "learn how to gank" when 90% of players play in random matches with 0 communication, revenge is also inconsistent and biased towards team comps and specific heroes . You also imply as if you are the only person on this thread who knows how to gank and anyone who disagrees with you must not know how to gank. This certainly cannot be logical.

    Ironically, the type of people who hold revenge as an insurance policy are the same people who turtle super hard and would therefore not be a victim of death-balling. The real solution to not getting death's balls to the face lies with in the anti-damage stack mechanic. Revenge just needs to be this little chill thing that gives you a small edge in a 1v2 or the ability to easily run away from a 1v4. It should not be a tool of mass destruction that can delay an entire team for an extra 10-20 seconds or even kill them completely.
    Randoms will be randoms sure, but you can't use that to dismiss effective ganking in pub games entirely. You do not need to communicate to effectively gank. Only when you attempt to setup an elaborate/multi step gank. Simply doing something like GBing at the right time to let kense's UB heavy land is an effective gank that requires zero communication. (as an example.) Also it's funny that you'd mention holding revenge as delaying a whole team. That never happens.
    If it's a 1v4 and the guy gets revenge he's not making it out of that fight unless the players are exceptionally bad.


    The problem isn't that revenge can be held. It's the outlier situations people have a problem with. Like a 2v1 where the gank was improper, one of the gankers dies and now his ally is left with less than full health and the opponent has revenge. This is by far the most common complaint i've seen. And it's completely avoidable. But let's for the sake of argument we don't go the whole "get good" response.

    So what do you do when your ganking ally is dead/nearly dead and the person is holding revenge? Leave. One of you stays behind to prevent him from simply keeping the point (and for someone else on the team to potentially come in aka an effective rotation,) or you simply play your best to force their revenge pop. and then disengage with a double back dodge while locked on. And then kite them.
    Let's say for whatever reason you can't/won't leave and you're still there with a ganking ally. Bait the revenge pop. then both disengage and kite/defend.

    It is unsurprising that this is a problem for most. Because this involves having player agency and knowing how to space. Which the average player does not do. I'm sure there are more egregious situations where someone manage's to hold onto revenge for a minute via some weird methods. And that could potentially be looked at. But that doesn't change that there's nothing wrong with being able to hold revenge. Doesn't change that having the ability to decide when you can activate revenge adds another layer of depth to combat. And it doesn't change that most situations people complain about in regards to holding revenge can be easily prevented/midigated and handled overall well if people bothered to learn how to play the game better.

    Revenge is basically a shadow of it's former self. People seem to forget the days when you could get revenge without needing 2 people bullying you. When you could get revenge multiple times and it be more potent due to revenge gear and stackable buffs/debuffs. When revenge used to be able to floor people with a bash even if they weren't oos. etc. It's literally the easiest it's ever been to play around and handle revenge. It's frankly down right hilarious to me that someone could think revenge would be stronger on TG. Considering the vast majority of posts I saw regarding revenge during TG was that they weren't getting it enough. That they were being blendered before they even got revenge.
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