Junior Member
Irrelevant. The GameGuru’s statement made it seem as if understanding of what happened to the Vikings was somehow required, and going along with the narrative of their reputation being sullied by Christian domination, which is irrelevant to people wanting to play this game.Originally Posted by Tundra 793 Go to original post
Are they still around? No. They were either wiped out or mingled. That’s what happens to any culture, indeed any species, that no longer exists. Even if the actual people themselves survived and their descendants are alive right now, their culture, their way of life, ended. Either someone stopped them from having it anymore, or they mixed in with another culture until it was entirely subsumed. That’s how it goes.Originally Posted by Tundra 793 Go to original post
Senior Member
His statement was directed specifically at VestigialLama, and his comments probably regarded other discussions those two have had. I didn’t get “required” from his post at all.Originally Posted by Teen_Tyrant Go to original post
Yes, historical understanding isn’t required, but if people want to talk about history, why shouldn’t they be allowed to? No one’s forcing you to either read, or engage with them. You clearly don’t want to either, so why bother engaging when you find it all irrelevant?
Yes, their culture largely ended, but not by mingling or getting wiped out. Those statements are false. Most of Scandinavia are descendants of their original Viking populations, genetically speaking. The pagan culture died out, but there’s still plenty of pagan traditions alive across Scandinavia and the Nordic countries, originating from the Viking religions and folklore.Are they still around? No. They were either wiped out or mingled. That’s what happens to any culture, indeed any species, that no longer exists. Even if the actual people themselves survived and their descendants are alive right now, their culture, their way of life, ended. Either someone stopped them from having it anymore, or they mixed in with another culture until it was entirely subsumed. That’s how it goes.
Stating that they were wiped out or intermingled is not accurate, but when you obviously don’t care about history, what do you gain from engaging in these discussions? You’re not discussing anything, you’re just pointing out absolutes that seem true and relevant to you, but within a historical discussion, are wrong.
Member
Slight correction:Originally Posted by Tundra 793 Go to original post
While Norsemen didn't fight any crusade like wars again Christianity (at least none I've ever heard of), and the shift in religion was largely a political move for kings and chieftains to gain and legitimize power, coercion and force was used to achieve it. Refusing to convert could mean torture, losing all their property, and death.
Basically it started at the top and the general case was "Covert or else" for everyone else.
Senior Member
Alright that’s a fair and more nuanced approach I can get behind.Originally Posted by Greybush1982 Go to original post
Though I’m not sure how much force and coercion played into it. The Christianisation of Scandinavia started out voluntarily, and peacefully at first. Viking activities and religion even survived into the 1100s, possibly the early 1200s as well. There seems to have existed a strange level of tolerance for both religions during the transition period.
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Tundra 793 Go to original post
Of course it doesn't match! Cause it was written by christians.
Very sad that the real viking can't use time machine, come up and "politely" explain what was going on.
Understanding the situation is the key to any immersion.
Moreover it was long time war. About 3 centuries long. Generations by generations have replaced one another.
Idea itself that Vikings were attacking everyone and it was only economic motivation is harmful for the game, in general.
From this theory follows - vikings were just ordinary robbers and murderers. Just bandits.
Situation was much more complicated and simple at the same time.
Even vikings victimes didn't understand what was going on....Why, all of a sudden, it has happened? What's going on?
Why was that wrath and hatred no one could understand.....Robbers don't behave like this.
Why did that happen now?
Vikings were sleeping and decided one beautiful day - "Let's robe britains?". With such a hatred to their holy places....Doubtful.
What do you think???
Senior Member
We’ll absolutely never discover the real reason behind the first raid in 793, but there’s not much evidence of it being caused by religious conflict. Monasteries and churches in England at the time were quite simply places of great wealth, and little to no defensive capabilities.Vikings were sleeping and decided one beautiful day - "Let's robe britains?". With such a hatred to their holy places....Doubtful.
What do you think???
If you were a Viking seeking wealth, and someone told you about monasteries, wouldn’t that be reason enough? Easy money, little risk.
If you’re using Alcuin’s account of the Lindisfarne raid as proof, keep in mind, as you yourself point out; These are Christian accounts of foreign attacks. Naturally they’re going to paint the raids in the most horrible light possible.
If the Vikings were engaging in a religious war, why didn’t they focus on holy relics, monks and priests and the monasteries themselves? The raids focused on acquiring wealth.
Do note that during the time of the Danelaw, Danes, Norse and English people all lived side by side, and intermarried as well. Once the Danes conquered territories, they didn’t massacre Christians still living there.
Viking expansion being driven by religious motivations is one theory out of many, but I do not it is the most likely one.
Member
Yes we can!
Cruelty does not change with gender or aborigine.
I think history is indeed a perception, written down or told. Have you ever read about the caring SS SchaFü? You probably didn't.
Your responsible. If you may find yourself questioning, you may find yourself in a shotgun shack.
You may ask yourself where did I get here?
You may find yourself in another part of the world!
And you may ask yourself how did I get here?
Same as it ever was.
Member
Not sure how well google can translate this (if you can't read Norwegian, that is), but this article explains how it happened: https://www.norgeshistorie.no/viking...-kristnet.htmlOriginally Posted by Tundra 793 Go to original post
TL;DR
Basically the 3 kings mentioned at the start adopted Christianity because it legitimized their power as kings, and made everyone else their subjects, since kings were generally considered the leaders of the church at the time. So they could use this new religion to undermine chieftains that resisted their rule, and consolidate their political and military strength through faith instead of just force.
And since Norse religion generally doesn't have a problem with what others believe, spreading a new belief system didn't have the same effect as it's had in regions with religions that condemn other faiths. Additionally, the transition was made somewhat easier with compromises. People were allowed to keep some rituals, symbols were merged, and so on. Christmas, for example, is still called Yule in Scandinavia, because rather than banning the celebration the church just said "This is about the birth of Jesus now!", and people were fine with it because they still got to celebrate.
So Christianity spread from the top down, meaning anyone who resisted would be opposing their kings, lords, and chieftains. Those who fell in line got political and trade advantages (as Christians, a lot more trade in Europe was available). Those who resisted or refused were punished.
TLTL;DR
The transition was relatively peaceful because it offered advantages, didn't disrupt daily life much, and it was a slow process with many compromises.
Member
Excuse me I got one more!
Senior Member
The fact is that in terms of what we identify as religious violence, the Vikings are not proportionate to Christian rulers.
There's not much evidence that Vikings forced Christians to accept Odin and Thor, and if they refused murdered them en masse. That was what Charlemagne did to Saxon pagans at Verden. The Vikings never ordered religious armed pilgrimages all for the sake of conversion, like the Baltic Crusades ordered by the Popes centuries later whose main purpose was to stamp out Slavic Pagan beliefs (and which they did so successfully that we don't even have any stories and myths from the Slavic religion...and if not for the Icelanders, we probably would not have had what we do for Norse Myth, which is admittedly less than what we have for the Greek and Roman myths, or for that matter the stil alive and thriving Hindu Pantheon). The Christianization of pagan lands was definitely a process that was driven by violence at various points, and fundamentally coercive. And it's not the case that the Pagans didn't shown any signs of resistance. The people of Pilenai, chose suicide rather than submit to the Teutonic Knights and convert, they were martyrs to their non-Christian faith. There were also Jomsvikings, a Norse-centric religious order of Proto-Knights.
But we need to separate all of that from the Vikings themselves. The Vikings who settled and scattered across Europe did have religious beliefs but there's no evidence that was driven by religion in particular. A lot of people say that the raid on Lindisfarne and other monasteries was in revenge for Charlemagne's campaign against the Saxons and burning their sacred trees...but that doesn't make sense because that happened in Saxony which is a fair bit away from the Scandinavian lands. Secondly, it makes no sense why the Vikings would attack Lindisfarne who did nothing to them and anyone. It would make sense if they attacked Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire. We also need to understand that people back then didn't have communication or knowledge we do. We can't assume that the Vikings who attacked Lindisfarne understood the organization of the Church, their communication networks and letter system, or that attacking a monastery was attacking a Church that was based in Rome. They wouldn't have that knowledge and understanding. Even lay Christians didn't have that knowledge until centuries later.
I think the reason people focus so much on religion is because the main sources we have of Viking culture are the Eddas and that draws so much attention that people tend to assume and presume a religious clash and fit that square peg in a round hole.
