Does conq suck? | Forums

[ArchDukeInstinct]

& arch, those descriptions work for SOME characters...

What descriptions are you referring to? "Hard hitter" and "Strong Defense"? Every character in the game has strong defense against characters with zero offense.

conq can light on whiff like nubu (and thats a bread butter mixup)

I guess you mean shield bash whiff? I don't know, you make zero attempt to clarify anything. For regular dash into shield bash, that's a debunked myth from 2018. Shield bash mixup on the other hand has early branching to allow that yes, but it's a 700ms bash, so who cares? Maybe that's a bread and butter mixup for your level 17 Conq, but I'm a level 70 Conq and shield bash mixup flat out doesn't cut it.

[King_of_Xibalba]

So ArchdukeInstinct it seems you know very well your stuff, so what is your veredict? Is he underpowered? Or he plainly sucks? Is he in need of a rework? What are your sugestions in the case of a rework? Or sugestions in general? I'm only rep 1 with him but I understood your critique to the freeze video, I don't know if is worth to play him again or not. Last time I did was really bad(for my standard anyway) . That was nearly two months ago.

[Sweaty_Sock]

What descriptions are you referring to? "Hard hitter" and "Strong Defense"? Every character in the game has strong defense against characters with zero offense.

Should probably have clarified, the descriptions of the counter play you put forwards, which seems to involve basically turtling against conq to punish a move he makes

I guess you mean shield bash whiff? I don't know, you make zero attempt to clarify anything. For regular dash into shield bash, that's a debunked myth from 2018. Shield bash mixup on the other hand has early branching to allow that yes, but it's a 700ms bash, so who cares? Maybe that's a bread and butter mixup for your level 17 Conq, but I'm a level 70 Conq and shield bash mixup flat out doesn't cut it.

There is nothing to stop a conq throwing a light after a missed bash to collect someone going for a gb, and like nobu the threat of this is often enough to stop punish attempts as people wait for a potential light parry - Certain characters can dodge better than others and recover faster, so again in some matchups you are really pushing uphill trying to really punish a conq meaningfully

The bottom line is conq has too many defensive options (or rather those same few defensive moves defeat far to many champs movesets). The dodge carries a superior block, and a GB defeating bash that many champs struggle with. He also has an all guard that guarantees 30 damage. I also have no idea why he has an 18 damage infinate light chain... For me however its the zone that is the broken part of the kit (why does it have both all guard and cant be GB). The 600 ms means i cant feint back into parry on it so its pretty much eat the light, and dont go near the conq unless you have an UB from neutral.

I do agree the defence boils down to the same few moves, but boy are those moves used and abused - personally i would like to see his zone force him more along the lines of beserker - give it a '1 hit second guaranteed' system but also force two swings on the move to allow a bait/punish properly and make it a move to really think about throwing. The other all guard itself needs to be like aramush where it times itself out giving a margin for error.

Edit the champs too safe, too safe by half, needs some margins for error put into the kit. If he had to do 10 different counters instead of 4 for example, then the options for misreads and outplays get back into the game.


Edit: i parked conq at rep 17 when he was reworked because to my mind he was too powerful (and terrible), still is. I play cent now hes bad, pk post nerf, pretty much them all. But conq still is a no-go sadly. Too powerful if you stick to the same, repetitive boring responses, and nonviable if you don't.

[ArchDukeInstinct]

So ArchdukeInstinct it seems you know very well your stuff, so what is your veredict? Is he underpowered? Or he plainly sucks? Is he in need of a rework?

Yes he's underpowered, he's not at the bottom because he still has at least mediocre offense with shield bash/GB mixup which is more than a lot of classes can say, but as far as defense goes, where his real power was after the original rework, he's finished.

What are your sugestions in the case of a rework?

He does need a rework, hopefully one that revolves around making charged heavy worth using, but I very much doubt one will actually happen given the state of this game and how many other characters are in desperate need of a rework already.

Or sugestions in general? I'm only rep 1 with him but I understood your critique to the freeze video, I don't know if is worth to play him again or not. Last time I did was really bad(for my standard anyway) . That was nearly two months ago.

I would say that it's not worth playing him at this point. Play Black Prior instead, you'll have a much better time. You will have an objectively better bash, objectively better full block, way better damage, overall offense that is light years ahead, and arguably better defense, his defense is no less safe than Conquerors but you'll be doing a lot more damage.

The only thing people can pretend is in favor of Conqueror is the "number of option selects", but like I explained the number of option selects are irrelevant when the way to counter all of them boils down to 2 reads.

Should probably have clarified, the descriptions of the counter play you put forwards, which seems to involve basically turtling against conq to punish a move he makes

It isn't turtling, it's simply feinting your own attack to neutral to punish a wide range of potential option selects that Conqueror commits to such as the zone parry.

There is nothing to stop a conq throwing a light after a missed bash to collect someone going for a gb, and like nobu the threat of this is often enough to stop punish attempts as people wait for a potential light parry - Certain characters can dodge better than others and recover faster, so again in some matchups you are really pushing uphill trying to really punish a conq meaningfully

Yes there is. There's a 700ms miss recovery time with no early branching options. I think another thing you are not realizing is that all light attacks have a 100ms GB vulnerability. If that wasn't the case, you could beat a GB on reaction at any time in any situation with a light attack from neutral. By doing a light attack after missing a shield bash, you are only adding to the time that you have GB vulnerability that fact alone is why this myth is busted. Unless there is an early branching option to attack during the recovery (not the case for regular dash/shield bash), attacking does not help you beat a GB.

Every single side dodge and back dodge recovery in the game was standardized a long time ago. The only exception I know of is Highlander's offensive stance.

Lets run through the math. A Conqueror decides to do a buffered shield bash, which is the earliest shield bash timing at 100ms. From the beginning of the dodge that's 100ms, then you have the shield bash itself which takes 500ms, then you have the miss recovery of 700ms, and then you have 100ms of GB vulnerability on all light attacks. From start to finish, that's 1400ms.

The opponent side dodges immediately upon seeing the forward dodge from Conqueror and GBs. Side dodge will have a recovery of 600ms and a guard break takes 400ms to land. That's 1000ms. So there's 400ms after seeing Conqueror do a forward dodge for the opponent to react and get a side dodge into GB before the light attack can beat it. Average reaction time is 250ms.

The bottom line is conq has too many defensive options (or rather those same few defensive moves defeat far to many champs movesets). The dodge carries a superior block, and a GB defeating bash that many champs struggle with.

Again I already provided the solution to easily and safely counter side dodge shield bashes that works for all characters. If you see a side dodge from Conq, you dodge backwards. If Conqueror commits to a shield bash, then he will whiff in front of you for an easy GB punish because the distance created by the two players dodging in different directions will be too large. If he doesn't do a shield bash, then he will be too far away to get a GB on you.

He also has an all guard that guarantees 30 damage.

Countered by any bash or unblockable. Countered by GBing.

I also have no idea why he has an 18 damage infinate light chain...

Every single year 3 heavy's combo lights do 18 damage aside from Prior who does 17 damage. 18 damage for a combo light isn't crazy at all. You must have an issue with lights in general because Conqueror's infinite light chain attacks are still the standard 500ms light attack speed.

For me however its the zone that is the broken part of the kit (why does it have both all guard and cant be GB). The 600 ms means i cant feint back into parry on it so its pretty much eat the light, and dont go near the conq unless you have an UB from neutral.

Sorry but this is either a problem with you or a problem with your setup. Are you unable to parry a Centurion's heavy after you feint as well? That's 600ms too.

What about superior block light or crushing counter attacks from Valkyrie, Warlord, Prior, Warden, Highlander, and so on? Are you completely helpless against those as well? They tend to be 500ms. It's just bizarre to me that you're having such a problem.

I do agree the defence boils down to the same few moves, but boy are those moves used and abused - personally i would like to see his zone force him more along the lines of beserker - give it a '1 hit second guaranteed' system but also force two swings on the move to allow a bait/punish properly and make it a move to really think about throwing. The other all guard itself needs to be like aramush where it times itself out giving a margin for error.

Edit the champs too safe, too safe by half, needs some margins for error put into the kit. If he had to do 10 different counters instead of 4 for example, then the options for misreads and outplays get back into the game.

But you can't even feint and parry the zone in time, even though that is very much possible and isn't hard at all. If you can't even punish the zone attack, of course it seems Conqueror's defense is insurmountable.

[King_of_Xibalba]

OK, many thanks for your very complete input, ArchdukeInstinct.

[Sweaty_Sock]

The only thing people can pretend is in favor of Conqueror is the "number of option selects", but like I explained the number of option selects are irrelevant when the way to counter all of them boils down to 2 reads.

If you have the kit on your champ to do an neutral UB. If you dont then the conq can simply spam the same moves over, and over.

It isn't turtling, it's simply feinting your own attack to neutral to punish a wide range of potential option selects that Conqueror commits to such as the zone parry.

Not attacking and simply trying to bait responses? Thats just advanced turtle. If you do that, and the conq doesn't commit, its just two people staring at each other

Yes there is. There's a 700ms miss recovery time with no early branching options. I think another thing you are not realizing is that all light attacks have a 100ms GB vulnerability. If that wasn't the case, you could beat a GB on reaction at any time in any situation with a light attack from neutral. By doing a light attack after missing a shield bash, you are only adding to the time that you have GB vulnerability that fact alone is why this myth is busted. Unless there is an early branching option to attack during the recovery (not the case for regular dash/shield bash), attacking does not help you beat a GB.

In order to max those windows you have to dodge on conq dodge, leaving you open to conq just delaying bash into a gb. Try buffering the light a few times before going all excel spreadsheet figures win games'

Every single side dodge and back dodge recovery in the game was standardized a long time ago. The only exception I know of is Highlander's offensive stance.

that would explain why a WL can misread and dodge early on a shugo hug, recover and dodge again. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Lets run through the math. A Conqueror decides to do a buffered shield bash, which is the earliest shield bash timing at 100ms. From the beginning of the dodge that's 100ms, then you have the shield bash itself which takes 500ms, then you have the miss recovery of 700ms, and then you have 100ms of GB vulnerability on all light attacks. From start to finish, that's 1400ms.

The opponent side dodges immediately upon seeing the forward dodge from Conqueror and GBs. Side dodge will have a recovery of 600ms and a guard break takes 400ms to land. That's 1000ms. So there's 400ms after seeing Conqueror do a forward dodge for the opponent to react and get a side dodge into GB before the light attack can beat it. Average reaction time is 250ms.

as above. if you early dodge to max the windows you open up for a gb from the conq themselves.

Again I already provided the solution to easily and safely counter side dodge shield bashes that works for all characters. If you see a side dodge from Conq, you dodge backwards. If Conqueror commits to a shield bash, then he will whiff in front of you for an easy GB punish because the distance created by the two players dodging in different directions will be too large. If he doesn't do a shield bash, then he will be too far away to get a GB on you.

first you have to bait the conq to actually do a side bash thats not on reaction to your own actions and cannot be stopped. Some conqs will refuse to do this. Again try buffering a light now and again as conq. Maths cant parry, humans do, who make mistakes and misreads.

Countered by any bash or unblockable. Countered by GBing.

i'll just go strap a bash on PK, an UB on orochi and remove the charge time on a shugo charged heavy... if you no got the tools and the conq exploits this its a very, very sad matchup.

Every single year 3 heavy's combo lights do 18 damage aside from Prior who does 17 damage. 18 damage for a combo light isn't crazy at all. You must have an issue with lights in general because Conqueror's infinite light chain attacks are still the standard 500ms light attack speed.

what? infinate chain 18 damage light attacks? no one, not even the assassins get that. Its INFINITE..

Sorry but this is either a problem with you or a problem with your setup. Are you unable to parry a Centurion's heavy after you feint as well? That's 600ms too.

Thats a false comparison, in order to parry you delay the input to a parry timing, on a conq zone allguard you go on animation startup. This is a stupid comparison, a cent doesnt just start hitting heavy cos you moved

What about superior block light or crushing counter attacks from Valkyrie, Warlord, Prior, Warden, Highlander, and so on? Are you completely helpless against those as well? They tend to be 500ms. It's just bizarre to me that you're having such a problem.

again this is a stupid comparison, crushing counters have a finite window to trigger, which involved delaying. You can also let a heavy fly to counter those over using the crushing lights and it can potentially connect. Any attack not unblockable will fail on conq zone, hence the request that it has a chance to fail, even if the conq misreads your heavy as a light you will fail and get hit, So the conqs mistake gets them a win out of the trade...

But you can't even feint and parry the zone in time, even though that is very much possible and isn't hard at all. If you can't even punish the zone attack, of course it seems Conqueror's defense is insurmountable.

Again, its done instantly on animation to certain champs the conq knows cant do anything about it. Again, and again, and again.

I dont have a main, i play them all with an open mind, and objectively without a neutral UB you are stuffed against a half competent conq who is just going to do the same attacks they know your champ has issues with again, and again, and again.

I think your issue is you are thinking only of the champs that can deal with conq, and not the roster as a whole. Some champs eat him, others find it a very, very, very hard matchup which requires a large skill gap to overcome if the conq just sticks to their same option selects, using those your character cannot deal with.

[Knight_Raime]

@ArchDukeInstinct

responding like this to not make a giant wall in response. I am going to have to disagree about your claim of the video being a gish gallop. I do not believe Freeze was using the video as counter evidence to people saying conq's defense was significantly nerfed. He openly acknowledges the changes to vulnerability and charge based attacks significantly impacted conq's defense. And I think the little bit at the end was merely Freeze's opinion on him still having a more than servicable defense. Not him trying to sell anyone on anything. I do overall agree that Black Prior now currently has the best general defense in the game over Conq. But I do think the fact that Conq has more defensive options compared to most heros is a significant thing to note and an advantage to some degree. How much of an advantage is clearly up for debate.


As far as your simplifications go it's quite nice to do that. As some people could get easily confused since a lot of the OS's mentioned are heavily based on timings. Which is a variable most players do not have to consider or think about on that sort of level. However, I don't think Freeze is inflating his points to fluff up Conq. Freeze for the most part is an informational channel that goes very heavy into numbers and specifics. It makes complete sense for him to be this detailed about Conq's OS's. As for posting counters to said OS's again, this is helpful. But the tone i'm getting from you is that you're not using them as a simple informative response but rather something to try and disprove Freeze's claims of these OS's existing. In regards to your claim about beating the latter half of the OS's mentioned with feint into GB I'm a bit confused with. Maybe you can clarify for me.

At the current state of the game in order to properly feint into GB to catch someone it's my understanding it has to be buffered. As in you cannot try to react to a conq's OS by feinting and waiting for his dodge, soft feint into bash, soft feint into FB, etc. So if my understanding is correct I don't understand how you can tote "feint into GB beats all of this" when conq can simply be doing an OS on either light or heavy timing. I want to be clear, I'm not saying feint into GB cannot beat these. I am just confused on how you can say they basically don't exist when you're having to make a read on which OS he's going to be doing specifically because he does different OS's on either light or heavy timing.

And then if you'd be so kind I have another question. I know Conq can go from full block to zone. And IIRC Conq can top light out of FB. If I do the instant FB OS where you heavy/charge heavy and then press FB basically right after either action can't I simply zone or light to stuff your feint into GB attempt if you feinted into GB on indicator? In regards to your specific complaints about the video:

I cannot speak for Freeze, But I think the reason he's touting any OS's in the video as unique to conq is because Conq has multiple aspects to said OS's that not all other heros have. (though i'm not sure where you're getting freeze calling them unique from the video in the first place.) Like yeah conq isn't the only one who can dodge to deal with OS's. But he's the only hero who has a side dodge that links into a bash that also happens to have superior block through the entirety of the dodge. And yeah, conq isn't the only one with charge based parries or FB to deal with soft feints. But he's the only hero that has both whilst also having superior block on said heavies. Essentially the pieces themselves are not wholistically unique. But the fact that he's got all of them together is what makes his defense "unique." IMO anyway.

Are you 100% sure dodging on heavy timing avoids both Shaman's soft feint into light from her sides AND top? It was my understanding that part of or most of the reason why you can dodge to avoid both valk's and pk's soft feints on heavy timing is because of their fixed timings on their soft feints. Where as Shaman's light soft feints are different timings. Top SF being 400ms and sides being 466ms. In regards to Nuxia's being put in there I can only mention what i've said before. Freeze is an informational channel for the most part. The goal of the video is to attempt to list all of the OS's Conq has purely for the record. While it's indeed true that you can simply light on reaction to a trap at the moment This OS lets you potentially parry Nuxia or ignore her trap and still net a heavies worth of damage. And if you messed up a heavy parry isn't as punishing as being light parried. So sure, might not be something that you always go for. But it's nice to know your options.


While I certainly can't speak for your experiences I can tell you my own. I don't see anyone in the competitive area of the community trying to say Conq still has the strongest defense. I think the general sentiment has mostly been that Conq wasn't killed off via the changes and that he's still more than viable (currently an off meta pick for team comps.) I don't see any of them arguing that Conq shouldn't get any buffs either. Probably the people that would take this video from Freeze and use it against you or other Conq enthusiasts are people who would be largely ill informed about the game as a whole. These would be the same kinds of people that would religiously follow a tier list and using it to apply to their own gameplay or for an arguments sake without actually understanding the placements themselves and how they got there.

Thanks in advance for reading this and also entertaining my ignorance on some of the subject matter here. I appreciate it.

[gwenhobard]

Conqueror is not bad yet - see how many more people hang out here

[Arthodax]

Usually run into a conq every few games on ps4, most do well with all guard heavy counters and light spam with the odd bash here and there,

[ArchDukeInstinct]

If you have the kit on your champ to do an neutral UB. If you dont then the conq can simply spam the same moves over, and over.

No you can't. Zone attack takes a ton of stamina. Using it 2-3 times consecutively means you are out of stamina completely.

Not attacking and simply trying to bait responses? Thats just advanced turtle. If you do that, and the conq doesn't commit, its just two people staring at each other

Are you saying feinting is a defensive maneuver? Baiting a predictive response and punishing it is absolutely a form of offense.

In order to max those windows you have to dodge on conq dodge, leaving you open to conq just delaying bash into a gb. Try buffering the light a few times before going all excel spreadsheet figures win games

The dodge timing I described is only vulnerable to delayed bashes. You are safe from buffered bashes and GB attempts. Keep in mind that Conqueror's forward dodge has the same recovery time as a side dodge. 600ms. As long as you don't take 400ms to react to the forward dodge, you will be out of side dodge recovery in time.

You're risking taking 13 damage for a heavy's worth of damage if you punish the shield bash. If you want there to be zero risk, then what you're really saying is that you don't want shield bash to be a viable offense.

that would explain why a WL can misread and dodge early on a shugo hug, recover and dodge again. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Unless a patch bugged out and reverted Warlord's side dodge recoveries to his original on release values, I sincerely doubt that happened. That or you are leaving a lot out of the story.

first you have to bait the conq to actually do a side bash thats not on reaction to your own actions and cannot be stopped. Some conqs will refuse to do this. Again try buffering a light now and again as conq. Maths cant parry, humans do, who make mistakes and misreads.

But my whole point is that you don't need to bait out one specific option select.

i'll just go strap a bash on PK, an UB on orochi and remove the charge time on a shugo charged heavy... if you no got the tools and the conq exploits this its a very, very sad matchup.

"Conqueror should be nerfed because bottom tier characters exist"

what? infinate chain 18 damage light attacks? no one, not even the assassins get that. Its INFINITE

Sorry but you need to work on your setup or something. You should not be struggling to block 500ms attacks. If you're struggling to block 500ms lights, then option selects are the least of your concern. You're acting like 500ms light chains are the most dangerous thing in the game.

Thats a false comparison, in order to parry you delay the input to a parry timing, on a conq zone allguard you go on animation startup. This is a stupid comparison, a cent doesnt just start hitting heavy cos you moved

again this is a stupid comparison, crushing counters have a finite window to trigger, which involved delaying. You can also let a heavy fly to counter those over using the crushing lights and it can potentially connect. Any attack not unblockable will fail on conq zone, hence the request that it has a chance to fail, even if the conq misreads your heavy as a light you will fail and get hit, So the conqs mistake gets them a win out of the trade...

Again, its done instantly on animation to certain champs the conq knows cant do anything about it. Again, and again, and again.

No it's a completely legitimate comparison. Regardless of if you are mid feint or not you will see the zone attack 600ms before it hits and the feint windows on heavy attacks are at 400ms Your attack will be feinted and you will be ready to parry long before the zone hits. Conqueror would have to start his zone attack before you started a heavy attack for you to not be able to feign and parry it in time.

So even if the Conqueror starts the zone attack early, it is countered in the same exact way.

I dont have a main, i play them all with an open mind, and objectively without a neutral UB you are stuffed against a half competent conq who is just going to do the same attacks they know your champ has issues with again, and again, and again.

I think your issue is you are thinking only of the champs that can deal with conq, and not the roster as a whole. Some champs eat him, others find it a very, very, very hard matchup which requires a large skill gap to overcome if the conq just sticks to their same option selects, using those your character cannot deal with.

I am giving general purpose counters that every single class in the game can do. It is you cherry picking classes that have hardly any offense like PeaceKeeper and acting like it is a legitimate argument to gut Conqueror's defense even further.

I am going to have to disagree about your claim of the video being a gish gallop. I do not believe Freeze was using the video as counter evidence to people saying conq's defense was significantly nerfed. He openly acknowledges the changes to vulnerability and charge based attacks significantly impacted conq's defense. And I think the little bit at the end was merely Freeze's opinion on him still having a more than servicable defense. Not him trying to sell anyone on anything. I do overall agree that Black Prior now currently has the best general defense in the game over Conq. But I do think the fact that Conq has more defensive options compared to most heros is a significant thing to note and an advantage to some degree. How much of an advantage is clearly up for debate.

As far as your simplifications go it's quite nice to do that. As some people could get easily confused since a lot of the OS's mentioned are heavily based on timings. Which is a variable most players do not have to consider or think about on that sort of level. However, I don't think Freeze is inflating his points to fluff up Conq. Freeze for the most part is an informational channel that goes very heavy into numbers and specifics. It makes complete sense for him to be this detailed about Conq's OS's. As for posting counters to said OS's again, this is helpful. But the tone i'm getting from you is that you're not using them as a simple informative response but rather something to try and disprove Freeze's claims of these OS's existing.

If Freeze wants to document the option selects Conqueror has, then that is fair enough, but it is clear that he states at the end that Conqueror is only a "little less safe now" because of the recent nerfs at around 10:00. He directly ties Conqueror's defensive strength to the number of option selects near the beginning as well. So that's why I think it's fair to say the video is trying to push a specific point rather than being purely informational.

In regards to your claim about beating the latter half of the OS's mentioned with feint into GB I'm a bit confused with. Maybe you can clarify for me.

At the current state of the game in order to properly feint into GB to catch someone it's my understanding it has to be buffered. As in you cannot try to react to a conq's OS by feinting and waiting for his dodge, soft feint into bash, soft feint into FB, etc.

I'm saying whether you "feint into GB" or "feint into neutral" are the 2 reads you can choose to make and each will counter their own group of Conq's option selects. Not that you can GB on reaction.

Basically what I think people should do is to not worry about baiting a specific option select, I think they should choose to either feint into GB or feint into neutral. The 2nd read can then branch into various counters on reaction.

So if my understanding is correct I don't understand how you can tote "feint into GB beats all of this" when conq can simply be doing an OS on either light or heavy timing. I want to be clear, I'm not saying feint into GB cannot beat these. I am just confused on how you can say they basically don't exist when you're having to make a read on which OS he's going to be doing specifically because he does different OS's on either light or heavy timing.

I'm saying that feint into GB will beat the following:

• Charged Heavy Parry
• Full block
• Heavy into Full Block
• Heavy Superior Block on heavy timing
• Side Dodge with no shield bash

The other ones I put in the first list in the earlier post are not countered by GB.

And then if you'd be so kind I have another question. I know Conq can go from full block to zone. And IIRC Conq can top light out of FB. If I do the instant FB OS where you heavy/charge heavy and then press FB basically right after either action can't I simply zone or light to stuff your feint into GB attempt if you feinted into GB on indicator?

Conqueror would have to make a read that you are going to GB him and do the zone or light preemptively and for that reason they go into my first group of option selects, which is to feint into neutral and react accordingly.