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  1. #21
    @Lukettle

    There's quite a lot in your post that I could pick out as wrong or misunderstood. But we'd be here all day and frankly I don't want to create another giant wall as a response (hence the not quote.) So i'm only going to pick a handful of statements you make that I feel are important to tackle. But before I even hop into that it's important to understand that a "balanced" hero doesn't mean the hero is perfect. The concept trying to be conveyed is that the hero in question is largely what other heros should aim to be around either in certain capabilities or power level. Another easy example would be Shaman. She's considered on of the best if not the best designed hero in the game. But she still has some over tuned aspects and problems. But yeah, balanced and perfect are not mutually exclusive terms. Anyone attempting to argue from such a position is misguided.


    "But when you take all of the stuff and put in one single package, its extremly strong. When you compare him with the rest of the cast and their bland kits against him."

    I have a problem with this sentence for two reasons. For one this implies his kit is bloated. The only way you could argue this in terms of FH mechanics is via move properties (undodgable, soft feints, bashes, unblockables etc) and we could make that claim on a lot of other heros. BP's kit is very simple and there's not much to it. It's the way it works via kitflow that makes it seem like he's got a lot. Second, it is not Black prior's fault that other kit's are lacking. The goal of the hero reworks is to specifically bring them up in capability and power comparable to some of the better heros that got released later on. So, while BP can absolutely be adjusted I disagree with the idea of blaming BP for other kit's shortcomings like this statement seems to be doing.


    "ultra fast barely telegraphed dash bash that can also be still followed up with light even on miss, not to mention it deals few points more damage than other bashes?"

    Black prior's dash bash cannot chain off of whiff. Only his zone can. I'm going to assume you just miss typed here. So i'll touch on the other two parts. Telegraphing refers to how pronounced an animation is (in regards to games anyway.) Black prior's dash bash is actually the most pronounced bash attack in the game. You are very literally uppercutting someone with a man sized shield. Compared to someone like Warlord who's whole body barely moves when he does his headbutt. As far as the damage it gives on a confirmed hit it's pretty average compared to other punishes. The idea with his bash attack is it's meant to be used in tandum with the rest of his mix ups. Versus say Warlord where his bash is more meant to be used as an actual offense. I think it's more fair to blame the damage it gives on the current state of the game. By that I mean the game currently favors and demands high damage guaranteed punishes. Something that was largely fixed even with BP on TG.


    "An ultra fast mid combo follow up after light bash that cant be parried, blocked, deflected, counter crushed... Only dodged (mostly on prediction) and mostly not punished... and it gets guaranteed light, i dont ever see any priors throwing follow up light afterwards, because why would they, there is no point."

    BP's combo bash is meant to supplement his mix up of going for the undodgable heavy or fast flowing into his UB heavy slash. If you could react dodge to the bash it would defeat the purpose of it existing in his mix up in the first place. And you go for the other options for more damage. If you only go for light bash light not only do you feed more revenge for less damage but you're basically telling anyone with a decent dodge attack to punish you. Because at that point they're not having to predict. They just dodge attack on orange. As for why people play this way? Because people are bad. It doesn't matter how good or bad a kit is designed. If something is effective and relatively easy to do people will go for it. That's just how people are. There's room to argue about a problem existing if something is easy to use but also powerful. But i'd say that Bash only BP's are a low is level skill barrier. It's something that's easily overcome in higher skill brackets. Now if said tactic was just as effective at high skill brackets then we'd have a problem.


    "Why cant warlord do mid combo bash?"

    To answer this specific example, warlord basically can. The constant buffs he's gotten over the season's basically give him frame advantage on every move he does. This basically means wether he doesn't follow up with an attack after a light or heavy or he feints and then goes for a bash he's got the upper hand. This applies to his finishers as well. As for the broad question you're basically asking for all other heros to have good to great mid combo viability. I agree with this. And to the devs credit they are currently trying to improve chain based offense.


    "why do they need to be such MASSIVE swings?"

    This will be addressing this section. The only hitbox I'd argue is overkill are his lights. Him having massive AoE with his swings is not only good from a mechanical standpoint but also makes sense because of how wide he's actually swinging. The game has largely ignored weapon range and hitboxes for a lot of heros. This is why we get things like Nobushi's forward dodge light having frankly laughable range but someone like Kensei's zone sliding across the floor to catch someone. The devs need to overhaul every character's hitboxes and tracking to add some consistency to the game. Also again it's not BP's fault that other hero's have lacking kits. Comparing something decent to something that's so clearly poor by default is basically inflating your point. BP has an undodgable property on his finisher heavies because his kit does not have forward range. He's meant to be oppressive up close but not at a distance. If heros could simply reaction avoid his mix up he wouldn't be good at his job.


    "Now his glorious flip..."

    I will be brief here since this is something i've actively talked about more than once. The developers should have looked into and adjusted all other full block manuvers when he was released. We can very slightly tone down it's damage. We can remove it's ability to flip feats, plunge attacks, ladder stuns. But what it does mechanically is fine.


    "I would personally much rather see him knocked down just a notch."

    You're not taking him down a notch. You're out right gutting the character. I really don't even want to get into this section on the specifics because it frankly shows your inexperience, lack of game sense, and overall misunderstanding of fundamentals. Making him nearly as poor as most other characters until they buff most of the cast is misguided at best. I will not contend that he can/should be adjusted at some point. I will not contend that for an average player he can be frustrating to fight. However we do not make wide sweeping changes with slippery slope implications based purely off of one's feelings. There are other heros that VASTLY deserve attention sooner than BP. There are general game wide problems that by far and a way deserve attention sooner than BP. In the grand scheme of it all "removing" BP's frustration isn't going to impact the game at a noticable level for average play. There will simply be another hero to complain about. The only 2 heros in this game that can be nerfed currently that WOULD have wide sweeping effects on the game are LB and Shaman. Both are must picks in dominion. Where as BP is all but replaced by Warlord. And even in BP's prime he was never close to being a mandatory pick. He simply replaced Zerk.
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  2. #22
    King_of_Xibalba's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    @Lukettle

    There's quite a lot in your post that I could pick out as wrong or misunderstood. But we'd be here all day and frankly I don't want to create another giant wall as a response (hence the not quote.) So i'm only going to pick a handful of statements you make that I feel are important to tackle. But before I even hop into that it's important to understand that a "balanced" hero doesn't mean the hero is perfect. The concept trying to be conveyed is that the hero in question is largely what other heros should aim to be around either in certain capabilities or power level. Another easy example would be Shaman. She's considered on of the best if not the best designed hero in the game. But she still has some over tuned aspects and problems. But yeah, balanced and perfect are not mutually exclusive terms. Anyone attempting to argue from such a position is misguided.


    "But when you take all of the stuff and put in one single package, its extremly strong. When you compare him with the rest of the cast and their bland kits against him."

    I have a problem with this sentence for two reasons. For one this implies his kit is bloated. The only way you could argue this in terms of FH mechanics is via move properties (undodgable, soft feints, bashes, unblockables etc) and we could make that claim on a lot of other heros. BP's kit is very simple and there's not much to it. It's the way it works via kitflow that makes it seem like he's got a lot. Second, it is not Black prior's fault that other kit's are lacking. The goal of the hero reworks is to specifically bring them up in capability and power comparable to some of the better heros that got released later on. So, while BP can absolutely be adjusted I disagree with the idea of blaming BP for other kit's shortcomings like this statement seems to be doing.


    "ultra fast barely telegraphed dash bash that can also be still followed up with light even on miss, not to mention it deals few points more damage than other bashes?"

    Black prior's dash bash cannot chain off of whiff. Only his zone can. I'm going to assume you just miss typed here. So i'll touch on the other two parts. Telegraphing refers to how pronounced an animation is (in regards to games anyway.) Black prior's dash bash is actually the most pronounced bash attack in the game. You are very literally uppercutting someone with a man sized shield. Compared to someone like Warlord who's whole body barely moves when he does his headbutt. As far as the damage it gives on a confirmed hit it's pretty average compared to other punishes. The idea with his bash attack is it's meant to be used in tandum with the rest of his mix ups. Versus say Warlord where his bash is more meant to be used as an actual offense. I think it's more fair to blame the damage it gives on the current state of the game. By that I mean the game currently favors and demands high damage guaranteed punishes. Something that was largely fixed even with BP on TG.


    "An ultra fast mid combo follow up after light bash that cant be parried, blocked, deflected, counter crushed... Only dodged (mostly on prediction) and mostly not punished... and it gets guaranteed light, i dont ever see any priors throwing follow up light afterwards, because why would they, there is no point."

    BP's combo bash is meant to supplement his mix up of going for the undodgable heavy or fast flowing into his UB heavy slash. If you could react dodge to the bash it would defeat the purpose of it existing in his mix up in the first place. And you go for the other options for more damage. If you only go for light bash light not only do you feed more revenge for less damage but you're basically telling anyone with a decent dodge attack to punish you. Because at that point they're not having to predict. They just dodge attack on orange. As for why people play this way? Because people are bad. It doesn't matter how good or bad a kit is designed. If something is effective and relatively easy to do people will go for it. That's just how people are. There's room to argue about a problem existing if something is easy to use but also powerful. But i'd say that Bash only BP's are a low is level skill barrier. It's something that's easily overcome in higher skill brackets. Now if said tactic was just as effective at high skill brackets then we'd have a problem.


    "Why cant warlord do mid combo bash?"

    To answer this specific example, warlord basically can. The constant buffs he's gotten over the season's basically give him frame advantage on every move he does. This basically means wether he doesn't follow up with an attack after a light or heavy or he feints and then goes for a bash he's got the upper hand. This applies to his finishers as well. As for the broad question you're basically asking for all other heros to have good to great mid combo viability. I agree with this. And to the devs credit they are currently trying to improve chain based offense.


    "why do they need to be such MASSIVE swings?"

    This will be addressing this section. The only hitbox I'd argue is overkill are his lights. Him having massive AoE with his swings is not only good from a mechanical standpoint but also makes sense because of how wide he's actually swinging. The game has largely ignored weapon range and hitboxes for a lot of heros. This is why we get things like Nobushi's forward dodge light having frankly laughable range but someone like Kensei's zone sliding across the floor to catch someone. The devs need to overhaul every character's hitboxes and tracking to add some consistency to the game. Also again it's not BP's fault that other hero's have lacking kits. Comparing something decent to something that's so clearly poor by default is basically inflating your point. BP has an undodgable property on his finisher heavies because his kit does not have forward range. He's meant to be oppressive up close but not at a distance. If heros could simply reaction avoid his mix up he wouldn't be good at his job.


    "Now his glorious flip..."

    I will be brief here since this is something i've actively talked about more than once. The developers should have looked into and adjusted all other full block manuvers when he was released. We can very slightly tone down it's damage. We can remove it's ability to flip feats, plunge attacks, ladder stuns. But what it does mechanically is fine.


    "I would personally much rather see him knocked down just a notch."

    You're not taking him down a notch. You're out right gutting the character. I really don't even want to get into this section on the specifics because it frankly shows your inexperience, lack of game sense, and overall misunderstanding of fundamentals. Making him nearly as poor as most other characters until they buff most of the cast is misguided at best. I will not contend that he can/should be adjusted at some point. I will not contend that for an average player he can be frustrating to fight. However we do not make wide sweeping changes with slippery slope implications based purely off of one's feelings. There are other heros that VASTLY deserve attention sooner than BP. There are general game wide problems that by far and a way deserve attention sooner than BP. In the grand scheme of it all "removing" BP's frustration isn't going to impact the game at a noticable level for average play. There will simply be another hero to complain about. The only 2 heros in this game that can be nerfed currently that WOULD have wide sweeping effects on the game are LB and Shaman. Both are must picks in dominion. Where as BP is all but replaced by Warlord. And even in BP's prime he was never close to being a mandatory pick. He simply replaced Zerk.
    Jesuschrist... This was one of the better text walls I have ever read on a Fighting game forum.
    I almost see a BP killing everyone who defends the nerfing on him. With comple mixes and all.
    I don't "love" him cause my pk in comparison is not very good against him, homever, I always say that her short comings are not the fault of the better design of him, no matter my saltyness level.

    Damn! you capitalize in every aspect on why "it is like that" .
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  3. #23
    If you want to play this game on easy mode BP is for you.

    Amazing feats very good damage. Invincible shield bash. I play as Conq I have massive GB risk at the start and at the end of the bash. BP does it with no risk faster. I also think he is one of the fastest to get revenge in the game.

    2 broken things annoy me about him is his amazing healing during the fight just be doing full block stance. In what sense logic common sense they thought this was a good idea? He heals 2 health state while I was recovering stamina. Very healthy.

    Then his Bulwark. It can be used 4-5 times in full stamina. Is it healthy for such move? Whatever people say he is made to fight groups. Okay fine. But if you miss it its GB. It's a move flips 4 people does 120 damage ignores attack block HA UB revenge CC sorry but if I miss my kick as Nobu I get same punishment? Im not saying all heroes should be same but this much gap? Also even if you miss it it's not like 4 people gonna throw a heavy at you at the same time. People dont know if you gonna miss it until you miss it. It can also be used in between getting hit by light chain.

    But what gets me the most is if it catches everybody why it is UB? Even if I dont get caught in it I get caught with massive range and arc UB. It also drains my stamina really?

    If this is going to be the norm in this game I'm happy with it. But there is massive gaps. Again I want heroes to be unique like close to before which we are very far now but it has to be sensible as well. I'm playing with a nerfed to ground season 1 hero trying to fight this much much superior heroes. Damage feats punishment are on different level.
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  4. #24
    Originally Posted by Erhanninja Go to original post
    If you want to play this game on easy mode BP is for you.

    Amazing feats very good damage. Invincible shield bash. I play as Conq I have massive GB risk at the start and at the end of the bash. BP does it with no risk faster. I also think he is one of the fastest to get revenge in the game.

    2 broken things annoy me about him is his amazing healing during the fight just be doing full block stance. In what sense logic common sense they thought this was a good idea? He heals 2 health state while I was recovering stamina. Very healthy.

    Then his Bulwark. It can be used 4-5 times in full stamina. Is it healthy for such move? Whatever people say he is made to fight groups. Okay fine. But if you miss it its GB. It's a move flips 4 people does 120 damage ignores attack block HA UB revenge CC sorry but if I miss my kick as Nobu I get same punishment? Im not saying all heroes should be same but this much gap? Also even if you miss it it's not like 4 people gonna throw a heavy at you at the same time. People dont know if you gonna miss it until you miss it. It can also be used in between getting hit by light chain.

    But what gets me the most is if it catches everybody why it is UB? Even if I dont get caught in it I get caught with massive range and arc UB. It also drains my stamina really?

    If this is going to be the norm in this game I'm happy with it. But there is massive gaps. Again I want heroes to be unique like close to before which we are very far now but it has to be sensible as well. I'm playing with a nerfed to ground season 1 hero trying to fight this much much superior heroes. Damage feats punishment are on different level.
    Considering pretty much any hero can punish BP's bash with a dodge attack I really disagree with your statements about such.
    His ability to heal with his feat is good. But not great. It's mainly beneficial when you sit on a point. As you're more than likely going to have more HP back if people constantly trickle on your point Versus someone just only getting the point heal. Mid fight it doesn't do enough to out heal chip damage and you cannot reliably sit in it long enough to swing a fight back in your favor unless you have an ally peel for you.
    It's very unlikely that you're going to ever flip a full team so you're inflating numbers here. And it's unblockable because all it would take would be someone to walk into the swing and block it to stop BP's animation. I honestly don't see how you're close enough to get hit by the damage and also not one of the people being flipped. You have to be practically hugging him. I play a lot of BP and I certainly can't recall that happening often.
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  5. #25
    mercyle5.Space's Avatar Junior Member
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    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    @Lukettle

    There's quite a lot in your post that I could pick out as wrong or misunderstood. But we'd be here all day and frankly I don't want to create another giant wall as a response (hence the not quote.) So i'm only going to pick a handful of statements you make that I feel are important to tackle. But before I even hop into that it's important to understand that a "balanced" hero doesn't mean the hero is perfect. The concept trying to be conveyed is that the hero in question is largely what other heros should aim to be around either in certain capabilities or power level. Another easy example would be Shaman. She's considered on of the best if not the best designed hero in the game. But she still has some over tuned aspects and problems. But yeah, balanced and perfect are not mutually exclusive terms. Anyone attempting to argue from such a position is misguided.


    "But when you take all of the stuff and put in one single package, its extremly strong. When you compare him with the rest of the cast and their bland kits against him."

    I have a problem with this sentence for two reasons. For one this implies his kit is bloated. The only way you could argue this in terms of FH mechanics is via move properties (undodgable, soft feints, bashes, unblockables etc) and we could make that claim on a lot of other heros. BP's kit is very simple and there's not much to it. It's the way it works via kitflow that makes it seem like he's got a lot. Second, it is not Black prior's fault that other kit's are lacking. The goal of the hero reworks is to specifically bring them up in capability and power comparable to some of the better heros that got released later on. So, while BP can absolutely be adjusted I disagree with the idea of blaming BP for other kit's shortcomings like this statement seems to be doing.


    "ultra fast barely telegraphed dash bash that can also be still followed up with light even on miss, not to mention it deals few points more damage than other bashes?"

    Black prior's dash bash cannot chain off of whiff. Only his zone can. I'm going to assume you just miss typed here. So i'll touch on the other two parts. Telegraphing refers to how pronounced an animation is (in regards to games anyway.) Black prior's dash bash is actually the most pronounced bash attack in the game. You are very literally uppercutting someone with a man sized shield. Compared to someone like Warlord who's whole body barely moves when he does his headbutt. As far as the damage it gives on a confirmed hit it's pretty average compared to other punishes. The idea with his bash attack is it's meant to be used in tandum with the rest of his mix ups. Versus say Warlord where his bash is more meant to be used as an actual offense. I think it's more fair to blame the damage it gives on the current state of the game. By that I mean the game currently favors and demands high damage guaranteed punishes. Something that was largely fixed even with BP on TG.


    "An ultra fast mid combo follow up after light bash that cant be parried, blocked, deflected, counter crushed... Only dodged (mostly on prediction) and mostly not punished... and it gets guaranteed light, i dont ever see any priors throwing follow up light afterwards, because why would they, there is no point."

    BP's combo bash is meant to supplement his mix up of going for the undodgable heavy or fast flowing into his UB heavy slash. If you could react dodge to the bash it would defeat the purpose of it existing in his mix up in the first place. And you go for the other options for more damage. If you only go for light bash light not only do you feed more revenge for less damage but you're basically telling anyone with a decent dodge attack to punish you. Because at that point they're not having to predict. They just dodge attack on orange. As for why people play this way? Because people are bad. It doesn't matter how good or bad a kit is designed. If something is effective and relatively easy to do people will go for it. That's just how people are. There's room to argue about a problem existing if something is easy to use but also powerful. But i'd say that Bash only BP's are a low is level skill barrier. It's something that's easily overcome in higher skill brackets. Now if said tactic was just as effective at high skill brackets then we'd have a problem.


    "Why cant warlord do mid combo bash?"

    To answer this specific example, warlord basically can. The constant buffs he's gotten over the season's basically give him frame advantage on every move he does. This basically means wether he doesn't follow up with an attack after a light or heavy or he feints and then goes for a bash he's got the upper hand. This applies to his finishers as well. As for the broad question you're basically asking for all other heros to have good to great mid combo viability. I agree with this. And to the devs credit they are currently trying to improve chain based offense.


    "why do they need to be such MASSIVE swings?"

    This will be addressing this section. The only hitbox I'd argue is overkill are his lights. Him having massive AoE with his swings is not only good from a mechanical standpoint but also makes sense because of how wide he's actually swinging. The game has largely ignored weapon range and hitboxes for a lot of heros. This is why we get things like Nobushi's forward dodge light having frankly laughable range but someone like Kensei's zone sliding across the floor to catch someone. The devs need to overhaul every character's hitboxes and tracking to add some consistency to the game. Also again it's not BP's fault that other hero's have lacking kits. Comparing something decent to something that's so clearly poor by default is basically inflating your point. BP has an undodgable property on his finisher heavies because his kit does not have forward range. He's meant to be oppressive up close but not at a distance. If heros could simply reaction avoid his mix up he wouldn't be good at his job.


    "Now his glorious flip..."

    I will be brief here since this is something i've actively talked about more than once. The developers should have looked into and adjusted all other full block manuvers when he was released. We can very slightly tone down it's damage. We can remove it's ability to flip feats, plunge attacks, ladder stuns. But what it does mechanically is fine.


    "I would personally much rather see him knocked down just a notch."

    You're not taking him down a notch. You're out right gutting the character. I really don't even want to get into this section on the specifics because it frankly shows your inexperience, lack of game sense, and overall misunderstanding of fundamentals. Making him nearly as poor as most other characters until they buff most of the cast is misguided at best. I will not contend that he can/should be adjusted at some point. I will not contend that for an average player he can be frustrating to fight. However we do not make wide sweeping changes with slippery slope implications based purely off of one's feelings. There are other heros that VASTLY deserve attention sooner than BP. There are general game wide problems that by far and a way deserve attention sooner than BP. In the grand scheme of it all "removing" BP's frustration isn't going to impact the game at a noticable level for average play. There will simply be another hero to complain about. The only 2 heros in this game that can be nerfed currently that WOULD have wide sweeping effects on the game are LB and Shaman. Both are must picks in dominion. Where as BP is all but replaced by Warlord. And even in BP's prime he was never close to being a mandatory pick. He simply replaced Zerk.
    This is amazing.
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  6. #26
    BP is a balanced hero. The only thing is annoying is his bash (dont pay attention to the bash-icon just recognize is animation and you will be fine.)
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  7. #27
    Black Prior is one of the most complete characters currently in for honor, but he does need a few tweaks to make him less of a pain in the bum. First of all, reduce his bulwark counter from 30 to 24. His finisher light from 17 to 12, since his light bash light does more then a heavy. And his bulwark heavy from 30 to 28. Many people tend to just bash light since it's so hard to punish, which ruins everyones oppinion about him. Another thing would be to remove his ability to cancel his dodge recovery into bulwark flip.
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  8. #28
    If you guys think invincible shield bash, healing in middle of fight and flipping everybody who comes near, flipping everybody in between being hit of light attack combo ignoring revenge UB HA attack block bash literally everything in the game guys at front to the back, guys at the back to the front with massive UB arc even though I dont get flipped I get hit dealing 120 damage 6-7 times in full stamina? Only punish is GB? I miss my Nobu kick doing 4 dmg I get GBed? Sure he is complete and balanced but unfortunately problem most of other heroes aren't complete or balanced.
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  9. #29
    Black prior is a joke. Shield spam use with light atack draining stamina. Slide forward guard break.
    In general, only hitokiri is nicer.
    Jorg also spams that invunerable grap stamina drainer. Just ridiculous.
    Those new chars are poor made and have too simple mechanics making them too easy to spam and disbalance.
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  10. #30
    Originally Posted by Sargonz Go to original post
    Black prior is a joke. Shield spam use with light atack draining stamina. Slide forward guard break.
    In general, only hitokiri is nicer.
    Jorg also spams that invunerable grap stamina drainer. Just ridiculous.
    Those new chars are poor made and have too simple mechanics making them too easy to spam and disbalance.
    -Complains about brain dead spammy tactics. Approves of the community decided hero that's the most brain dead and spammy to play.-

    Ok m8.
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