Changes, which will make Black Prior not imbalanced | Forums

[Jarlander_]

Hecking stellar idea my guy. Let's remove the function to flip multiple gankers to a character that was designed to deal with multiple players.

While we're at it let's remove caber toss's ability to knock over someone and instead only let it do minor damage.

AARGH! Don't compare Caber toss to Bulwark, think one seconde, the Bulwark can knock over 4 heroes, have 30 damages unblockable 360° attack, uninterruptible, invincibility and can be use on almost every moves, it's the more powerful and stressful tool in the game. Caber toss is slow, easy to avoid and punish, don't have uninterruptible and you have to do Balor's might after that who also don't have uninterruptible and these 2 thing cost a lot of stamina. So, Bulwark deserve this nerf to be more fair.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

AARGH! Don't compare Caber toss to Bulwark, think one seconde, the Bulwark can knock over 4 heroes, have 30 damages unblockable 360° attack, uninterruptible, invincibility and can be use on almost every moves, it's the more powerful and stressful tool in the game. Caber toss is slow, easy to avoid and punish, don't have uninterruptible and you have to do Balor's might after that who also don't have uninterruptible and these 2 thing cost a lot of stamina. So, Bulwark deserve this nerf to be more fair.

The Bulark Counter is made to punish multiple people, and as Raime explained, it has an extremely high cost if failed (namely, you are guardbroken and all gankers get in whatever they want to get in). Also, it is not interruptible, you can bash him out of the slash part before he actually gets any damage in. What is eactly stressful in it? Feint and guardbreak.

Also, why Caber Toss should be uninterruptible? it is a frickin bash that has a 40 damage followup, and is a softfeint's softfeint, all dealing 40 damage. It also guarantees your team an extra heavy if you land it. The entire offensive stance is one of the most irritating things to deal with, because it completely ignores all the base rules of the game and forces you to play this stupid 50/50 game which three shots you and also drains a lot of stamina to make you have even less counters. So, you are basically forced to exploit how poorly his defensive stance and transition is designed, unless you want to keep dealing with this bs, and chase him through the map and parry his idiotic backward lights.

The Caber Toss mixup is exactly like Shinobi's parry and deflect counters or Centurion's wall punish: very unfair things attached to an otherwise useless character, who beats you if you play their stupid game, but lose if you actually force them to play For Honor.

[Jarlander_]

The Bulark Counter is made to punish multiple people, and as Raime explained, it has an extremely high cost if failed (namely, you are guardbroken and all gankers get in whatever they want to get in). Also, it is not interruptible, you can bash him out of the slash part before he actually gets any damage in. What is eactly stressful in it? Feint and guardbreak.

Also, why Caber Toss should be uninterruptible? it is a frickin bash that has a 40 damage followup, and is a softfeint's softfeint, all dealing 40 damage. It also guarantees your team an extra heavy if you land it. The entire offensive stance is one of the most irritating things to deal with, because it completely ignores all the base rules of the game and forces you to play this stupid 50/50 game which three shots you and also drains a lot of stamina to make you have even less counters. So, you are basically forced to exploit how poorly his defensive stance and transition is designed, unless you want to keep dealing with this bs, and chase him through the map and parry his idiotic backward lights.

The Caber Toss mixup is exactly like Shinobi's parry and deflect counters or Centurion's wall punish: very unfair things attached to an otherwise useless character, who beats you if you play their stupid game, but lose if you actually force them to play For Honor.

I never say ''Caber toss need uninterruptible'', I just showed how much it was nothing compared to Bulwark.

You say ''feint and guardbreak'', it doesnt work against 3/4 of Black Prior players.

I know, Caber toss can give a free heavy attack for your team but Bulwark too and it can hit a full team so, it's more powerful than Caber toss.

Bulwark is stressful because you never know if you can attack or not, this tool work against everything except guarbreak but trying to guardbreak a good Black Prior is not a good idea.

Highlander 50/50 doesnt exist, you can easily avoid or punish it, it can only work against OOS ennemy or players who never learn.

Offensive Stance is the best idea that the devs have had in this game and it's more balanced from my point of view because you have more option against and with this.

I think that's all and sorry in advance if you don't understand everything, English is not my first language.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I never say ''Caber toss need uninterruptible'', I just showed how much it was nothing compared to Bulwark.

You say ''feint and guardbreak'', it doesnt work against 3/4 of Black Prior players.

I know, Caber toss can give a free heavy attack for your team but Bulwark too and it can hit a full team so, it's more powerful than Caber toss.

Bulwark is stressful because you never know if you can attack or not, this tool work against everything except guarbreak but trying to guardbreak a good Black Prior is not a good idea.

Highlander 50/50 doesnt exist, you can easily avoid or punish it, it can only work against OOS ennemy or players who never learn.

Offensive Stance is the best idea that the devs have had in this game and it's more balanced from my point of view because you have more option against and with this.

I think that's all and sorry in advance if you don't understand everything, English is not my first language.

No problem, not my first language either. I probably misunderstood what you meant with the uninterruptible, sorry!


Feint and guardbreak does work against the Black Priors. Bulwark is just as likely to come out as a parry, superior light, deflect, dodge, because you really don't have the time to reactionary use it. You must make a read with bp to use it.

Feint and guardbreak is not the only counter. For example,. I played about a hundred ranked duels with him in this season, mostly against Wardens, and you must absolutely be sure which level of shoulderbash you want to bulwark, you must make a read for it. You won't have time for example, to dodge the fully charged shoulderbash (which deals 40 damage) if I guessed incorrectly. Similarly, if I expect the Kick, the Cabertoss will land (and the damage is the same 30).

While I don't dispute how well this move works in team fights, it has multiple other downsides:

1. If one of your targets has revenge, you are guaranteed to go to the ground.
2. As I said in a former topic, it has the chance to put you out of stamina. The hero who is almost everywhere in 4v4 is Jormungandr, if one is around, then that really sucks.
3. You are very likely to hit a wall if you are not in an open space, which cancels the animation. The opponent's recovery is a bit longer, a guaranteed shoulderbash is still okay.
4. 30 damage is not that much. A fourth of an assassin's health. Almost all heroes have access to some damage reduction/shield/heal too, so 30 health in 4v4 means far less.


Regarding HL's offensive stance, I find it very irritating to deal with it. Missing anything costs 40 hp, even chained 500ms attacks are slower than his kick after a dodge. You lose stamina rapidly too, and if you are exhausted once, you are very likely dead against him. His attacks also have very weird hitboxes, so you never know when an offensive heavy will whiff and when not. Overall, I still think I find the damage and the dodges the unfair things, and while I never like when a hero is useless, I am a bit glad I am not forced to counter this constantly since I only hit them out once, then stay in their face and their defensive stance is useless (two stances were indeed a cool idea, but the execution with one being totally useless was rather terrible).

[Knight_Raime]

Please read my post again, because I've added some changes in it.
Lemme know what you think.

Re-read. I still disagree with most of it. Though I will say there is some room for a discussion about his flip's damage post TG damage changes.

I'll just go ahead and give my own suggestions on tweaking his kit since he's pretty much been my new go to since his release. (Centurion before that.)

1) BP can no longer flip/interact with feats.
2) BP can no longer flip plunge attacks. (though plunge attacks still need to be reworked.)
3) Assuming TG damage changes go through and the devs decide to nerf his flip i'd take it to 28. Maybe 27. But no lower than that.
4) Remove his ability to dodge to change his guard into said dodge direction.
5) BP opening dodge bash has longer dodge time and longer block time. Chained bash remains the same.

6) Dash heavy has more range and better tracking.
7) Soft feinted bash is now 100ms faster (now 600ms) has better side tracking, has less CGB/GB recovery on whiff. Can be soft feinted into from heavy finishers as well.


Explanations:

As far as nerfs go his flip can be brought back a little. It being able to interact with feats just seems nonsensical. Plunge attacks vary from very easy to attempt to very hard to find. Either way I don't believe someone should suffer a potential additional punish for trying. They already risk potentially death depending on fall distance. (for that matter we should probably remove his ability to flip someone coming off a ladder.) Though these nerfs are small I truly believe the blunder on Ubi's side was in not updating other full block stances when BP released. I still stand firm with that suggestion. This is one of the few times where buffing weaker things takes priority over nerfing something that's stronger.

BP isn't the only hero who is capable of dodging into attacks and blocking them. All standard guard heros can. It really should be removed entirely. But a good start is removing his capability of changing guard direction via dodge. For heros like kensei or Valk this makes sense because they have the superior block property. BP doesn't really need this extra defense. And finally the nerf to his dash bash. I'm unsure if it's 100% necessary to do so. But this nerf is very minor and conservative. You already can punish his dodge attacks with most dodge bashes and dodge attacks if you make a read. But it's REALLY hard for some characters. I still want it to be a read. Just a little bit more lax. His chain bash is left alone because it's an integral part of his chain mix ups. The goal is to hopefully discourage bash only priors without gutting it to uselessness.


Buffs wise it's still far too easy to disengage from BP. He's primarily a side point hero. Those heros are usually good at stalling and/or making single picks. There for if any hero(s) should be good at keeping strong offensive pressure it should be them. BP doesn't have a way to handle people who simply choose to not engage with him and merely contest the point. Hence the buffs to both of his chase tools.

[Knight_Raime]

AARGH! Don't compare Caber toss to Bulwark, think one seconde, the Bulwark can knock over 4 heroes, have 30 damages unblockable 360° attack, uninterruptible, invincibility and can be use on almost every moves, it's the more powerful and stressful tool in the game. Caber toss is slow, easy to avoid and punish, don't have uninterruptible and you have to do Balor's might after that who also don't have uninterruptible and these 2 thing cost a lot of stamina. So, Bulwark deserve this nerf to be more fair.

I was not serious in my suggestion it was a satirical response to hopefully prove how silly your suggestion was. I'm not against adjusting BP's flip to some degree. But you asked to remove literally the function of the mechanic. Hence why I said "lets remove Caber's ability to do as it's designed."

[Siegfried-Z]

7) Soft feinted bash is now 100ms faster (now 600ms) has better side tracking, has less CGB/GB recovery on whiff. Can be soft feinted into from heavy finishers as well.

I don't see the point of this change.

A 600ms bash on a non UB moove will not really work agaisnt decent player but will add another frustration for beginners.

Even if the bash would be 500ms it would not be a good idea due to adding another high pressure/low risk moove for BP.

It just add a bash option for a hero which is already a bash machine.

[Knight_Raime]

I don't see the point of this change.

A 600ms bash on a non UB moove will not really work agaisnt decent player but will add another frustration for beginners.

Even if the bash would be 500ms it would not be a good idea due to adding another high pressure/low risk moove for BP.

It just add a bash option for a hero which is already a bash machine.

/:

The move already has good forward distance and tracking. It's just too slow to catch someone who rolls. The 100ms faster should allow it to catch someone rolling.

BP can already threaten mid chain with regular bash, ub heavy, or undodgable heavy. You can't threaten with his longer distance bash because you can only soft feint into it from a neutral heavy. Allowing it to be a soft feint for combo heavies as well let's you threaten someone who decides to just roll from BP and not engage him.

Which was my stated reason for buffing both chase tools. As is his soft feint bash is really only used for target swapping to peel. But it's speed and the fact that it only comes from an opening heavy makes that very difficult and inconsistent to use as peel. (which is one of BPs sore spots.)

[Lukettle]

Just want to throw in my thought. I see many regular forum users here defending the character claiming he is balanced well designed hero etc. But the reality is, well-designed does not equal balanced.
He is not broken, but he is overpowered. Definitively overpowered. If you look at all of his moves separately, if you look at just him as a single one character, yes nothing seem overpowered on its own. Yeah, everything can be parried or dodged. Yada yada.

But when you take all of the stuff and put in one single package, its extremly strong. When you compare him with the rest of the cast and their bland kits against him, i just dont understand how can someone still argue this character is completely balanced. He is leagues above above most of the characters in the game, and defo the strongest character. Again, if you look at his moves separately, sure, not broken, but all of it together?
Even the smaller things like big swings on his lights, becoming ever so slightly more difficult to dodge, massive cleave long reach heavy attack swings, undodge-able massive cleave follow up heavies, ultra fast barely telegraphed dash bash that can also be still followed up with light even on miss, not to mention it deals few points more damage than other bashes? why? An ultra fast mid combo follow up after light bash that cant be parried, blocked, deflected, counter crushed... Only dodged (mostly on prediction) and mostly not punished... and it gets guaranteed light, i dont ever see any priors throwing follow up light afterwards, because why would they, there is no point. And as cherry on top it interrupts EVERYTHING opponent might do because its a bash. It is literally an equivalent of an ultimate godly superior light attack with no backdraws, why dont ALL characters have this? Why cant warlord do mid combo bash? Why cant orochi? why cant---insert rest of cast clearly worse than him, which is most--- do it ?
His feinted bash, not overpowered move but, but the range is so ridiculously long, multiple meters, conquerors is like quarter of it? Its a crap move otherwise, but that range is just insulting when you compare it to conq.
Back to his parriables, why do they need to be such MASSIVE swings? The easily accessible feintable unblockable he gets from full block stance is like 200+ degrees cone swing? Insanely good in crowded teamfights. Undodgeable property on his follow up heavies... Why? Giant swings are already super difficult to dodge, this property is just overkill on top... that also really hurts some not that great chars. (Nobushi stance comes to mind, yes nobu doing stance against that blue heavy is silly, but it STILL is that ever so slight added speck of power that together with everything else makes bp... not balanced).

Now his glorious flip, basically a superior parry/blockade that punishes EVERYTHING with 30+ damage? You dont need to guess which direction an attack is coming from, you dont need to care what kinda attack it is, it is only vulnerable to .... guardbreaks, as long as you time it right (like any other defensive move in the game) it will always work on everything. But okay, its just another small thing. But when he flips, he pretty much becomes invulnerable/nearly invulnerable and gets what often feels like 360 degrees unblockable swing, now i wonder, Why is it unblockable? Just another small overkill thing on top. People who fell for it and got flipped all get punished at the same time, but why people nearby who didnt get flipped arent allowed to block it? Why are they forced to run away from bps little flip swing anim? Overkill. No other characters have anything like that.

Lets get back to his lights, crushing counter on them, thats a pretty big deal if you ask me, he already has thousand different tools available, yet he still also gets to have something as good as that on top. How about we give it to all characters? I dont mean it as sarcasm, i wouldnt mind at all if everyone had this, it would make the game more interesting for all characters. As nuts as it is.
His zone... not the fastest but its still wide swing unblockable out of nothing with guaranteed light, its not even a real zone. Meanwhile other chars are stuck with something completely useless on their light+heavy input.

His full block, ... on its own its not that great ofcourse, but still has uses, you find yourself in a dire situation during a teamfight, so you just go into full block and slowly back away and so on, im 100% certain everyone playing bp has done that. (speaking of, he gets to move in it, warlord doesnt) He gets access to this, most of the cast doesnt, (plus it has the already mentioned flip and unblockable).
As a bonus, nobody else can do it on level/tier 2, he can infinitely heal himself with the passive feat. No need to run to healing zones in breach. No need to worry about bleeding and burning to death, how many times did you find yourself backing away from a fight with sliver of health and bleed/fire on top of it, inevitably dying moment later? Prior doesnt care. Yes, its a small thing, but yet again, id adds up.
How about other feats? On tier 3 i believe? He ignores revenge. Revenge is very powerful thanks to it always giving you a full shield, allowing you to stay alive long enough to ... well, take revenge on your "dishonorable" gankers. I do not like revenge and would have no problem with it being removed or simply becoming a tool for running away, but that doesnt matter, what matters is that you can have someone real good popping revenge over and over, being constantly protected by its shield, yet here comes black prior, who is already best character in the game, with loooots of pressure, pressing one button and poof, revenge shield is gone and you are likely going to die before you get another one. Everyone else is forced to struggle with the crappy revenge mechanics, and then you have prior.
In general his feats are just really good. And then you have characters with "slippery".

... I just hope the point im trying to make is understandable and reasonable. His moves on their own are not broken, can be dealt with, but all of them still powerful and better in what they do than equivalent moves of many other characters, thanks to all those little things. And then when combined into one kit, one big package, it becomes overpowered.
(well then again, i do think his bashes are a bit broken, but then yet another again, i consider the whole bash mechanic of this game broken, too many pros, too little cons)


Prior is never gonna be a "balanced" character as long as majority of the cast isnt on the exact same level as him. With just as many options, effective moves, etc.
Well designed, sure. Balanced? Not in the current state of the game.



I would personally much rather see him knocked down just a notch with some nerfs like flip attack being blockable by bystanders, possibly his recovery being a bit longer if he messes up, if he wants to take the big risk, get a big punish and then messes up the flip, he should stay vulnerable for a decent while, maybe not as crazy long as missed shugoki hug or warlord bash, but longer than it is now.
Undodgeable property on chained heavies removed.
Bashes nerfed/slowed/changed up to be less effective so that he doesnt rely on them as much as he does currently, they should be a side tool he only uses from time to time to mess with opponent, not his MAIN tool. He is even bashier than jorm. Or perhaps just remove either his mid combo bash or dash bash. So that he doesnt get to have both, he will instantly feel less ridiculous to play against.
Reduce the crazy wide range on his attacks so that they are more on the level with rest of the cast.
Take away his crushing counter? Or only make it available from one direction, like warden, for example only on his left, since thats the hand he carries the shield in, that would be a great change in my opinion.
Obviously make his antishield feat not work on revenge. I dont know how they would do that since all shields all the same, but that feat goes against the nature of the game due to revenge. Perhaps they could change it so that rather it instantly removing a shield, it reduces the shield to zero over time instead. Or instead of being instant it takes a few seconds to take effect after activation.(i prefer the previous idea) That way it wont be so revenge-breaking, but still be useful.
His heal in fullblock... (Lets be real, everyone can agree its messed up the way it is. Too strong for tier 2 feat on already strongest and tanky character.) It should take a while to activate after fullblock gets entered, so the guy cant just laugh off tier 4 stuff like bleed trap, fire trap, etc with a measly tier 2, or peacekeeper who died moment ago just before getting lethal bleed on him to take him with her, i cant even imagine the frustration such peacekeepers and other bleed chars feel in those situations. Or it should have a long cooldown between uses. I think it would be best if you simply had to wait 5 seconds or such in fullblock before the healing starts. Or they could also add, a suggestion ive seen before, where the feat only heals you up to max of 1/2 of your hp and doesnt work beyond that. Oh and yeah thick blood ignores bleeds, but you cant use thick blood to fully heal yourself anywhere at any time, nor does it help with fire.

They could either apply all these "nerfs" in some manner, or just some of them. But i think they are all reasonable. And once, someday, all of the cast is on BP level, with same amount of tools and good options, they can simply remove the nerfs and he will be "balanced".



This is just a view of an average player. I do play most of the cast. I dont know all the numbers, timings, perfect optimal counters, etc. etc. I just speak from the general-normal experience i have while playing the game and fighting BPs in 4v4s.

Quick edit: Ill also admit i didnt read everything here, but still wanted to post since i just had some bad experiences and it made me feel better to talk smack about this character. Not that i wasnt thinking all of this since his launch tho.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Just want to throw in my thought. I see many regular forum users here defending the character claiming he is balanced well designed hero etc. But the reality is, well-designed does not equal balanced.
He is not broken, but he is overpowered. Definitively overpowered. If you look at all of his moves separately, if you look at just him as a single one character, yes nothing seem overpowered on its own. Yeah, everything can be parried or dodged. Yada yada.

But when you take all of the stuff and put in one single package, its extremly strong. When you compare him with the rest of the cast and their bland kits against him, i just dont understand how can someone still argue this character is completely balanced. He is leagues above above most of the characters in the game, and defo the strongest character. Again, if you look at his moves separately, sure, not broken, but all of it together?
Even the smaller things like big swings on his lights, becoming ever so slightly more difficult to dodge, massive cleave long reach heavy attack swings, undodge-able massive cleave follow up heavies, ultra fast barely telegraphed dash bash that can also be still followed up with light even on miss, not to mention it deals few points more damage than other bashes? why? An ultra fast mid combo follow up after light bash that cant be parried, blocked, deflected, counter crushed... Only dodged (mostly on prediction) and mostly not punished... and it gets guaranteed light, i dont ever see any priors throwing follow up light afterwards, because why would they, there is no point. And as cherry on top it interrupts EVERYTHING opponent might do because its a bash. It is literally an equivalent of an ultimate godly superior light attack with no backdraws, why dont ALL characters have this? Why cant warlord do mid combo bash? Why cant orochi? why cant---insert rest of cast clearly worse than him, which is most--- do it ?
His feinted bash, not overpowered move but, but the range is so ridiculously long, multiple meters, conquerors is like quarter of it? Its a crap move otherwise, but that range is just insulting when you compare it to conq.
Back to his parriables, why do they need to be such MASSIVE swings? The easily accessible feintable unblockable he gets from full block stance is like 200+ degrees cone swing? Insanely good in crowded teamfights. Undodgeable property on his follow up heavies... Why? Giant swings are already super difficult to dodge, this property is just overkill on top... that also really hurts some not that great chars. (Nobushi stance comes to mind, yes nobu doing stance against that blue heavy is silly, but it STILL is that ever so slight added speck of power that together with everything else makes bp... not balanced).

Now his glorious flip, basically a superior parry/blockade that punishes EVERYTHING with 30+ damage? You dont need to guess which direction an attack is coming from, you dont need to care what kinda attack it is, it is only vulnerable to .... guardbreaks, as long as you time it right (like any other defensive move in the game) it will always work on everything. But okay, its just another small thing. But when he flips, he pretty much becomes invulnerable/nearly invulnerable and gets what often feels like 360 degrees unblockable swing, now i wonder, Why is it unblockable? Just another small overkill thing on top. People who fell for it and got flipped all get punished at the same time, but why people nearby who didnt get flipped arent allowed to block it? Why are they forced to run away from bps little flip swing anim? Overkill. No other characters have anything like that.

Lets get back to his lights, crushing counter on them, thats a pretty big deal if you ask me, he already has thousand different tools available, yet he still also gets to have something as good as that on top. How about we give it to all characters? I dont mean it as sarcasm, i wouldnt mind at all if everyone had this, it would make the game more interesting for all characters. As nuts as it is.
His zone... not the fastest but its still wide swing unblockable out of nothing with guaranteed light, its not even a real zone. Meanwhile other chars are stuck with something completely useless on their light+heavy input.

His full block, ... on its own its not that great ofcourse, but still has uses, you find yourself in a dire situation during a teamfight, so you just go into full block and slowly back away and so on, im 100% certain everyone playing bp has done that. (speaking of, he gets to move in it, warlord doesnt) He gets access to this, most of the cast doesnt, (plus it has the already mentioned flip and unblockable).
As a bonus, nobody else can do it on level/tier 2, he can infinitely heal himself with the passive feat. No need to run to healing zones in breach. No need to worry about bleeding and burning to death, how many times did you find yourself backing away from a fight with sliver of health and bleed/fire on top of it, inevitably dying moment later? Prior doesnt care. Yes, its a small thing, but yet again, id adds up.
How about other feats? On tier 3 i believe? He ignores revenge. Revenge is very powerful thanks to it always giving you a full shield, allowing you to stay alive long enough to ... well, take revenge on your "dishonorable" gankers. I do not like revenge and would have no problem with it being removed or simply becoming a tool for running away, but that doesnt matter, what matters is that you can have someone real good popping revenge over and over, being constantly protected by its shield, yet here comes black prior, who is already best character in the game, with loooots of pressure, pressing one button and poof, revenge shield is gone and you are likely going to die before you get another one. Everyone else is forced to struggle with the crappy revenge mechanics, and then you have prior.
In general his feats are just really good. And then you have characters with "slippery".

... I just hope the point im trying to make is understandable and reasonable. His moves on their own are not broken, can be dealt with, but all of them still powerful and better in what they do than equivalent moves of many other characters, thanks to all those little things. And then when combined into one kit, one big package, it becomes overpowered.
(well then again, i do think his bashes are a bit broken, but then yet another again, i consider the whole bash mechanic of this game broken, too many pros, too little cons)


Prior is never gonna be a "balanced" character as long as majority of the cast isnt on the exact same level as him. With just as many options, effective moves, etc.
Well designed, sure. Balanced? Not in the current state of the game.



I would personally much rather see him knocked down just a notch with some nerfs like flip attack being blockable by bystanders, possibly his recovery being a bit longer if he messes up, if he wants to take the big risk, get a big punish and then messes up the flip, he should stay vulnerable for a decent while, maybe not as crazy long as missed shugoki hug or warlord bash, but longer than it is now.
Undodgeable property on chained heavies removed.
Bashes nerfed/slowed/changed up to be less effective so that he doesnt rely on them as much as he does currently, they should be a side tool he only uses from time to time to mess with opponent, not his MAIN tool. He is even bashier than jorm. Or perhaps just remove either his mid combo bash or dash bash. So that he doesnt get to have both, he will instantly feel less ridiculous to play against.
Reduce the crazy wide range on his attacks so that they are more on the level with rest of the cast.
Take away his crushing counter? Or only make it available from one direction, like warden, for example only on his left, since thats the hand he carries the shield in, that would be a great change in my opinion.
Obviously make his antishield feat not work on revenge. I dont know how they would do that since all shields all the same, but that feat goes against the nature of the game due to revenge. Perhaps they could change it so that rather it instantly removing a shield, it reduces the shield to zero over time instead. Or instead of being instant it takes a few seconds to take effect after activation.(i prefer the previous idea) That way it wont be so revenge-breaking, but still be useful.
His heal in fullblock... (Lets be real, everyone can agree its messed up the way it is. Too strong for tier 2 feat on already strongest and tanky character.) It should take a while to activate after fullblock gets entered, so the guy cant just laugh off tier 4 stuff like bleed trap, fire trap, etc with a measly tier 2, or peacekeeper who died moment ago just before getting lethal bleed on him to take him with her, i cant even imagine the frustration such peacekeepers and other bleed chars feel in those situations. Or it should have a long cooldown between uses. I think it would be best if you simply had to wait 5 seconds or such in fullblock before the healing starts. Or they could also add, a suggestion ive seen before, where the feat only heals you up to max of 1/2 of your hp and doesnt work beyond that. Oh and yeah thick blood ignores bleeds, but you cant use thick blood to fully heal yourself anywhere at any time, nor does it help with fire.

They could either apply all these "nerfs" in some manner, or just some of them. But i think they are all reasonable. And once, someday, all of the cast is on BP level, with same amount of tools and good options, they can simply remove the nerfs and he will be "balanced".



This is just a view of an average player. I do play most of the cast. I dont know all the numbers, timings, perfect optimal counters, etc. etc. I just speak from the general-normal experience i have while playing the game and fighting BPs in 4v4s.

Quick edit: Ill also admit i didnt read everything here, but still wanted to post since i just had some bad experiences and it made me feel better to talk smack about this character. Not that i wasnt thinking all of this since his launch tho.

Your post is really long, so sorry if I miss out something.

First thing to say: I totally agree with the light finisher dealig 17 damage is silly. It should be 15, no reason for it to be stronger than Warlord's.


The things I disagree with:

1. All four bashes he has (including the zone) is telegraphed. From the four, only the slowest, the zone, can be chained from a whiff. All four are reaction punished by a dodge attack (let's not talk about the minority of the characters who has no dodge attack). The softfeint from the heavy into a bash has long range, but it is very reactable, gives out a free guardbreak for a potential 17 damage, and has very little usage (Conqueror's version is just as weak btw).
2. Prior Crushing Counters are nothing like Warden's. While they have omni direction, Warden gets 55 damage off of his crushing counter, while Prior gets 20 from both the light version and the dash attack version. It is a strong tool, but you are risking a light parry when you are using it, it gives a fair reward. Warlord has this too, Valkyrie's and Highlander's version even deal more damage, they are all multi direction attacks.
3. The undodgable property on the heavy finishers exists because they are designed to beat people dodging everything preemptively. This is literally the only move that forces to player to not just dodge away after a light attack hit them, otherwise, they would beat the bash, the unblockable or the light finisher with a single defensive move (which happens to be the generally safest one).
4. As you pointed out yourself, the prior zone is not a real zone, it is an extra bash, the main property of this is making the dodge shieldbash more viability (this move is not really viable on higher levels, especially since it is far more telegraphed than Warlord's or Conqueror's bash). The Bulwark Slash unblockable mainly serves as a real zone attack- not a really good one though, it can be reaction lighted or easily optionselected.d
5. I think I pointed out how the Bulwark Counter works, compared to other fullblocks. It gives a bigger reward, a wider attack, for more damage, but it also places you in more danger. A Warlord don't have to commit, he just enters fullblock, if he is hit, he gets in damage, and he can choose to leave it almost immedietely. Black Prior has to commit to the counter, which, if failed, gives more time for the opponent to land attacks, he recovers much slower on a missed Bulwark Counter.
6. I don't think there is much problem with the feats. Backing away using the bulwark heal is a viable idea, but not something you can really do consistently, and unless your opponents really just stands there without approaching you, the hp you get back is minimal. It takes a very long time to fully heal with it too, most of the methods available in the game normally are better, and while you are recovering this way, you don't really contribute anything. Oathbreaker is something I never take when I play BP, both other feats feel massively better (though of nails feeling the best one). It has a really long cooldown for the potential of taking down one person. Sidenote: the feat that really irritates me as a pk main is Thick Skin, which completely ignores my bleed, and Second Wind, which removes it while also healing the opponent. I don't remember too many times of a bp surviving because of this (I do remember one who entered bulwark after I clipped him a little with an active sharpen blade, and my bleed killed him anyway).

As a duelist, Prior is good, but not on the level of Lawbringer, and I also think he is not stronger than Gladiator, Warden, or even Warlord (whose only weakness is lacking a reaction punish to BP's bashes, but BP has this same weakness). In 4v4, he is a good pick too, but again, not something irreplacable (a good Warlord does the job just as good).

I keep asking for buffs for bad characters, like PK for example, for years now. Because that would be the way of fixing the game, making all characters as well versed and balanced as Black Prior. Nerfs create characters like PK (who just recovered from the worst, and keeps being bad), Nobushi, Shinobi (though it was necessary to nerf him for the greater good of the game), Centurion (though necessary as well), and Conqueror gets closer and closer to it with every patch. I don't think we want a game where every hero has a long moveset, but with most of them totally unusable. Prior is a perfect example of a hero who has multiple individual moves that give a fair reward for a fair risk, and together, they create a good kit.