Jormungandr changes: fixing the hero with only a few value changes | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

Yeah, I just activated the 3 shield perks together, it feels like a different hero (while there is honestly no change with pk between having 0 and 3 perks).

I think he can also whiff his bash for max punish, not just the light.

I still think the best option would be making the heavy finisher a hard hitter move which is the goal, not the setup. He would get the normal light-heavy max punish this way.

I really love the design, she is by far my favourite viking, so I really hope they will fix the gameplay.

Well, part of that problem is because of how the perks are distributed. Heavies tend to get the better ones overall. But that's for another discussion.

I mean, it would be the simplest way to remove his ability to knock someone over with the heavy when they're oos. We know they intended for this insane punish to exist. I just don't think they thought about other ways someone can guarantee the heavy on an OOS person. When you think about it his design is basically centered around going for that max punish. If we started sprinkling in damage else where to justify nerfing/removing that max punish he wouldn't really be Jorge anymore.

Your idea of making his finishers hard hitting is interesting given his design being around that slam. But I don't think we can buff it's damage too much. Especially given the context of TG changes. Letting his heavy finisher pause stamina regen is interesting. But I think since his bashes already do that it's kinda overkill. Letting them do stamina damage would be insane. (I think valk is the only hero who deserves to do stamina damage with an attack due to it being with her literal shield.)
Potentially we could add a blind effect to it for landing.

The sad thing for me is I really like his hammer's ability to splat someone on the wall. But even though it has a cool stagger animation when someone's hit by it they're not actually stunned longer than a normal heavy hitstun. What if we allowed him to chain into his punch after a heavy finisher? And allowed people to chain off of a punch but no confirmed damage? These wouldn't directly buff his heavy finishers. But I think it would make them more valuable in absence of being able to splat/knock someone over with the hammer.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Well, part of that problem is because of how the perks are distributed. Heavies tend to get the better ones overall. But that's for another discussion.

I mean, it would be the simplest way to remove his ability to knock someone over with the heavy when they're oos. We know they intended for this insane punish to exist. I just don't think they thought about other ways someone can guarantee the heavy on an OOS person. When you think about it his design is basically centered around going for that max punish. If we started sprinkling in damage else where to justify nerfing/removing that max punish he wouldn't really be Jorge anymore.

Your idea of making his finishers hard hitting is interesting given his design being around that slam. But I don't think we can buff it's damage too much. Especially given the context of TG changes. Letting his heavy finisher pause stamina regen is interesting. But I think since his bashes already do that it's kinda overkill. Letting them do stamina damage would be insane. (I think valk is the only hero who deserves to do stamina damage with an attack due to it being with her literal shield.)
Potentially we could add a blind effect to it for landing.

The sad thing for me is I really like his hammer's ability to splat someone on the wall. But even though it has a cool stagger animation when someone's hit by it they're not actually stunned longer than a normal heavy hitstun. What if we allowed him to chain into his punch after a heavy finisher? And allowed people to chain off of a punch but no confirmed damage? These wouldn't directly buff his heavy finishers. But I think it would make them more valuable in absence of being able to splat/knock someone over with the hammer.

I completely agree on the perk part. It is hilariously stupid how bad the balance is there. Having the ability to easily unlock three feats without reaching the max armor rating, and getting zero benefits from it is hilarious
If I have time, I will detail again my own idea in a different topic.


The stagger is good, but a pretty inconsistent thing, usually gives zero benefits. I think it is a good idea, and it is perfectly implemented on Nuxia, who never gets it as a guaranteed attack, and has to make some work to attempt it in the first place. If jorm would receive 3 parts chains, having this property as the finisher would be a different thing as well. But removing it is easier.

I throught about a blind on the finisher. Logical and neither spammable nor guaranteed on any punish, so I don't think it is unhealthy, even if people hate blinds. If it also chains into a bash, it might be a bit much though, I think an OOS target being blinded by a jorm is bad enough. The chained bash having a non guaranteed followup is okay though.

I don't think this max punish identity is healthy. It wasn't on pk, it is not on shinobi, centurion, lawbringer and aramusha. The short range harasser-disabler support tank is a good identity, but even if having this max punish would be all that unique, it still has to go. Losing even close to half max HP on a guaranteed punish is extremely unhealthy, this one is 2/3 for most heroes.

[Knight_Raime]

I completely agree on the perk part. It is hilariously stupid how bad the balance is there. Having the ability to easily unlock three feats without reaching the max armor rating, and getting zero benefits from it is hilarious
If I have time, I will detail again my own idea in a different topic.


The stagger is good, but a pretty inconsistent thing, usually gives zero benefits. I think it is a good idea, and it is perfectly implemented on Nuxia, who never gets it as a guaranteed attack, and has to make some work to attempt it in the first place. If jorm would receive 3 parts chains, having this property as the finisher would be a different thing as well. But removing it is easier.

I throught about a blind on the finisher. Logical and neither spammable nor guaranteed on any punish, so I don't think it is unhealthy, even if people hate blinds. If it also chains into a bash, it might be a bit much though, I think an OOS target being blinded by a jorm is bad enough. The chained bash having a non guaranteed followup is okay though.

I don't think this max punish identity is healthy. It wasn't on pk, it is not on shinobi, centurion, lawbringer and aramusha. The short range harasser-disabler support tank is a good identity, but even if having this max punish would be all that unique, it still has to go. Losing even close to half max HP on a guaranteed punish is extremely unhealthy, this one is 2/3 for most heroes.

I agree that Jorm's identity to rely on the max punish is unhealthy. I just don't know how to adjust his kit without massive revisions to get away from that. I think Jorm's identity part that comes from being a stamina bully is actually perfectly fine in the context of TG. By that I mean they can adjust his stamina damage numbers on TG so he's not nearly OOSing someone on a single parry via parry counter, etc. But since people are expending less stamina on TG people having the ability to damage that resource feels fair since it's limited to only a few heros at that point. (though stamina costs still need to be looked at for moves and potentially soft feints.)

Potentially a bash after a blind might be much. And he already does have a neutral bash anyway. I guess I could be fine with not letting his chain finisher heavy chain into his combo bash. However i'd ask that his finisher recoveries be low enough to be comparable to say current day WL. Where it feels like he's almost comboing after a finisher but he's not. Either that or the hitstun on his finishers need to give him frame advantage. either better recoveries or better hitstun would achieve my desired effect of letting him some what take advantage of the blind. But it not be spammable.

If you're referring to Nuxia's ability to throw people with her heavies I disagree on it being perfectly implemented. It's far too difficult to get to let alone land and the attack direction dictates the throw direction rather than your own input. The problem with Jorge having a 3 hit chain is that his mid chain heavies wouldn't have any particular usage. if you look at the other 3 chain reliant heros (nuxia, valk, kensei) they all have some way to some what skip through their mid chain to get to their finishers. Nuxia has traps, Valk has her soft feint bash, and kensei has pommel and soft feints. We'd have to give him some sort of tool mid chain that makes up for his lack luster mid chain attacks OR we'd have to give him some mechanics that let him skip to his finishers.

So as an easy example at any point in the chain he could soft feint his heavies into the gut punch chain bash. And every chain would have to be able to combo into said bash. And finally his guard break heavies would have to count as a second heavy in chain so he has direct access to his finishers. Personally speaking I don't think heros should be subjected to 2 hit chains only. Every hero needs access to all kinds of 3 hit chains or have infinite combo. But that's for a different discussion.

A more chain heavy Jorge could work. But I still don't think there's anyway to make his capability of knocking someone over work with his heavies without it being imbalanced. If they can find a way to keep it's ability to splat people against surfaces without it being tied to being able to trip people they should go for it. But I don't know if that's doable. I'm glad you agree with the chain bash being able to be chained off on whiff though.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I agree that Jorm's identity to rely on the max punish is unhealthy. I just don't know how to adjust his kit without massive revisions to get away from that. I think Jorm's identity part that comes from being a stamina bully is actually perfectly fine in the context of TG. By that I mean they can adjust his stamina damage numbers on TG so he's not nearly OOSing someone on a single parry via parry counter, etc. But since people are expending less stamina on TG people having the ability to damage that resource feels fair since it's limited to only a few heros at that point. (though stamina costs still need to be looked at for moves and potentially soft feints.)

Potentially a bash after a blind might be much. And he already does have a neutral bash anyway. I guess I could be fine with not letting his chain finisher heavy chain into his combo bash. However i'd ask that his finisher recoveries be low enough to be comparable to say current day WL. Where it feels like he's almost comboing after a finisher but he's not. Either that or the hitstun on his finishers need to give him frame advantage. either better recoveries or better hitstun would achieve my desired effect of letting him some what take advantage of the blind. But it not be spammable.

If you're referring to Nuxia's ability to throw people with her heavies I disagree on it being perfectly implemented. It's far too difficult to get to let alone land and the attack direction dictates the throw direction rather than your own input. The problem with Jorge having a 3 hit chain is that his mid chain heavies wouldn't have any particular usage. if you look at the other 3 chain reliant heros (nuxia, valk, kensei) they all have some way to some what skip through their mid chain to get to their finishers. Nuxia has traps, Valk has her soft feint bash, and kensei has pommel and soft feints. We'd have to give him some sort of tool mid chain that makes up for his lack luster mid chain attacks OR we'd have to give him some mechanics that let him skip to his finishers.

So as an easy example at any point in the chain he could soft feint his heavies into the gut punch chain bash. And every chain would have to be able to combo into said bash. And finally his guard break heavies would have to count as a second heavy in chain so he has direct access to his finishers. Personally speaking I don't think heros should be subjected to 2 hit chains only. Every hero needs access to all kinds of 3 hit chains or have infinite combo. But that's for a different discussion.

A more chain heavy Jorge could work. But I still don't think there's anyway to make his capability of knocking someone over work with his heavies without it being imbalanced. If they can find a way to keep it's ability to splat people against surfaces without it being tied to being able to trip people they should go for it. But I don't know if that's doable. I'm glad you agree with the chain bash being able to be chained off on whiff though.

I think we agree on the important things. I sadly missed the opportunity to play TG jormungandr, he might be completely fine there. I still think some changes would be welcomed, his recovery change, and the max punish removed surely among them.

I disagree on nuxia, az least I find that feature a good one, but that is off the topic anyway.

A softfeint bash would be nice from some heavies, az least on TG.

[Erhanninja]

They need to seriously rework this guy. He is simply broken. He has better HA than Hito plus all the tools he has. Literally slides 100 metre when attacking. One parry then 33/33/33 instantly on the floor with 100 HP difference. His feats are OP. I also noticed he gets revenge extremely quick from there he is practically immortal. It is very easy knock somebody down anyway boom shield over shield over shield. I still cant believe what Devs were thinking with this guy.

[Sweaty_Sock]

Stamina bullies being removed was one of the moves I was happy with. Then they made uber stamina bully. He just needs a rework, I think the best description of my problems with him are 'hes a round peg in a square hole'.

EDIT: the stamina drain/max punish as raime was saying is a bad idea, and as they say you can polish a dog t*&d but is still a t*$d. The bully by physical its better, the bash to wall with heavies, chain off blocked attacks etc.

[Erhanninja]

Stamina bullies being removed was one of the moves I was happy with. Then they made uber stamina bully. He just needs a rework, I think the best description of my problems with him are 'hes a round peg in a square hole'.

EDIT: the stamina drain/max punish as raime was saying is a bad idea, and as they say you can polish a dog t*&d but is still a t*$d. The bully by physical its better, the bash to wall with heavies, chain off blocked attacks etc.

This is the problem I have with this game and Devs. Everytime they do something they contradict themselves it's like staff changes every month. They go take something away or nerf it saying its OP broken unhealthy for the game. Then they turn around give it to somebody else even stronger.

They go nerf something that doesnt need nerf to the ground. And they go buff buff buff something that doesnt need even need a buff.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

An easy way to fix the max punish without much change: if you make a heavy input anytime, with your target on the ground, you instantly do a hammer slam, even if the attack would be a chained one. This would prevent Jorm from doing that 80 damage max punish (and hopefully wouldn't open up opportunities for new broken stuff), but the staggering property this way could stay on the heavy finishers.

[Knight_Raime]

I think we agree on the important things. I sadly missed the opportunity to play TG jormungandr, he might be completely fine there. I still think some changes would be welcomed, his recovery change, and the max punish removed surely among them.

I disagree on nuxia, az least I find that feature a good one, but that is off the topic anyway.

A softfeint bash would be nice from some heavies, az least on TG.

He was more viable. But not really in a healthy way xD
I should be doing a thread similar to my Zhanhu thread but for Jorge in this next week or less. Hopefully you'll swing on by and give feedback.

And I like Nuxia's heavy finisher mechanic conceptually I just don't think it works well in practice. However, Her traps were a lot more unreactable on TG. (imo she was being slept on.) Maybe in the context of TG her heavy finisher mechanic is more usable. But I still would like you to be able to dictate where you throw the person rather than that be left up to the initial attack direction.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

He was more viable. But not really in a healthy way xD
I should be doing a thread similar to my Zhanhu thread but for Jorge in this next week or less. Hopefully you'll swing on by and give feedback.

And I like Nuxia's heavy finisher mechanic conceptually I just don't think it works well in practice. However, Her traps were a lot more unreactable on TG. (imo she was being slept on.) Maybe in the context of TG her heavy finisher mechanic is more usable. But I still would like you to be able to dictate where you throw the person rather than that be left up to the initial attack direction.

I will definetely give my feedback on her.