Jormungandr changes: fixing the hero with only a few value changes | Forums

[Goat_of_Vermund]

While Jorm is a pretty disliked hero because of her broken gank capabilities, because she stops the fights with turtling and because she has quite insane feats, on the other hand she is pretty useless as a duelist, with surprisingly low damage, no working offense and a constant urge to chase the opponent (which makes her kitable- you are forced to follow the opponent you bashed to get anything out of it, which creates this hilarious and on both sides irritating chase through).

The fixes:

1. Bashes get direct damage. Neutral bash and chain bash deals 10 damage, the ones after a guardbreak or a succesful parry deal 4. This would create offense by introducing chip damage, giving a reward for the jorm if she made a correct read. These attacks are low damage, on the level of Gladiator's Fuscina Ictus, and with about the same rewards on a good counter. It is also silly that someone can just get a metal hammerhead or a knee to the groin all day without suffering any damage.

2. Every bash should stop stamina regeneration for 2 seconds as it does now, however, their stamina damage should be only 15 (their cost also need reduction to prevent the jorm running out of stamina before the opponent on succesful bashes). It is still 1/8 of someone's stamina, but it would stop the game far less.

3. The Hammar Slam should deal only 40 damage, but it should regen the target only to half of their maximum stamina, with 2 seconds stop on the stamina regeneration. It would help the Jorm keeping the advantage a bit, not completely reset to neutral (and 50 damage is very high).

4. The first two passive feats need less. The one that regens hp on a bash should give only 5 instead of 10, and the shield after a hammar slam should only last for 5 seconds (if I understand correctly, it's main purpose is to protect the jorm from external attacks to make the slam more safer, 5 seconds does it very well).


+Maybe it is just me: the heavy finishers seem to have a very small hitbox, which are seemingly very easy to dodge (a single timing avoids the unblockable and the chain bash both if I am correct). Maybe this should be addressed. Maybe make it 100ms slower, but make it track better (this might reduce those insane punishes a bit).


I think this way, she would be far less irritating, even on the lower skill levels, but more viable in duels. What do you think?

[Jarlander_]

Jormungandr need to be redesigned if we want him/her to be viable and more healthy for the game.

[Knight_Raime]

The "chip damage" idea is one i've seen a few times. I feel compelled to mention the only reason this is really asked for is because Jorge has a hard time confirming damage on his own via live. However on TG I found it a lot easier for him to get damage. (IIRC he was actually banned in competitive scrims on the TG.) So if we assume that the TG changes will come through mostly the same we wouldn't really need to give him chip damage via his bashes.

Lowering the stamina damage some what makes sense even in the context of TG. I could see them bringing down both the punch and parry counter a little (in regards to TG.) But honestly either the stamina damage he does is too much or it does too little. Simply adjusting the numbers will not fix his inherently bad design. If the devs do not feel like rebooting the hero in some way then yes. We can lower the stamina damage some. But not too much. Or we just end up removing a character from viability.

Slam was nerfed to 40 damage on TG and it still was too strong imo. For one his max OOS punish (whiff light off throw into heavy finisher into slam) still existed. Which feels really terrible when everyone else is now doing reasonable damage (minus a few instances.) The other is a combination of feat imbalance and perks. Not to mention he still gets to keep a full health shield after revenge due to a bug when he slams.

I don't think his heal needs to be nerfed. If we did nerf it we could bring it down from 10 to 8. But the bigger problem is shields. He has access to the perks that give him extra shields along with having a reliable way to give himself shields. His shield value right now should be brought down by a minimum of 10 points. And if it's possible perks should not effect that shield he gets. Really the shield perk should probably changed to just giving him damage resistance.

But yeah. If the devs can some how solve the problem with Jorge and shield gain he'd be a lot less of a problem.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

The "chip damage" idea is one i've seen a few times. I feel compelled to mention the only reason this is really asked for is because Jorge has a hard time confirming damage on his own via live. However on TG I found it a lot easier for him to get damage. (IIRC he was actually banned in competitive scrims on the TG.) So if we assume that the TG changes will come through mostly the same we wouldn't really need to give him chip damage via his bashes.

Lowering the stamina damage some what makes sense even in the context of TG. I could see them bringing down both the punch and parry counter a little (in regards to TG.) But honestly either the stamina damage he does is too much or it does too little. Simply adjusting the numbers will not fix his inherently bad design. If the devs do not feel like rebooting the hero in some way then yes. We can lower the stamina damage some. But not too much. Or we just end up removing a character from viability.

Slam was nerfed to 40 damage on TG and it still was too strong imo. For one his max OOS punish (whiff light off throw into heavy finisher into slam) still existed. Which feels really terrible when everyone else is now doing reasonable damage (minus a few instances.) The other is a combination of feat imbalance and perks. Not to mention he still gets to keep a full health shield after revenge due to a bug when he slams.

I don't think his heal needs to be nerfed. If we did nerf it we could bring it down from 10 to 8. But the bigger problem is shields. He has access to the perks that give him extra shields along with having a reliable way to give himself shields. His shield value right now should be brought down by a minimum of 10 points. And if it's possible perks should not effect that shield he gets. Really the shield perk should probably changed to just giving him damage resistance.

But yeah. If the devs can some how solve the problem with Jorge and shield gain he'd be a lot less of a problem.

Honestly, I don't know how he worked in TG. I spent all my time in TG with my pk, making all those Lawbringer's life as miserable as possible (can't wait to do it again). If he really can get damage in in TG, then it is fine.

I thought about the 40 damage slam in the current game. In TG, it should be around 35 at most.


Of course, the hero should be totally different, the entire stamina bully thing is totally bad. This weapon should give a lot of staggering and blind properties with high damage, making a real hard hitter instead of this would have been so much better. I picked Jorm up now because of visuals, but he is obviously flawed.

[Knight_Raime]

Honestly, I don't know how he worked in TG. I spent all my time in TG with my pk, making all those Lawbringer's life as miserable as possible (can't wait to do it again). If he really can get damage in in TG, then it is fine.

I thought about the 40 damage slam in the current game. In TG, it should be around 35 at most.


Of course, the hero should be totally different, the entire stamina bully thing is totally bad. This weapon should give a lot of staggering and blind properties with high damage, making a real hard hitter instead of this would have been so much better. I picked Jorm up now because of visuals, but he is obviously flawed.

He was pretty busted. It was actually kind of hilarious to see him jump from a meme pick to being out right banned.
The problem with lowering the slam's damage below 40 is you're essentially giving him a heavie's worth of damage but for a lot more effort.

As I (I guess poorly eluded to) the slam's damage itself is really only a problem in the context of his max oos punish. Even if 40 damage is notably higher compared to most other punishes in TG it's essentially just an oos punish. And if you ONLY look at the slam in the context of other hero's OOS punishe's it's pretty fair. The problem is you can land a heavy AND the slam. They can probably just nerf his heavy finisher damage and this particular situation will be solved mostly.

The major issue aside from his design philosophy is his survivability. But i've already gone into that.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

He was pretty busted. It was actually kind of hilarious to see him jump from a meme pick to being out right banned.
The problem with lowering the slam's damage below 40 is you're essentially giving him a heavie's worth of damage but for a lot more effort.

As I (I guess poorly eluded to) the slam's damage itself is really only a problem in the context of his max oos punish. Even if 40 damage is notably higher compared to most other punishes in TG it's essentially just an oos punish. And if you ONLY look at the slam in the context of other hero's OOS punishe's it's pretty fair. The problem is you can land a heavy AND the slam. They can probably just nerf his heavy finisher damage and this particular situation will be solved mostly.

The major issue aside from his design philosophy is his survivability. But i've already gone into that.

I think then that the problem with the heavy finisher could be solved if they would somehow be able to make the max punish impossible. Maybe it should deal higher damage (in the current game, 40, in the TG setting, 28 or so), but no longer would move the target (instead the new property would be stopping stamina regen on contact). It honestly feels wrong to deal so low damage with him, I would gladly give up this property, some stamina damage and the max punish for higher regular damage (25 damage on a guardbreak is a joke with this weapon, it just feels so unsatisfying to land it and feel zero power behind your two handed strikes with a 5 kilogram hammer).

The feats, especially the shield, really feels too much.

[ShortOnTalent]

Imo I think jorm is in a pretty bad place. I hear all the time how incredibly weak he is on pc, but as a console player primarily in 4v4 modes, he needs an adjustment. I understand it’s hard to nerf a character without completely ruining him, but that 2nd feat along with all his stamina punishment is too strong.

If you asked me straight up if he needs nerfed, it’d be a resounding yes. But like I said I’m talking strictly from 4v4 console.

[Knight_Raime]

I think then that the problem with the heavy finisher could be solved if they would somehow be able to make the max punish impossible. Maybe it should deal higher damage (in the current game, 40, in the TG setting, 28 or so), but no longer would move the target (instead the new property would be stopping stamina regen on contact). It honestly feels wrong to deal so low damage with him, I would gladly give up this property, some stamina damage and the max punish for higher regular damage (25 damage on a guardbreak is a joke with this weapon, it just feels so unsatisfying to land it and feel zero power behind your two handed strikes with a 5 kilogram hammer).

The feats, especially the shield, really feels too much.

Well a lot of max punishes usually involve whiffing an attack to get into it. It's been discussed at high level play of making it so you can't "back whiff" into chains. I don't think any solution has been given on how to solve this so far. But whatever might be done to fix that could also indirectly fix Jorge's max punish. As he does have to whiff a light to get into his finisher.

Well yes. I agree his shield potential is bonkers. But i've already touched on that. It's equal parts perks and his feat itself. combined with the bug. How much shields he gets from slam should be nerfed. But it's not going to have as big of an impact on him if perks can still effect how much shields he gets. So that needs looking into.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Well a lot of max punishes usually involve whiffing an attack to get into it. It's been discussed at high level play of making it so you can't "back whiff" into chains. I don't think any solution has been given on how to solve this so far. But whatever might be done to fix that could also indirectly fix Jorge's max punish. As he does have to whiff a light to get into his finisher.

Well yes. I agree his shield potential is bonkers. But i've already touched on that. It's equal parts perks and his feat itself. combined with the bug. How much shields he gets from slam should be nerfed. But it's not going to have as big of an impact on him if perks can still effect how much shields he gets. So that needs looking into.

Yeah, I just activated the 3 shield perks together, it feels like a different hero (while there is honestly no change with pk between having 0 and 3 perks).

I think he can also whiff his bash for max punish, not just the light.

I still think the best option would be making the heavy finisher a hard hitter move which is the goal, not the setup. He would get the normal light-heavy max punish this way.

I really love the design, she is by far my favourite viking, so I really hope they will fix the gameplay.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Imo I think jorm is in a pretty bad place. I hear all the time how incredibly weak he is on pc, but as a console player primarily in 4v4 modes, he needs an adjustment. I understand it’s hard to nerf a character without completely ruining him, but that 2nd feat along with all his stamina punishment is too strong.

If you asked me straight up if he needs nerfed, it’d be a resounding yes. But like I said I’m talking strictly from 4v4 console.

You are right and wrong at the same time. She is one of those heroes who have only one arm, but that arm is unfairly strong (in her case, the feats, gank and survivability is that arm, the missing one is everything else).