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  1. #1

    Addressing the gameplay experience

    It seems the developers from the state of play are continuing to go down the 'make enemies feel more beefy' while continuing to 'balance' the game. The immediate arguments here are 'optimize your build', you dont like 'hard', yada yada. But is that really what it is?

    Arent there other ways to achieve 'hard' content without just scaling enemy defenses? Does taking this approach compromise other core game aspects?

    Let's actually take a look at this sponge approach to 'hardness' from a solo heroic check point perspective. Put alot of optimized builds together along different paths and I can distill this experience down to one statement.....

    - Manage your Foxhole -

    yes that is what this creates. You pop up take shots as quick as you can while an enemy turns their SMG sideways, walks straight towards you, walks around your barricade and keeps firing. This results in needing to constantly fall back as you deal with this one enemy, the other enemies are moving to your right or left, but as long as you have a few of these fellers just walking up you cant really do anything about them.

    okay, lets look at this with other builds. Cc, status dmg, tank sheild, skill dmg. Same thing with greatly enhanced time to kill. Clip after clip just to take down a elite enemy with stupid non tactical AI. Ran out of ammo on both builds before clearing the check point. Status dmg took less time than the others. But felt largely the same.

    Slow. Unrewarding. Not Engaging.

    What have we given up?

    Tactical game play. Moving to flank an enemy doesnt really exist. They tank the crap out of these bullets. We arent managing the map and how the NPCs are approaching us, clearing the enemy moving up on the right so we have a fall back spot for when the adds on the left keep pushing. We are just managing our next Foxhole. Cower as we slowly drain down our enemies armor. Clip reload clip reload.... Boring

    Ok. So let's make this 'hard' without feeling weak.

    1. Lower enemy tankiness for most classes
    2. Increase NPC aggressiveness (obviously enemy class dependent).
    3. Make rushers bounce between cover to cover as they come after us with intent to blow our heads off with their shotty.
    3. Make rushers approach with different formations
    4. Keep enemies being deadly
    5. If we are out of cover, enemy responds at sinilar rate as we would
    6. Tanky enemies have their place. Specifically the out of cover types.

    What do we gain if done properly?

    A tactical cover based shooter. An experience where we need to manage the map as it dynamically changes. Enemies and players playing by similar rules.

    I want a hard experience. But creating hard through sponge tank enemies isnt hard. It is boring and limits the experience. And overall it is counter to the tactical based game play a cover based shooter should have.

    Just my input. And until addressed I'll be sitting here in my foxhole, shooting my bb gun, playing with different rules than my enemy. Gettig from where we are today, to here, likely will never happen. But steps in the right direction can be taken, and approaches other than lowering and raising the enemy TTK through player/enemy buff/debuff actions need to be considered.
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  2. #2
    Auztinito's Avatar Senior Member
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    This will negate everything achieved like cc, tank, and heal/repair builds. This in turn, it's be better to not have stats at all. Everything can headshot and ect. You'd get Ghost Recon (which is not a bad game) but there is no mid ground for this. They either break diversity into what weapons you use or play-styles. I much prefer play-styles and stats. If it was an actual cover shooter, there would be no point in loot, as well.
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  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Auztinito Go to original post
    This will negate everything achieved like cc, tank, and heal/repair builds. This in turn, it's be better to not have stats at all. Everything can headshot and ect. You'd get Ghost Recon (which is not a bad game) but there is no mid ground for this. They either break diversity into what weapons you use or play-styles. I much prefer play-styles and stats. If it was an actual cover shooter, there would be no point in loot, as well.
    That isnt true.

    Its finding the mid range add defense rates values that balances the utility of each class.

    Keeping adds deadly, while increasing aggressiveness makes the healing more important as the situation rapidly changes.

    Yes, control skills would be shorter, but more in line with the time to kill with the faster game play.

    Imo they steered the ship too far in one direction. There's middle ground to be had.

    I'm not expecting adds to just fall without effort. But to walk around barricades without a care in the world?
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  4. #4
    desrocchi's Avatar Senior Member
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    If they wanted to have classes in the game they could have introduced them, not forced them onto us with an unbalanced and unfun game.

    Solo players get the shaft as always, since we can't have a cc/helaer/tank/dps build all together.
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  5. #5
    Auztinito's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by TheWanderer17 Go to original post
    That isnt true.

    Its finding the mid range add defense rates values that balances the utility of each class.

    Keeping adds deadly, while increasing aggressiveness makes the healing more important as the situation rapidly changes.

    Yes, control skills would be shorter, but more in line with the time to kill with the faster game play.

    Imo they steered the ship too far in one direction. There's middle ground to be had.

    I'm not expecting adds to just fall without effort. But to walk around barricades without a care in the world?
    Massive has tried since Division 1 to find that mid-ground. I'd be in favor of it it but you'd have to redesign gear, game-play, weapons, and ect. You'd basically get a new game. Tu7 was probably the closet thing to it and it literally drove me to play the game. I actually dreaded booting it up on my PlayStation..Is there a mid-ground perhaps but it's not with Tu7's system or Tu8's system.

    The only way a mid-ground could work, in my opinion is something we seen back in Div 1 2012 Reveal. No gadget / gear mods. These are cut out to give the player static damage. The variants will be designed to reinforce different play-styles or loadouts. On top of this, you'd need a weapon system where weapons are static damage-wise but have some form of rarity to them and a reason to loot. You could use a durability mechanic like in Survival games. Your mid-ground is a very thin line to nail. Destiny, Borderlands, and just about every loot shooter or looter has "spongey enemies". It sucks but there has not been many games that use sophisticated AI alone to make a game difficult. The closest games are ones that rely on patterns, phases, and other mechanics.

    Now if, we're talking about specific things like flanking. I'd say hard to hit weak-points on backs of enemies could work. Making the AI bounce from cover-to-cover first could help but straight up lowering their defense will bring about one shot seekers and ect. I find the balance in a good spot, right now. If any real adjustment to build diversity need to be made. It's through weapon talents and gear-sets.
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  6. #6
    Cadillac-Jack's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by desrocchi Go to original post
    I

    Solo players get the shaft as always, since we can't have a cc/helaer/tank/dps build all together.
    Well you kind of can if you build for it.

    This is my self heal/Tank/DPS with a bit of CC build. (I don't usually put them up but i'll do this one. in here.) Dual LMG's

    9 red
    8 blue

    1 x Petrov (Gloves)
    1 x Coyote Mask
    4 x True Patriot.
    Weapons Pestilence at 80K damage
    MK46 or M60 at 100K damage
    Armour 1.2 million.

    Gunner spec for the 50 round mag and ammo regeneration.
    Banshee Pulse
    Heal Hive or stinger Hive
    Foam Grenades


    True Patriot gives a good set of bonuses Red/White and Blue.

    White is the most important (WHITE shooting the enemy repairs you armour by 5% every second) the more bullets you land the more repairs you get, When using the Pestilence it deals damage over time which in turn counts as hits so your Armour repair can go upto 16% every second. shooting your gun at an enemy literally gives you Armour regen.

    What I find as a strategy, if you are getting rushed throw the stinger hive in, and if any get past that use your Banshee pulse it incapacitates them enough to let rip with your LMG's or throw in the Foam grenade. or use the pulse first to incapacitate then the stinger hive.

    If you are not using the stinger hive use the Heal hive, if you are going to engage drop it at your feet and open fire again if they rush use the banshee pulse it stops them just enough to kill them.

    The build has enough DPS (80 to 100K damage) way enough armour and healing, and a few oddities that keep the enemies under control. Like the pulse/foam grenades and or the Stinger hive.

    Even with 0 yellow the stinger hive still puts out 340K damage.

    I use this build all the time on challenging. Missions and Heroic open world Roaming.
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  7. #7
    Craig1405's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Cadillac-Jack Go to original post
    Well you kind of can if you build for it.

    This is my self heal/Tank/DPS with a bit of CC build. (I don't usually put them up but i'll do this one. in here.) Dual LMG's

    9 red
    8 blue

    1 x Petrov (Gloves)
    1 x Coyote Mask
    4 x True Patriot.
    Weapons Pestilence at 80K damage
    MK46 or M60 at 100K damage
    Armour 1.2 million.

    Gunner spec for the 50 round mag and ammo regeneration.
    Banshee Pulse
    Heal Hive or stinger Hive
    Foam Grenades


    True Patriot gives a good set of bonuses Red/White and Blue.

    White is the most important (WHITE shooting the enemy repairs you armour by 5% every second) the more bullets you land the more repairs you get, When using the Pestilence it deals damage over time which in turn counts as hits so your Armour repair can go upto 16% every second. shooting your gun at an enemy literally gives you Armour regen.

    What I find as a strategy, if you are getting rushed throw the stinger hive in, and if any get past that use your Banshee pulse it incapacitates them enough to let rip with your LMG's or throw in the Foam grenade. or use the pulse first to incapacitate then the stinger hive.

    If you are not using the stinger hive use the Heal hive, if you are going to engage drop it at your feet and open fire again if they rush use the banshee pulse it stops them just enough to kill them.

    The build has enough DPS (80 to 100K damage) way enough armour and healing, and a few oddities that keep the enemies under control. Like the pulse/foam grenades and or the Stinger hive.

    Even with 0 yellow the stinger hive still puts out 340K damage.

    I use this build all the time on challenging. Missions and Heroic open world Roaming.
    I'm using a very similar build for group play. No coyote mask but Tardigrade chest to help survivability of the team and the TP backpack to increase the % buff/debuff. The rest is pretty much the same. Works really well with pestilence and will of course be even better for team play when the white mark is fixed so that it benefits the whole group and not just the player wearing the set. Nice build.
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  8. #8
    desrocchi's Avatar Senior Member
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    I tried having CC solo but I get much better results killing the enemies off before they get to me, because usually the moment I need CC is when the enemies are too many and surround me, but then CC would only delay them for a couple of seconds.
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  9. #9
    Cadillac-Jack's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by desrocchi Go to original post
    I tried having CC solo but I get much better results killing the enemies off before they get to me, because usually the moment I need CC is when the enemies are too many and surround me, but then CC would only delay them for a couple of seconds.
    Hence why you use the Stinger hive and Banshee pulse together, they will both disable the enemy enough to kill them if you get rushed.
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  10. #10
    desrocchi's Avatar Senior Member
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    Elite enemies barely get affected by CC, especially armoured ones.

    I have no use for CC against red or purple enemies.
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