Member
First off:
I realize, Ubisoft made a co-op focused, action-oriented game.
Over 1000 people worked for years on this AAA title around the globe.
Hundreds of Q&A testers went through this game in 10.000s of hours.
'Not every game can be for everyone'.
A Triple-A studio game has to serve the young and old, the physically impaired, as well as the eSports 500APM athletes.
I do not doubt the overall dedication to quality and testing, despite the rough start of this game and the overall criticism by more dedicated GR-player them I am.
So, back to the topic.
"Ghost Recon" - the brand - stands for something. It evokes certain expectations. Recon. Planning. Stealth. Tactical. Squad-based. Combat.
As a Solo Player, who does NOT want to join random people on the Internet, to run around like chickens (there is always "THAT GUY", who has to run far up ahead, in fear, he would lose XP to his 'Team'mates), nor has the friends to play at all times of the day (who WOULD follow a team-leader and obey tactical orders), you are left alone to figure out how adjust your game settings to match your playstyle.
And, to GRB maker's credits, this game offers a TON of player control and settings to adjust.
What it does NOT provide - and cannot, apparently - is a certain kind of 'game balance', an ability to adjust the game's difficulty and enemy AI behavior.
Maybe, I am wrong. I have not seen the code. Probability is high, that I AM wrong. But, to me, as a player, the "difficulty" seems to be simply dependent on hit-points of the player and/or enemies. And - maybe - the amount of enemy spawning. That's it. Is it?
During the 'open beta', I 'complained' about a certain - recurring - gameplay loop, which left the solo player no chance. Every time, the game session ended it the same, 'negative' outcome.
"Even in the easiest mode, one single soldier detecting you, sounds the alarm, calls down reinforcements ... in short, the hole mayhem is dropped down on one single player, and there is no way of recovering from that.
You run away, if you can (having to wait for a looong period of time for the cooldown) or you die. No other option."
https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthrea...in-arcade-mode
I was hoping this had to do with the early beta alone, and would be a 'balancing issue' which could be fixed on release, or thereafter. I was wrong.
Here's the main complain:
Every stealth-based solo adventuring ends up in a 'detection' (which is perfectly fine! It's a game-mechanic), but then, the enemy does not disengage. At all. Unless, you are successfully fleeing the area (Good luck with that on harder difficulty. All that 'flower picking', the 'bandages' and syringes cannot help you while drones and the helicopter gunners are having their kind of fun with you, slow meatball, soft target).
One quick example.
Player is trying to get from A to B, cautiously avoiding NPCs and Drones.
Eventually the player is detected (again, absolutely fine).
He can hear a helicopter on it's way.
Player goes prone.
Uses camo.
Changes position while prone, still hiding.
Helicopter arrives ... and waits ...
... while the player is still hidden behind a large rock.
Stalemate.
Nobody moves for 10 minutes (I just wanted to see what happens).
Apparently, there is no cooldown on detection. Or maybe it was a bug (the NPC AI script did not communicate 'disengage' or something of that kind). Player could have been 'locked on', despite not being seen by the helicopter on approach. As John Carmack once said "CPU knows the player position all the time". Or - likely(?) - this is the intended game design(!). In co-op, players want something to 'do'. Patrolling Drones, Wolves, Helicopters are the juicy fruits for 2-4 players, to play with. The game 'expects' the player to always engage? Even, if you are a solo Recon guy, who has no chance to survive such an engagement?! Maybe my real-world recon mission memories are effing with my video game playstyle.
"It's you - not the game". Valid intercept, dear reader.
This can seem as just a banal example, but it highlights how the only way of ANY OF THESE ENGAGMENTS APPARENTLY HAVE TO END UP IN A FIGHT. As a solo Ghost, you are not allowed by the game, or able to stay stealthy, to disappear, to disengage.
Every game session then starts with high hopes. The player movement is fantastic. The exploration and adventuring on the island is great. Sound effects. Graphics rendering. Animations. Foliage. Visual effects ... all starts well - until, eventually, you are being engaged (one versus four or six or eight) and cannot escape.
"LOL! It's a shooter" I get that. But I MYSELF want to be the one to engage. Remember? "Ghost": Recon. Planning. Stealth. Tactical. Combat.
What worked so great in "Ghost Recon Wildlands" with Buddy NPCs (even, if you just 'parked' them and went on alone, for a while, doing recon), does not 'work' in GRB.
Ubisoft must be aware of this 'problem'. I have read in an official news statement that "Buddy" NPC's are being discussed and are apparently in the works for a future update. I hope it is not 'paid DLC', since this is about the core Single Player experience.
At this stage, sadly, Ghost Recon Breakpoint reminds me of ARMA in solo: spent half an hour walking around and then get shot from like nowhere. Start again.
It is still a great game. To be clear, I COULD adjust my playstyle to a more 'gamey' video game experience (all HUD icons 'on', gameplay settings on 'easy', etc...), but then this would be not a "Ghost Recon" game. It would be just yet another random video gamey shooter. Nothing I am interested in playing. Nothing really worth of the "Ghost Recon" brand name?
Member
I get where youre coming from, I have had that exact experience many times. After returning to it to check out the immersive mode update I was pleasantly surprised to discover some things. I am not sure if they have always been there but now that I know them it is nice. I also do not know exactly what the code is but these are my observations:
1) Enemies seem to have a few modes, unsuspecting (no detection, white spotting bar), alert (sounds/bodies, they will start patrolling the area, yellow spotting bar), alert+ (they get into cover and start looking for you, this triggers when they watch someone get killed, if you miss a shot, or if youre spotted and slip away, orange spotting bar, the turrets come online and can spot you), and engaging (visual contact on the player, firing, the only time the mortars are online)
2) Enemy lock on is a really big issue, they will know your position until you break contact and REALLY relocate. Generally if no AI had direct eye contact to you and you moved a significant amount they will enter a hunting pattern (alert+) in your last known area.
3) Disengaging requires no direct line of sight between you and any enemy (snipers and rocket launchers are the big issue here) as well as significant repositioning. (2 and 3 are sorta the same but whatever)
4) If you disengage and let the enemy hunt it out for a while they will return to unsuspecting and reinforcements will go away. I think what you were describing is a bug.
5) There is a very small window of time when you can be spotted and kill the guy that spotted you.
Its a little more nuanced and you have to play around with it but I managed to have some pretty good solo runs on Wolf encampments. One time I got full spotted by a sniper on the roof after assassinating my target and didnt kill the sniper quickly enough but after running down the building stairs the enemies were only on alert+, I sneaked out without incident. Earlier the same mission I had been spotted and engaged but after exiting the compound and re entering another way the enemies had reset to unsuspecting.
I think difficulty mode may have something to do with it, I am playing normal bc advanced was just too brutal for me solo.
Edit: also any flying drones are priority targets if you are engaged, unless you get out fast and break line of sight immediately they will fly to you and keep LOS on you while buzzing around in an annoyingly hard to hit pattern.
Member
Thank you first of all for reading through my wall of text and thanks double for adding your own thoughts and experience.
Indeed, the 'first guy' detecting you seems to have an intentional 'reaction cooldown'; a way more elegant way then Metal Gear Solid V has done ("Huh? Exclamation mark! Slomo!").
There ARE many things to like, even in solo, I would agree. The sound cues for HUD-less play are quite excellent. I also play in 'real' Home Theater Surround Sound (not headphones). The only HUD icon I have to have is called "Detect/Focus"(?) which tells me a drone above me is patrolling in the area, coming closer. SOME of my 'runs' are more successful. Just earlier today I was able to infiltrate an emeny site during daytime (6-8 guys patrolling around my target) and accomplish my story objective, while getting out alive.
It is not always bad, in solo.
This, of course, was made by design, by the developers and level designers. These are the kind of 'alternative gameplay' options, I am looking for, attempting to play the game more like a puzzle game, I have to solve, while by myself. I am okay with dying many times, as long as there IS an option to succeed. Part of the fun is to figure out, how to do the mission differently, more successfully. My 'frustration' is not around that. That is actually what I am looking for in this game and why I often replay single missions, after I have 'solved' them once.
I also do not mind a fight. But, even with scouting and drone recon, the fights and escalation seems unpredictable? At least, to me, at the moment. I take out the first guy, thinking, I am safe from LoS, and a second guy just may have 'heard' something or seen something, that very second (weapon silencers - why have them?). And suddenly everyone runs or 'respawns' in seconds around me, even if I have left already the immediate area. All happens way too quickly for my taste.
It feels very different from my GR Wildlands experience. But, it is also a different game. I get that.
Maybe, it is 'my brain', that just expects the 'humanly possible' instead the 'game does it's thing'. In 'my world' enemies STILL would have to search around the corners ("did he go left or right? Form up. Peak. Move. Stop. Move."), instead crying 'foul' and flash-mobbing me instantly from all corners. I just want a chance.
While I would not doubt that NPCs have each their own Line of Sight, I do suspect that their pattern involves a much higher emphasis on "search area circle" instead "search spot of fuzzy noise five corners ahead = be cautious turning around EACH corner"). Again - without knowing - I suspect, there seems do be a game, balanced for co-op combat mayhem, instead of "I go = you go. I tread careful = NPC treads careful").
But, then again, it's a 'video game'. Enemy NPCs are there to GET shot. I cannot expect any game AI to FULLY (dynamically) adjust and understand what I, as one random player out of millions, am trying to do. I HAVE to adjust to the existing game and game mechanics instead and 'pretend' to play like Sam Fisher, instead BEING Sam Fisher.
Member
Yeah, it would be wonderful to have that level of detail. You also mention the respawning thing which does happen sometimes and is super dumb and annoying, pretty much guaranteed death. The enemy searching is 100% search this area rather than dynamically peek and clear.
As for the escalation, it just happens very quickly. Generally a suppressed smg or handgun is completely silent (anything else still makes a decent bubble of noise), but if one guy hears something and heads to check it out... well if youre not on top of that immediately hes going to spot you and instantly put the entire base in engaging mode. Its also worth noting that they can hear footsteps, so crouch walking is pretty important if you are close to someone.
Im not saying that there arent problems, there definitely are. It would be amazing for the AI to really behave like you describe, unfortunately I do not know of any game that does this right now. I just wanted to point out that when you do learn the systems and adapt to them you can have a pretty good time. If its worth it to you to learn and adapt then youll have a great time, but I totally understand if you dont want to put that much effort into a game with as many problems as this game.
I personally get super frustrated when the game forces me into a playstyle. Certain missions will force me to be a gunner on a truck and essentially play a rail shooter. Others sometimes make me defend an objective while enemies walk down a linear corridor and I play whack a mole with their heads. And then theres the mission that forces you to fight a behemoth, which by the way is nearly impossible solo. While I understand the idea behind these missions (break up the repetitive core gameplay with some variety), they just really take away player agency and force you into a pretty much linear scenario.
So there is a lot to dislike about this game, and enemy AI can certainly use some improvements. Im just here to say that it is possible to learn it and have a good time as a solo player. I enjoy the game enough now that I have things figured out that I can push past the frustrating parts.
Also part of this could be that I only played a 2 hour demo of wildlands and as such do not really have any expectations going into this game.
Senior Member
I haven't ran into this problem yet I feel more as if the AI is too forgiving in detection. I play on hardcore mode and either yours or mine might be glitches because when I am detected I feel as if though they all rush to the last known location, where I was spotted, but they don't exactly automatically know where I'm at, I play on Echelon and Panther that might be another deal breaker IDK. But I do agree though stealth is done a lot better in a lot of other games, but the cool down does not make them go on search party's or maintain any immersion on being hunted, but instead they all just hide, which is fine, but right after it goes back to normal. For me it's more immersive if the would Wolves would start to hunt me like Unidad did back in Wildlands because thats the lore of Breakpoint you are behind enemy lines and the Wolves the spec ops of the island are on the search for you therefore it would make more sense for them to rush to your last known location. But I see your point though, you're ideas are not invalid, it's just I have different experience with Breakpoint where I get bored due to the land being so barren and lack of consequences to my actions.Originally Posted by Adam__Beckett Go to original postThank you first of all for reading through my wall of text and thanks double for adding your own thoughts and experience.
Indeed, the 'first guy' detecting you seems to have an intentional 'reaction cooldown'; a way more elegant way then Metal Gear Solid V has done ("Huh? Exclamation mark! Slomo!").
There ARE many things to like, even in solo, I would agree. The sound cues for HUD-less play are quite excellent. I also play in 'real' Home Theater Surround Sound (not headphones). The only HUD icon I have to have is called "inspect"(?) which tells me a drone above me is patrolling in the area, coming closer. SOME of my 'runs' are more successful. Just earlier today I was able to infiltrate an emeny site during daytime (6-8 guys patrolling around my target) and accomplish my story objective, while getting out alive.
It is not always bad, in solo.
This, of course, was made by design, by the developers and level designers. These are the kind of 'alternative gameplay' options, I am looking for, attempting to play the game more like a puzzle game, I have to solve, while by myself. I am okay with dying many times, as long as there IS an option to succeed. Part of the fun is to figure out, how to do the mission differently, more successfully. My 'frustration' is not around that. That is actually what I am looking for in this game and why I often replay single missions, after I have 'solved' them once.
I also do not mind a fight. But, even with scouting and drone recon, the fights and escalation seems unpredictable? At least, to me, at the moment. I take out the first guy, thinking, I am safe from LoS, and a second guy just may have 'heard' something or seen something, that very second (weapon silencers - why have them?). And suddenly everyone runs or 'respawns' in seconds around me, even if I have left already the immediate area. All happens way too quickly for my taste.
It feels very different from my GR Wildlands experience. But, it is also a different game. I get that.
Maybe, it is 'my brain', that just expects the 'humanly possible' instead the 'game does it's thing'. In 'my world' enemies STILL would have to search around the corners ("did he go left or right? Form up. Peak. Move. Stop. Move."), instead crying 'foul' and flash-mobbing me instantly from all corners. I just want a chance.
While I would not doubt that NPCs have each their own Line of Sight, I do suspect that their pattern involves a much higher emphasis on "search area circle" instead "search spot of fuzzy noise five corners ahead = be cautious turning around EACH corner"). Again - without knowing - I suspect, there seems do be a game, balanced for co-op combat mayhem, instead of "I go = you go. I tread careful = NPC treads careful").
But, then again, it's a 'video game'. Enemy NPCs are there to GET shot. I cannot expect any game AI to FULLY (dynamically) adjust and understand what I, as one random player out of millions, am trying to do. I HAVE to adjust to the existing game and game mechanics instead and 'pretend' to play like Sam Fisher, instead BEING Sam Fisher.
Member
I clearly have not played enough of the game, to form a more valid opinion.
The past couple days, my own experience is way more inconsitent then my initial 'complains'. Especially, unlocking some perks, which offer the player to adjust to their playstyle, DO change the experience (low detection rate, more health, etc ...) a fair bit.
Sometimes, it DOES feel TOO EASY! (Regular) Enemies (not Wolves), when engaging seem way too forgiving (again - could just be the difficulty level, not the AI. I cannot tell in a scientific way. Nor am I eager to replay a sequence 50 times to find out). Their animations seem deliberately forgiving to make them look 'clumsy' when engaging me (so I have more time to aim and shoot, on top of the initial 'nerf' they have). My 1 headshot kills them. THEY only shoot wildely inacurrate. I manage more frequently to 'clean areas' one-by-one, picking up the corpses and pilling them up in an unpatrolled corner.
There are so many settings a player can choose from, that every single players experience will differ alone on that base (Difficulty levels, HUD adjustments, playstyle, upgrades, temporary buffs, etc...). The 2.0.0 Patch (I only played the current 2.0.0 and the Beta before) DOES seem to offer far more adjustments, which particularly are tailored for a more "Ghost Recon" playstyle and allow to avoid the 'run-and-gun' fast paced action others still can play, if they like to.
On other occations, it still does end up in a flash-mob and there are long drawn moments, where you just know, the game decided, you have to die. But those are now occuring less, in my play sessions.
Either my initial thoughts are just plain wrong or I have learned more on how to play the game, to have a better experience, mouthing off too early.
Should (and will, if I can) most likely delete this thread altogether in the next hours to save others from wasting precious lifetime, reading non-sensical drivel. Thanks, for your reply, guys!
