Heavy gb change | Forums

[Vakris_One]

I did not had the figures in mind about BP's gb vulnerability but during this breach the moove felt less vulnerale than it was before.
The guy was maybe lagging. Anyway if it was 400ms gb vulnerable before then my bad. I did not play a lot since last patch and only had this Breach in mind where this BP got me with that many times while i am pretty sure i was attempting my GB on a timing which use to work before.

Fair enough. BP's vulnerability was 400ms before. From my experiences I haven't noticed a significant change either positive or negative about being GBed out of Bullwark slash. It feels pretty much the same.

Okay so what would you do with Glad toe stab ? Would you like the moove to be deleted from the game ? If not then accept it as a good tool or the best ganking tool despite the nerf.
Ganking is the purpose of the moove, it is strong, sure, but outside of great 1v1 abilities and gank what else does Glad has going for him ? He is pretty bad at anything else which matter in 4s.
You was also the first to say "RIP Glad as far as competitive plays goes" after his Toe stab/haymaker nerf.

A couple of points to address here:

1) Pointing out that a move is the strongest move of its type in the game by far doesn't mean I want it deleted. The notion that a move can only exist as an overtuned tool or not exist at all is foolish. What I would like is for it to be balanced properly. For example, I don't think toe stab should revenge lock for as long as it does. It shouldn't deny revenge activation for so long that it allows an external ally's heavy to land first. It should function like any other bash in this regard and allow the player being hit with it to activate revenge immediately after the bash. Toe stab already guarrantees the Glad direct damage while also being a bash all in one, that's strong enough as is. Considering also the fact that toe stab has no damage reduction applied to the opponent being ganked whereas other bashes do.

There are also other schools of thought from competitive level players that toe stab should feed more revenge than it does currently. I don't think all of these things need to be nerfed about toe stab but I do think that at least one of these things needs to be balanced out better to stop the move from being such a death sentence 90% of the time.

2) "outside of great 1v1 abilities and gank what else does Glad has going for him?" - I mean even if it stops there for Glad, that's already pretty good. Over half the cast don't even have that much. But Glad is also good at rotations and back caps because of his speed, has a decent chase tool and good peel and can absolutely destroy anyone that they catch out of lock. He is not a weak character. Not in 1s and not in 4s.

3) The context of that statement was made in relation to how meta Gladiator's toe stab had become in competitive dominion. Everybody in the comp scene wanted to see that move toned down and some of us collectively labelled it as "RIP Glad" because of how the devs tend to nerf things into the ground more often than balance them out. That was the initial reaction from the comp scene to seeing toe stab's nerf in the patch notes. Having hands on experience with Glad in scrims and tourneys after the toe stab/haymaker changes has since confirmed that the move is still incredibly strong.

Musha was already able to display his offense correctly on console. I've Always agree his dmg should be look at, but they got nerf too far imo in the TG version. It has Nothing to do with "do i prefer to attack or to wait for my busted dmg", TG version feels like i can attack as i use to do before but with less dmg and i hope those TG changes if they go live will not be an excuse for the devs to just skip many deserved Rework (Musha being one).

So are you saying you would prefer having an Aramusha with the damage numbers of the live game but with the ability to land more attacks like in the TG?

Sure Musha was not able to do anything on PC, i know it and there i agree he got some benefits from TG. As you may know because of the discord, my opinion is TG changes are good for PC, not for console. Simple as that.

I can understand your reasoning for your opinion about console. I still disagree and I think the changes are better for both platforms.

[Knight_Raime]

I bother to make such a statement because there are not point to say those 2 "Particularly" benefits from TG. Their benefit is the same as most others as the we talk about general game changes.

Then, same question than i ask to Vakris, what would you do with Toe stab ? Because talking about it as a problem while nerfing it again would almost remoove the utility of the moove is not a solution.

Sorry but read your own words about musha and tells me what is usefull in that ? Not sure i just decide to ignore Something.
If my opinion is shocking you you should maybe just chill out about what is only a video game.

On console yes i do prefer the current Musha for the simple Reason than there are no real benefits big enough to compensate the dmg nerf on console.

Alright, lets make this easier to understand. I'm not saying that TG changes "fixes" said heros like Aramusha. The goal wasn't to improve the hero kits specifically but rather to improve offense as a whole. However, I note that heros Like Mushu particularly benefit from it because their theoretical offense is actually usable with it. So yes, technically speaking your argument is correct. But I disagree with your mindset that he's not better/benefitted strictly because all heros benefitted. The fact that I as a BP player can no longer bullwark flip his deadly feint mix up on a single timing anymore against TG Mushu is a big deal. The fact that I can't easy back out of his deadly feint/chain mix ups anymore is a big deal. Even if the hero's overall effectiveness is roughly the same I feel his moment to moment gameplay significantly changed. And it's worth noting imo.


Toe stab currently revenge locks for far too long. If it were changed to how other bashes revenge lock that would go a long way to making it far less of an obnoxious tool. It would still be mega safe easy damage that lets anyone gank easy due to how long the stun from toe stab lasts. But at least it wouldn't severely screw over someone who's surviving long enough to actually get revenge.


"It's only a video game" is not a healthy response. I care about the state of the game. Someone like Vakris arguably cares a lot more than I do. It's okay for you to care less about what's happening with the game. It should be okay for others like myself to be passionate about where this game ends up. And you cannot pull the console card on me. A vast majority of my time played with the game comes from Xbox which is considered the worst platform performance wise. Mushu was still a joke there i'd know because I played him there a lot. It would be more accurate to say that at whatever skill bracket you currently reside in the benefits of his TG changes are not immediately apparent. But to blanket state that the TG changes didn't significantly help Aramusha on console is just ignorant and factually incorrect.

[EvoX.]

I am not super versed in Conq so maybe Duke can chime in if he's still around. But afaik the only thing that Conq lost from this change is a specific bait trick that ends up hitting an enemy with an opening top heavy. Which was nice sure but I don't think super important to him. Just one less option select in his kit of option selects. his chain heavies were already 100ms afaik so yes the changes to heavies was strictly a nerf to him. But I think overall with the changes on TG he's better off and doesn't need compensation for this loss. (still would like to see him get regular feinting with his heavy though.)

Centurion isn't majorly effected either. As he has soft feint into GB on his heavies. If you input this and you're GBed during said input it acts as a CGB. (this goes with all soft feints to GB.) Infact I think these vulnerability numbers are less than what they increased them to when his TG was up. (but I can't recall 100%.)

Conqueror lost every single option that included letting go of a heavy. Raw heavy on both parry timings, charged heavy on light parry and releasing on heavy (which counters light, heavy and feint to GB), charged heavy on heavy parry and releasing on feint smoke, heavy softfeinted to bash, heavy from FB, he can now be GB'd on reaction to him starting to charge a heavy unless he does his SB. His option selects got hit so hard with two patches it's unreal, and it's clear people who don't play the character think everything is the same for him. In my opinion, he is officially a worse BP.

Centurion isn't majorly affected, are you kidding? Before the GB bounced off, you received no damage while you dealt 25 damage. Now the GB goes through, you receive 30-120 damage while you deal nothing, so yeah, I'd say that definitely qualifies as majorly affected. He's now one of the few heroes without an option select, and softfeinting to GB is unreliable as it only acts as a CGB if you've inputted it before you get hit with the GB, unlike a regular CGB. Also, how can these vulnerability numbers be lower than his rework's? Obviously he didn't have 500ms vulnerability on his opening heavies. Hell, it's the opposite - the rework's were lower than the current ones, sitting at 400ms rather than 433. He's almost unplayable currently, the only thing keeping him from being literally and absolutely unplayable is his gank. I don't think For Honor's had a hero that has ever been this weak.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Conqueror lost every single option that included letting go of a heavy. Raw heavy on both parry timings, charged heavy on light parry and releasing on heavy (which counters light, heavy and feint to GB), charged heavy on heavy parry and releasing on feint smoke, heavy softfeinted to bash, heavy from FB, he can now be GB'd on reaction to him starting to charge a heavy unless he does his SB. His option selects got hit so hard with two patches it's unreal, and it's clear people who don't play the character think everything is the same for him. In my opinion, he is officially a worse BP.

Centurion isn't majorly affected, are you kidding? Before the GB bounced off, you received no damage while you dealt 25 damage. Now the GB goes through, you receive 30-120 damage while you deal nothing, so yeah, I'd say that definitely qualifies as majorly affected. He's now one of the few heroes without an option select, and softfeinting to GB is unreliable as it only acts as a CGB if you've inputted it before you get hit with the GB, unlike a regular CGB. Also, how can these vulnerability numbers be lower than his rework's? Obviously he didn't have 500ms vulnerability on his opening heavies. Hell, it's the opposite - the rework's were lower than the current ones, sitting at 400ms rather than 433. He's almost unplayable currently, the only thing keeping him from being literally and absolutely unplayable is his gank. I don't think For Honor's had a hero that has ever been this weak.

He had a competition: pre-rework Conqueror when his superior block was removed. But yes, he is definetely extremely weak now.

[Knight_Raime]

Conqueror lost every single option that included letting go of a heavy. Raw heavy on both parry timings, charged heavy on light parry and releasing on heavy (which counters light, heavy and feint to GB), charged heavy on heavy parry and releasing on feint smoke, heavy softfeinted to bash, heavy from FB, he can now be GB'd on reaction to him starting to charge a heavy unless he does his SB. His option selects got hit so hard with two patches it's unreal, and it's clear people who don't play the character think everything is the same for him. In my opinion, he is officially a worse BP.

Centurion isn't majorly affected, are you kidding? Before the GB bounced off, you received no damage while you dealt 25 damage. Now the GB goes through, you receive 30-120 damage while you deal nothing, so yeah, I'd say that definitely qualifies as majorly affected. He's now one of the few heroes without an option select, and softfeinting to GB is unreliable as it only acts as a CGB if you've inputted it before you get hit with the GB, unlike a regular CGB. Also, how can these vulnerability numbers be lower than his rework's? Obviously he didn't have 500ms vulnerability on his opening heavies. Hell, it's the opposite - the rework's were lower than the current ones, sitting at 400ms rather than 433. He's almost unplayable currently, the only thing keeping him from being literally and absolutely unplayable is his gank. I don't think For Honor's had a hero that has ever been this weak.

I would say it is indeed accurate that his charge based option selects are no longer a thing. Which I already knew about. As far as his option select(s) go with his raw heavy I'm not entirely convinced he lost all of them. In particular I think his superior block of mistiming your parry is still serviceable. Worse for sure, but still usable. I think the problem is less the GB vuln changes and more so Conq lacking basic feint capability. I never claimed that everything is the same for him still. And I did admit in my comment about conq in this thread that i'm not super versed in the hero. So you really don't need to be digging at me like that.


I'm perfectly well aware of what his heavies having low vulnerability used to do for him. And yes, you have to input it before you're hit with a GB. I'm sorry that you seem to believe that it's worthless just because you cant do it on reaction. The fact that he has it means it is indeed an option select. And hell have another anyway once his rework drops with his zone feint. So i'm not worried about this regardless. My comment about the vuln being less than TG was specifically considering what the timing is like in regards to his charged heavies. As in I believe the window from going from raw to charged will be shorter than what it was on TG with him. This is more important to me than raw heavy vulnerability. Kind of like conq I feel the impact feels more pronounced here because Cent has an awkward wind up feint making it less usable for feint baiting.

[EvoX.]

I would say it is indeed accurate that his charge based option selects are no longer a thing. Which I already knew about. As far as his option select(s) go with his raw heavy I'm not entirely convinced he lost all of them. In particular I think his superior block of mistiming your parry is still serviceable. Worse for sure, but still usable. I think the problem is less the GB vuln changes and more so Conq lacking basic feint capability. I never claimed that everything is the same for him still. And I did admit in my comment about conq in this thread that i'm not super versed in the hero. So you really don't need to be digging at me like that.


I'm perfectly well aware of what his heavies having low vulnerability used to do for him. And yes, you have to input it before you're hit with a GB. I'm sorry that you seem to believe that it's worthless just because you cant do it on reaction. The fact that he has it means it is indeed an option select. And hell have another anyway once his rework drops with his zone feint. So i'm not worried about this regardless. My comment about the vuln being less than TG was specifically considering what the timing is like in regards to his charged heavies. As in I believe the window from going from raw to charged will be shorter than what it was on TG with him. This is more important to me than raw heavy vulnerability. Kind of like conq I feel the impact feels more pronounced here because Cent has an awkward wind up feint making it less usable for feint baiting.

Whole lotta' written just to say you're wrong on both points. Did Conqueror lose only a ''specific bait trick'' ? No. Was Centurion majorly affected by the vulnerability increase? Yes.

And you're still wrong about the vulnerability when compared to charged vs non-charged, since it was always a maximum of 400ms for fully charged. So the charged heavy being faster is completely meaningless because of the static vulnerability, meaning the opponent either bounces off and you get the pin, whether 900ms rework or 1000ms live, or he doesn't and you get GB'd. No difference.

[Knight_Raime]

Whole lotta' written just to say you're wrong on both points. Did Conqueror lose only a ''specific bait trick'' ? No. Was Centurion majorly affected by the vulnerability increase? Yes.

And you're still wrong about the vulnerability when compared to charged vs non-charged, since it was always a maximum of 400ms for fully charged. So the charged heavy being faster is completely meaningless because of the static vulnerability, meaning the opponent either bounces off and you get the pin, whether 900ms rework or 1000ms live, or he doesn't and you get GB'd. No difference.

-shrug-
If you're that adamant that Conq is now a dumpster character why don't you go ask Clutch on stream again so you can get laughed out of chat.

[EvoX.]

-shrug-
If you're that adamant that Conq is now a dumpster character why don't you go ask Clutch on stream again so you can get laughed out of chat.

Never said anything resembling Conq being a dumpster character, put words in someone else's mouth. I'm done here.

[Siegfried-Z]

A couple of points to address here:

1) Pointing out that a move is the strongest move of its type in the game by far doesn't mean I want it deleted. The notion that a move can only exist as an overtuned tool or not exist at all is foolish. What I would like is for it to be balanced properly. For example, I don't think toe stab should revenge lock for as long as it does. It shouldn't deny revenge activation for so long that it allows an external ally's heavy to land first. It should function like any other bash in this regard and allow the player being hit with it to activate revenge immediately after the bash. Toe stab already guarrantees the Glad direct damage while also being a bash all in one, that's strong enough as is. Considering also the fact that toe stab has no damage reduction applied to the opponent being ganked whereas other bashes do.

There are also other schools of thought from competitive level players that toe stab should feed more revenge than it does currently. I don't think all of these things need to be nerfed about toe stab but I do think that at least one of these things needs to be balanced out better to stop the move from being such a death sentence 90% of the time.

2) "outside of great 1v1 abilities and gank what else does Glad has going for him?" - I mean even if it stops there for Glad, that's already pretty good. Over half the cast don't even have that much. But Glad is also good at rotations and back caps because of his speed, has a decent chase tool and good peel and can absolutely destroy anyone that they catch out of lock. He is not a weak character. Not in 1s and not in 4s.

3) The context of that statement was made in relation to how meta Gladiator's toe stab had become in competitive dominion. Everybody in the comp scene wanted to see that move toned down and some of us collectively labelled it as "RIP Glad" because of how the devs tend to nerf things into the ground more often than balance them out. That was the initial reaction from the comp scene to seeing toe stab's nerf in the patch notes. Having hands on experience with Glad in scrims and tourneys after the toe stab/haymaker changes has since confirmed that the move is still incredibly strong.

So are you saying you would prefer having an Aramusha with the damage numbers of the live game but with the ability to land more attacks like in the TG?

I can understand your reasoning for your opinion about console. I still disagree and I think the changes are better for both platforms.

I can agree with those suggestion regarding Glad toe stab. Moove that lock revenge are something pretty annoying.

My problem with Glad effectiveness in 4s is that being good at Ganking means you have to stick with a mate to display all your potential which means that you can't really do it if MM is bad and your team is already at a disadvantage from the beginning. Saddly it is a pretty common thing that solo queue MM is horrible.
Another thing i've realize during my 256reps mostly done in solo queue is that playing a hero bad at cleaning (as glad) often puts myself at a big disadvantage because most players have no game sense and 90% of the times if i Don't play the midder role no one is doing it. That's why my best performance are often with Musha and Kensei, or Shaman as well but because of how insane she is in her zone keeper role.
The 3 others heros i play , Glad, Shaolin and Valk i have lower performances with them despite often outplaying my opponents in terms of fighting skills because their kit does not allow me to compasate for the unbalance mm and my mates overall lack of game sense.
Glad is even the hero i have the worst perf with among my 6 mains.. but i gess this is because of all the reps i've done with him when he use to be so trash.

About Musha, no of course i Don't want to have the TG Musha but with his current dmg, he would be op and i Don't want Musha as a hero considered like this. Just saying his dmg got hurt harder than most others heros.. 11dmg Deadly feint and side heavy being like 22dmg ? Don't exactly remember. It is too hard imo now that his GB vulnerability got fixed.

I do respect your opinion about TG, i like to discuss with people doesn't matter if they do agree or not with me when they are able to do it politely.

Alright, lets make this easier to understand. I'm not saying that TG changes "fixes" said heros like Aramusha. The goal wasn't to improve the hero kits specifically but rather to improve offense as a whole. However, I note that heros Like Mushu particularly benefit from it because their theoretical offense is actually usable with it. So yes, technically speaking your argument is correct. But I disagree with your mindset that he's not better/benefitted strictly because all heros benefitted. The fact that I as a BP player can no longer bullwark flip his deadly feint mix up on a single timing anymore against TG Mushu is a big deal. The fact that I can't easy back out of his deadly feint/chain mix ups anymore is a big deal. Even if the hero's overall effectiveness is roughly the same I feel his moment to moment gameplay significantly changed. And it's worth noting imo.


Toe stab currently revenge locks for far too long. If it were changed to how other bashes revenge lock that would go a long way to making it far less of an obnoxious tool. It would still be mega safe easy damage that lets anyone gank easy due to how long the stun from toe stab lasts. But at least it wouldn't severely screw over someone who's surviving long enough to actually get revenge.


"It's only a video game" is not a healthy response. I care about the state of the game. Someone like Vakris arguably cares a lot more than I do. It's okay for you to care less about what's happening with the game. It should be okay for others like myself to be passionate about where this game ends up. And you cannot pull the console card on me. A vast majority of my time played with the game comes from Xbox which is considered the worst platform performance wise. Mushu was still a joke there i'd know because I played him there a lot. It would be more accurate to say that at whatever skill bracket you currently reside in the benefits of his TG changes are not immediately apparent. But to blanket state that the TG changes didn't significantly help Aramusha on console is just ignorant and factually incorrect.

As said to vakris i can agree with a revenge lock change on Glad toe stab.

I did not say Musha got Nothing from TG, my statement is this is not significant enough to compensate the big dmg nerf and gb vulnerability one on a platefrom where he use to be able to display his mix up already.
This is not about "playing the console card" on you as this wording imply there are no reasons to speak differentely about the 2 plateforms… it would be foolish to assume the 2 version of the game are even close to be similar.

So it is not ignorant to have an overall look about what does Musha gain and what does he lost before saying he is not in a "win" situation. Using the word "factually" also imply there is a 100% verified answer to that question which is not the case.

I do respect your interest and passion for the game, mine use to be as strong and recently start to decrease like 2 months ago. My point is just to say we can stay cool and Pleasant anyway

It is just too bad when things goes bad as you and Evo just above or me and you know who.. it is not Worth it.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I don't really play Aramusha, but what I think would help him greatly is a Light-Light and Heavy-Light chain, which lets you finish your Tempest chain with a same side light finisher. If it gets high-ish damage and maybe enchanced property, it will give one more tool for the Aramusha which lets him use his Tempest chain better. It might be enough to compensate his lost properties with the TG changes, but I need some experts' opinion on it.

Conqueror feels terrible to use, even if I am not on the receiving end. I fought one with my Black Prior today, he was decent, yet I totally destroyed him. His bashes deal far less damage than mine, his fullblock is useless against my attacks, and with the Bulwark Counter catching those side dodge shieldbashes (which can be punished with a reaction dodge+guardbreak), he has basically nothing. He is even easy now with my Peacekeeper, his only remaining tool against my most basic dagger cancel mixup is his zone optionselect, which is punished hardly if I read it, while I get double of the shieldbash's damage for a succesful dodge attack (let alone a guardbreak on the side dodges). He just feels thrash now, I would even dare to say he is the weakest of the heavies now. They just feel helpless without those optionselects, most heroes now have more than him.