Heavy gb change | Forums

[The_Wanderer.]

I like this new change and how it standardizes all of the heroes. But some heroes like Ara. Cent and conq, kinda need this. In my opinion the heroes that depended on this should receive a little compensation.

Edit: Conq of all the heroes that received changes was hit the hardest and I feel he should get something in return.

[Beyond_Paradox]

Glad is arguably one of the best duelist in the game and a damn strong Ganker. Add to that the how well he benefited in the recent TG which will likely come to live soon. Sorry but no, he is in a very good position and no compensation is needed.
Aramusha still has his burst damage heavies. Recent TG benefited him very well so no need for more.
The only one that should be helped is Conq. He currently suffer from a massive GB window. He should be able to normal feint like others in return of such nerf.

[Siegfried-Z]

Conq got hit really hard with this change yes. He is still very effective but is more than ever a defensive hero reliying on cheap dmg now.

In another hand BP Bullwark is a lot stronger.

Glad is arguably one of the best duelist in the game and a damn strong Ganker. Add to that the how well he benefited in the recent TG which will likely come to live soon. Sorry but no, he is in a very good position and no compensation is needed.
Aramusha still has his burst damage heavies. Recent TG benefited him very well so no need for more.
The only one that should be helped is Conq. He currently suffer from a massive GB window. He should be able to normal feint like others in return of such nerf.

While Glad is still fine because of his zone being a great offensive and defensive tool, TG change arent a bigger benefit for him than most others.

And please explain how Ara changes in TG benefits him ? His dmg value got wreck to hell.

[Knight_Raime]

I like this new change and how it standardizes all of the heroes. But some heroes like Ara. Cent and conq, kinda need this. In my opinion the heroes that depended on this should receive a little compensation.

Edit: Conq of all the heroes that received changes was hit the hardest and I feel he should get something in return.

I am not super versed in Conq so maybe Duke can chime in if he's still around. But afaik the only thing that Conq lost from this change is a specific bait trick that ends up hitting an enemy with an opening top heavy. Which was nice sure but I don't think super important to him. Just one less option select in his kit of option selects. his chain heavies were already 100ms afaik so yes the changes to heavies was strictly a nerf to him. But I think overall with the changes on TG he's better off and doesn't need compensation for this loss. (still would like to see him get regular feinting with his heavy though.)

Centurion isn't majorly effected either. As he has soft feint into GB on his heavies. If you input this and you're GBed during said input it acts as a CGB. (this goes with all soft feints to GB.) Infact I think these vulnerability numbers are less than what they increased them to when his TG was up. (but I can't recall 100%.)

Aramusha is fine as well in the context of TG changes. So i'd have to disagree.

Conq got hit really hard with this change yes. He is still very effective but is more than ever a defensive hero reliying on cheap dmg now.

In another hand BP Bullwark is a lot stronger.



While Glad is still fine because of his zone being a great offensive and defensive tool, TG change arent a bigger benefit for him than most others.

And please explain how Ara changes in TG benefits him ? His dmg value got wreck to hell.

I'm not sure how BP's bullwark slash benefits from the heavy vulnerability changes. It wasn't an easy thing to feint GB already. But it didn't have absurdly low vulnerabilities either. It's also a chain starter and not a chain finisher. So if anything it would've been a nerf if it had low vulnerability.

Glad was buffed in TG due to his lights not being as telegraphed as most lights are. Them with the animation changes and delayed indicator makes them hard to react to. More so on that his skewer is a legitimate mix up now because of the feint changes and animation changes. He's still got his absurdly safe zone and toe stab that both benefit from haymaker. And his toe stab in it of itself is still busted. Glad didn't get hugely buffed like some other assassins. But he is a fair bit stronger on TG. As even with lower damage he still has some of the strongest OOL/ OOL/OOS punishes.

Aramusha benefitted from TG a good amount as well. While you can just EZ dodge out of combo lights if deadly feints are in the mix you can't reaction avoid them. And they're proper unreactable on their own now that they display as max delayed 400ms lights. His ring the bell is actually a soft mix up now because of animation changes and slightly faster attack speeds. And his damage all though nerfed is still pretty respectable. He does still not have a solid way in. But this is less impactful with TG in mind.

[Siegfried-Z]

I'm not sure how BP's bullwark slash benefits from the heavy vulnerability changes. It wasn't an easy thing to feint GB already. But it didn't have absurdly low vulnerabilities either. It's also a chain starter and not a chain finisher. So if anything it would've been a nerf if it had low vulnerability.

Glad was buffed in TG due to his lights not being as telegraphed as most lights are. Them with the animation changes and delayed indicator makes them hard to react to. More so on that his skewer is a legitimate mix up now because of the feint changes and animation changes. He's still got his absurdly safe zone and toe stab that both benefit from haymaker. And his toe stab in it of itself is still busted. Glad didn't get hugely buffed like some other assassins. But he is a fair bit stronger on TG. As even with lower damage he still has some of the strongest OOL/ OOL/OOS punishes.

Aramusha benefitted from TG a good amount as well. While you can just EZ dodge out of combo lights if deadly feints are in the mix you can't reaction avoid them. And they're proper unreactable on their own now that they display as max delayed 400ms lights. His ring the bell is actually a soft mix up now because of animation changes and slightly faster attack speeds. And his damage all though nerfed is still pretty respectable. He does still not have a solid way in. But this is less impactful with TG in mind.

BP bullwark slash was very easy to GB during the start up of the moove, thats why it was a dangerous choice for BP to just stand in front of his ennemy while in Bullwark while now it is safer and can even be a bait tool if not abused as the gb vulnerability is not low as Conq pre patch, sure.

During my 1st breach after those changes i forgot the GB vulnerability standardization and got hitten by his slash many Times while i would got a GB before the patch in the same situation.
Once you keep this in mind it is not a big deal to deal with, but this GB vulnerability change was a buff for him unlike many others.

Glad speaking, yes TG gave him a few advantages but we are speaking about the same things which benefit most heros.
His zone and punish are still really strong sure but i disagree about his toe stab still being busted.
This a a decent ganking tool to finish up an opponent but after the revenge and haymaker changes, just a good tool.

Ara is nothing but nerfed with TG.. and now with his GB vulnerability being in line with others, dmg on his deadly feint and side heavy got nerfed really hard. I would rather play the current Musha.
Things being harder to react to and mix up slighly improved being an overall buff.

[Vakris_One]

BP bullwark slash was very easy to GB during the start up of the moove, thats why it was a dangerous choice for BP to just stand in front of his ennemy while in Bullwark while now it is safer and can even be a bait tool if not abused as the gb vulnerability is not low as Conq pre patch, sure.

During my 1st breach after those changes i forgot the GB vulnerability standardization and got hitten by his slash many Times while i would got a GB before the patch in the same situation.
Once you keep this in mind it is not a big deal to deal with, but this GB vulnerability change was a buff for him unlike many others.

How can it be a buff for BP's bullwark slash when his GB vulnerability was increased by a further 33ms? BP is one of the characters I play frequently and I have not noticed people's GBs failing to catch my Bullwark slash at the same timing they did before the patch.

Glad speaking, yes TG gave him a few advantages but we are speaking about the same things which benefit most heros.
His zone and punish are still really strong sure but i disagree about his toe stab still being busted.
This a a decent ganking tool to finish up an opponent but after the revenge and haymaker changes, just a good tool.

It's not just a good tool. Toe stab is the single strongest ganking tool in the game, both in the TG and in the live game. It even beats out Shaman's bite because of how long it revenge locks the opponent thus denying them revenge activation until after an ally's external heavy hits them. It's still the easiest and most abusable ganking tool in the entire game by far.

Ara is nothing but nerfed with TG.. and now with his GB vulnerability being in line with others, dmg on his deadly feint and side heavy got nerfed really hard. I would rather play the current Musha.
Things being harder to react to and mix up slighly improved being an overall buff.

His damage numbers in the TG matched what most other heroes did with their heavies and lights. His deadly feint infinite chain allowed him to bypass the defender's frame advantage by not allowing them to hit him first as he goes through his infinite light chain and his deadly feint game was properly unreactable unlike in the live game where people on PC who can react to 400ms indicators would shut Aramusha down hard.

The current Musha is busted in terms of his damage and the fact that he has no form of opener from neutral. The TG Musha is in much better shape in my opinion. I would take being able to actually attack and use my offense with something resembling normal damage numbers over not being able to use any of my lights and only waiting for guarranteed opportunities to score Omega busted damage.

[Knight_Raime]

BP bullwark slash was very easy to GB during the start up of the moove, thats why it was a dangerous choice for BP to just stand in front of his ennemy while in Bullwark while now it is safer and can even be a bait tool if not abused as the gb vulnerability is not low as Conq pre patch, sure.

During my 1st breach after those changes i forgot the GB vulnerability standardization and got hitten by his slash many Times while i would got a GB before the patch in the same situation.
Once you keep this in mind it is not a big deal to deal with, but this GB vulnerability change was a buff for him unlike many others.

Glad speaking, yes TG gave him a few advantages but we are speaking about the same things which benefit most heros.
His zone and punish are still really strong sure but i disagree about his toe stab still being busted.
This a a decent ganking tool to finish up an opponent but after the revenge and haymaker changes, just a good tool.

Ara is nothing but nerfed with TG.. and now with his GB vulnerability being in line with others, dmg on his deadly feint and side heavy got nerfed really hard. I would rather play the current Musha.
Things being harder to react to and mix up slighly improved being an overall buff.

BP's slash was never GBable on reaction before. Even if it made the window a frame shorter through standardization it's not going to be majorly impactful in moment to moment gameplay because you never feint to GB to deal with his slash mix ups. At best the GB would be gotten externally. BP's slash was not benefitted in any meaningful way.

Saying those changes benefitted other heros doesn't at all take away from my statement. So I don't know why you're even bothering to make such a statement. And Toe stab is absolutely busted still. Just because it's no longer doing insane damage with haymaker doesn't mean it's suddenly balanced. It's been outlined before why the move is busted and none of those factors have changed. So either you're not aware of why Toe stab is considered to be a broken move or you do know and you're just disagreeing to disagree.

Aight whatever. I pointed out how Mushu is now better on TG. And you're just going to ignore that. Wow. The fact that you're willing to keep a hero in a busted state over actual usable offense is just. I have no words. I'll just see myself out.

[Klingentaenz3r]

Conq got hit really hard with this change yes. He is still very effective but is more than ever a defensive hero reliying on cheap dmg now.

And please explain how Ara changes in TG benefits him ? His dmg value got wreck to hell.

Maybe as a fellow aramusha user I can explain it a bit from a different angle to understand why aramusha benefits from TG changes.

Ara had better use for his infinite chains in TG. His entire kit could be better utilized and molded to a better working version. Which means in total you gained more mixup options because they would work more seamingless together. The only issue was while lights were harder to parry heavies were not. But luckily in conjunction with the changes to feint into gb you could actually use that to lure out either a parry attempt and gb (hence condition your opponent) or safely use a barriage of the heavy infinite to get some chip damage in.

The overall damage nerf was okayish. Only the nerf to the deadly feints from 20 to 11 was a bit too much as those are his main real damage output if the opponent is sticking to blocking only (he needs some damage output to profit from the stamina changes otherwise he has to spend way too much to get some measly results and risks getting bumped into OOS). But besides dealing less damage on side heavy openers and of course on finishers he gained the advantage that top heavy and light damage was standardized with all other sides. Meaning even the deadly feint dealt the same damage top as the side one, so there the read on the deadly feint was on tg much harder since there was no preferable side to go to because of damage and top heavy finishers would yield the same punishes as sides. Mixed in some good cancels into blockades, backstep attacks, or dodge attacks I had quite a good time as aramusha in TG.

Overall the rule of thumb in testing ground was, if the character had the ability to dish out many quick attacks and mix those up, he/she would greatly benefit from the changes. Heroes with empty kits or that rely partly on the old meta of staling and parrypunishing like warden - not so much (but yes even warden can to some extent attack better with those attacks he got... yet he has not much to work with to mix things up real well).

--

I am not certain though how I should feel about the changes to GB immunity (100ms) on 700 ms characters. I felt in case of aramusha this was a great deal in his kit to as a sort of trump card. But I can see that it brings issues. Funny thing is that often it still works out for me, but I guess that comes from me doing subcontiously a good read on the situation and profiting from it. Need to see how this goes.

Hope to see lots of those TG changes implimented in live since I really cant stand the live version with its stamina cost anymore and those annoying moments of staling when your opponents is so very eager to look for a parry and do just nothing but stare in your face

[Siegfried-Z]

How can it be a buff for BP's bullwark slash when his GB vulnerability was increased by a further 33ms? BP is one of the characters I play frequently and I have not noticed people's GBs failing to catch my Bullwark slash at the same timing they did before the patch.

It's not just a good tool. Toe stab is the single strongest ganking tool in the game, both in the TG and in the live game. It even beats out Shaman's bite because of how long it revenge locks the opponent thus denying them revenge activation until after an ally's external heavy hits them. It's still the easiest and most abusable ganking tool in the entire game by far.

His damage numbers in the TG matched what most other heroes did with their heavies and lights. His deadly feint infinite chain allowed him to bypass the defender's frame advantage by not allowing them to hit him first as he goes through his infinite light chain and his deadly feint game was properly unreactable unlike in the live game where people on PC who can react to 400ms indicators would shut Aramusha down hard.

The current Musha is busted in terms of his damage and the fact that he has no form of opener from neutral. The TG Musha is in much better shape in my opinion. I would take being able to actually attack and use my offense with something resembling normal damage numbers over not being able to use any of my lights and only waiting for guarranteed opportunities to score Omega busted damage.

I did not had the figures in mind about BP's gb vulnerability but during this breach the moove felt less vulnerale than it was before.
The guy was maybe lagging. Anyway if it was 400ms gb vulnerable before then my bad. I did not play a lot since last patch and only had this Breach in mind where this BP got me with that many times while i am pretty sure i was attempting my GB on a timing which use to work before.

Okay so what would you do with Glad toe stab ? Would you like the moove to be deleted from the game ? If not then accept it as a good tool or the best ganking tool despite the nerf.
Ganking is the purpose of the moove, it is strong, sure, but outside of great 1v1 abilities and gank what else does Glad has going for him ? He is pretty bad at anything else which matter in 4s.
You was also the first to say "RIP Glad as far as competitive plays goes" after his Toe stab/haymaker nerf.

Musha was already able to display his offense correctly on console. I've Always agree his dmg should be look at, but they got nerf too far imo in the TG version. It has Nothing to do with "do i prefer to attack or to wait for my busted dmg", TG version feels like i can attack as i use to do before but with less dmg and i hope those TG changes if they go live will not be an excuse for the devs to just skip many deserved Rework (Musha being one).
Sure Musha was not able to do anything on PC, i know it and there i agree he got some benefits from TG. As you may know because of the discord, my opinion is TG changes are good for PC, not for console. Simple as that.

Saying those changes benefitted other heros doesn't at all take away from my statement. So I don't know why you're even bothering to make such a statement. And Toe stab is absolutely busted still. Just because it's no longer doing insane damage with haymaker doesn't mean it's suddenly balanced. It's been outlined before why the move is busted and none of those factors have changed. So either you're not aware of why Toe stab is considered to be a broken move or you do know and you're just disagreeing to disagree.

Aight whatever. I pointed out how Mushu is now better on TG. And you're just going to ignore that. Wow. The fact that you're willing to keep a hero in a busted state over actual usable offense is just. I have no words. I'll just see myself out.

I bother to make such a statement because there are not point to say those 2 "Particularly" benefits from TG. Their benefit is the same as most others as the we talk about general game changes.

Then, same question than i ask to Vakris, what would you do with Toe stab ? Because talking about it as a problem while nerfing it again would almost remoove the utility of the moove is not a solution.

Sorry but read your own words about musha and tells me what is usefull in that ? Not sure i just decide to ignore Something.
If my opinion is shocking you you should maybe just chill out about what is only a video game.

On console yes i do prefer the current Musha for the simple Reason than there are no real benefits big enough to compensate the dmg nerf on console.

[Siegfried-Z]

Maybe as a fellow aramusha user I can explain it a bit from a different angle to understand why aramusha benefits from TG changes.

Ara had better use for his infinite chains in TG. His entire kit could be better utilized and molded to a better working version. Which means in total you gained more mixup options because they would work more seamingless together. The only issue was while lights were harder to parry heavies were not. But luckily in conjunction with the changes to feint into gb you could actually use that to lure out either a parry attempt and gb (hence condition your opponent) or safely use a barriage of the heavy infinite to get some chip damage in.

The overall damage nerf was okayish. Only the nerf to the deadly feints from 20 to 11 was a bit too much as those are his main real damage output if the opponent is sticking to blocking only (he needs some damage output to profit from the stamina changes otherwise he has to spend way too much to get some measly results and risks getting bumped into OOS). But besides dealing less damage on side heavy openers and of course on finishers he gained the advantage that top heavy and light damage was standardized with all other sides. Meaning even the deadly feint dealt the same damage top as the side one, so there the read on the deadly feint was on tg much harder since there was no preferable side to go to because of damage and top heavy finishers would yield the same punishes as sides. Mixed in some good cancels into blockades, backstep attacks, or dodge attacks I had quite a good time as aramusha in TG.

Overall the rule of thumb in testing ground was, if the character had the ability to dish out many quick attacks and mix those up, he/she would greatly benefit from the changes. Heroes with empty kits or that rely partly on the old meta of staling and parrypunishing like warden - not so much (but yes even warden can to some extent attack better with those attacks he got... yet he has not much to work with to mix things up real well).

--

I am not certain though how I should feel about the changes to GB immunity (100ms) on 700 ms characters. I felt in case of aramusha this was a great deal in his kit to as a sort of trump card. But I can see that it brings issues. Funny thing is that often it still works out for me, but I guess that comes from me doing subcontiously a good read on the situation and profiting from it. Need to see how this goes.

Hope to see lots of those TG changes implimented in live since I really cant stand the live version with its stamina cost anymore and those annoying moments of staling when your opponents is so very eager to look for a parry and do just nothing but stare in your face

I Don't remember Kling do you play pc or console ? If on console did you feel Musha mix up use to be hard to display ? I personnaly Don't.

I think he got some benefits on PC because there he could Simply not do anything.

His dmg nerf on Deadly feint and side heavy are too hard imo.

I agree with the end of your post, the standardization to 433ms feels weird for hero with fast heavies and the only great TG changes imo was the stamina one which i do really like.