Senior Member
This is an extremely long post so a ‘TL;DR’ and an overview is provided.
TL;DR/Summary
Offense can be improved further with more attack variety by providing more access & context to existing tools. This can be done by giving all heroes complete chain sets & more chain starters, more soft-feints & cancel options, recovery cancels across their entire kit, and more stamina to utilise the mix-ups that would come these changes. Combat flow would be improved as heroes would be able to link a wider range of moves with each other and avoid unnecessary resets in their offense. Overall, this would make heroes less predictable and fights more intense.
Overview:
Introduction
1) The Basics
1.1) Complete chain attack set
1.2) Full set of chain starters
1.3) All heavies being feintable
1.4) More Stamina
1.5) Remove Reflex Guard
2) Further Changes
2.1) Recovery Cancels
2.1.1) Recovery cancels for normal attacks, chain finishers, and single-hit sprint attacks
2.1.2) Single-hit zone attacks recovery cancels
2.1.3) Dodge attack recovery cancels
2.1.4) Full Guard attack/counter recovery cancels
2.1.5) Sifu/Hidden stance recovery cancels
2.2) More soft feints and cancel options
2.2.1) Sifu/Hidden stance cancels options
2.2.2) Multi-hit Zone Attack and Multi-hit Sprint Attack cancel options
2.2.3) Multi-hit Guardbreak cancel options
2.2.4) Dodge Heavy cancel options
2.2.5) Heavy attack soft-feints
2.2.6) Unique Tools cancel options
2.3) More access to tools
2.3.1) Improved access for light attack combos
2.3.2) Improved access for guaranteed lights from heavy attacks
2.3.3) Improved access for special stances
2.3.4) Improved access for Charged and Special heavies
3) More Counterplay
3.1) Superior Block Dodge & Dodge Counters for all shield heroes
3.1.1) Black Prior Dodge Counters
3.1.2) Conqueror Dodge Counters
3.1.3) Warlord Dodge Counters
3.14) Valkyrie Dodge Counters
3.2) Deflect Changes
3.2.1) Guardbreak deflects for all assassins.
3.2.2) Execution on deflects, including light deflects.
3.2.3) Deflects countering unblockable heavy attacks.
UPDATE(11/04/2020) - 3.2.4) Deflects stopping hyper armour attacks
UPDATE(11/04/2020):
3.3) Parry Punishes
3.3.1) Peacekeeper:
3.3.2) Black Prior:
3.3.3) Valkyrie:
3.3.4) Shugoki:
3.3.5) Aramusha:
3.3.6) Nobushi, Shinobi, Tiandi, & Shaolin
3.3.7) Zhanhu
UPDATE(25/04/2020):
3.4) Crushing Counters
3.4.1) Warden
3.4.2) Raider
3.4.3) Kensei
4) Closing Thoughts
5) What do you think?
Introduction
I was going to save this post for a later date but in light of the fight changes in Testing Grounds(27th Feb - 12th Mar 2020) coupled with feedback surveys and threads, I thought it would be a good time to share my views on improving offense. While I feel that the changes in TG are a step in the right direction and only need polish, players will get used to them over time and more will need to be done to improve offense, and I don’t think speeding the game up again will work down the line. It will take a range of changes to get offense, and combat in general, to where we want it to be(not that you can please everyone).
The following extensive list of changes is to standardise offense. It aims to give all heroes what I feel should be the minimum amount of offense in order to be viable. The core intention is to allow them to initiate, change direction, extend, and end offense in a range of ways, and improve counterplay. These changes will mainly achieve this by providing more access & context to existing tools. Combat flow would be improved as heroes would be able to link a wider range of moves with each other and avoid unnecessary resets in their offense. Overall, this would allow heroes to be less predictable and make fights more interesting. These suggestions by no means serve as a full rework for any hero, again, it is a combat standardisation wishlist.
This post will mainly focus on improvements so nerfs won't be discussed here. If you feel that you must mention nerfs, please keep it brief since, for the most part, appropriate nerfs go without saying. I will be mentioning these suggestions in my TG survey. In case the developers do read them, feel free to share your views on them here so they’ll know what you think. I may update this post depending on your feedback and if I come up with more ideas in the future.
1) The Basics
The suggestions in this section are what I feel are the core fundamentals all heroes should have and are the safest changes:
1.1) Complete chain attack set
This is where if the hero has a 2-hit, 3-hit, 4-hit, or an infinite chain type, that hero would have all of the possible chains of that type. At the moment, a lot of the Year 1 heroes have incomplete chain sets which makes them more predictable than necessary.
1.2) Full set of chain starters
Similar to having a complete set of chain attacks, a lot of heroes could do with a full set of chain starters. Below is a list of attacks that are not chain starters for all heroes:
• Zone attacks(even single hit zones)
• Sprint attacks(even single hit sprint attacks)
• Dodge attacks
• Parry punishes
• Soft feints
• Full Guard attacks/counters
• Deflects
• Unique tools
1.3) All heavies being feintable
I feel all heavies should be feintable, including zones, aerial heavies, and all dodge heavies. Heroes like Peacekeeper, Kensei, Warlord, Shaolin, Zhanhu, Warden etc. would benefit from feintable dodge heavies as it would reduce the risk and add to their mix-ups.
1.4) More Stamina
While the removal of stamina penalties is good, I feel more needs to be done since heroes can still run out of stamina too soon when the fights become intense. I suggest the following:
- If there are additional stamina costs on feints and soft-feints, remove them as well.
- Adjust the stamina cost ratios so each move takes a more proportionate amount stamina.
- UPDATE(16/12/20): Standardise the cost of zone attacks to every heavy, light, and bash thrown. This is a fairer cost since in most cases the attacks from the zone come from the same direction. Performing 2-3 zone attacks before running out of stamina is far too restricting.
- Globally reduce the stamina cost of all moves by 50-75%. This includes zones.
In order to use more mix-ups and improve offense in general, the cost of stamina needs to be relatively low so the removal of penalties won’t be enough in the long term. Here, players would be able to attack more often but still get winded when attacked. Also, better stamina would justify the role of stamina bullies which many still continue to question.
1.5) Remove Reflex Guard
Removing reflex guard has been a long-standing request. It serves as more of a disadvantage for assassin’s since:
• All heroes are getting faster.
• Assassin’s have the smallest health pool.
• 1vX scenarios are more difficult to deal with.
• Sometimes you have to refresh your guard for very slow attacks.
• You get hit for not refreshing your guard in general and not because you failed to react in time or pay attention to your opponent.
• All the above offers your opponent(s) cheap openings.
2) Further Changes
The following suggestions do become more subjective as the risk of over-tuning certain heroes would increase but are still worth exploring in order to improve offense and make combat more dynamic. With Testing Grounds, risks should be taken to remove speculation on what does and doesn’t work.
Of course, not all changes would apply to every hero due to them lacking certain tools, and some heroes already have what is suggested here.
2.1) Recovery Cancels
All heroes should have access to recovery cancels with the possibilities maxed out.
2.1.1) Recovery cancels for normal attacks, chain finishers, and single-hit sprint attacks should include:
• zone attack
• dodge/dodge attack
• full guard
• Sifu/Hidden stance
• unique tools
2.1.2) Single-hit zone attacks recovery cancels:
• dodge/dodge attack
• full guard
• Sifu/Hidden stance
• unique tools
2.1.3) Dodge attack recovery cancels:
• zone attack
• full guard
• Sifu/Hidden stance
• unique tools
2.1.4) Full Guard attack/counter recovery cancels:
• zone attack
• dodge/dodge attack
• unique tools
2.1.5) Sifu/Hidden stance recovery cancels:
• normal attacks
• zone attack
• dodge/dodge attack
• unique tools
2.2) More soft feints and cancel options
2.2.1) Sifu/Hidden stance cancels options:
Same as the recovery cancels mentioned above.
2.2.2) Multi-hit Zone Attack and Multi-hit Sprint Attack cancel options:
• Guardbreak
• Dodge/dodge attack
• Stances - eg. Hidden, Sifu, Qi, Offensive, etc.
• Full Guard/Blade Blockade
• Unique tools
• Multi-directional zone/sprint attack finishers
2.2.3) Multi-hit Guardbreak cancel options:
• Dodge/dodge attack – not just good for offensive mix-ups but for reducing vulnerability in team fights
2.2.4) Dodge Heavy cancel options:
• Dodge/dodge attack
• Standard cancel/feint – as mentioned earlier
• Unique tools
2.2.5) Heavy attack soft-feints:
• Parry punishes
• Full Guard
• Full Guard attacks(without needing Full Guard for access)
• Dodge/dodge attack
• Guardbreak
• Unique tools
2.2.6) Unique Tools cancel options:
Here are some examples of how cancel options can be applied to the heroes’ unique tools:
2.2.6a) OROCHI:
Here the Orochi would be given back the old version of Riptide and have it coexist with the current one. The old Riptide was slower, a heavy attack, did around 40 damage, and had less guardbreak vulnerability since it wasn’t a dodge attack but it couldn’t be feinted for some reason despite being a heavy. It also had a different input.
Old Riptide cancel options:
• Standard cancel/feint
• Dodge/dodge attack
• Guardbreak
• Zone attack
Storm Rush cancel options:
• Dodge/dodge attack
• Guardbreak
• Old Riptide
With the above changes, the Orochi would be able to transition between Storm Rush and the old Riptide without needing a hard reset. Among the other possibilities from these changes, this adds to the Orochi’s mix-ups and mind games.
2.2.6b) VALKYRIE:
Some of these suggestions involve giving back Valkyrie’s old tools:
Shield Tackle cancel options -
during stance:
• Dodge/dodge attack
• Spear Sweep
• Zone attack
• Side light finisher
while charging forward:
• Dodge/dodge attack
2.2.6c) SHUGOKI:
Charge of the Oni cancel options:
• Demon’s Embrace
• Crashing Thunder
• Zone attack
2.2.6d) SHINOBI:
Aerial feints for heavies:
Shinobi leaps into the air when performing normal heavies which makes it easy for opponents to see and parry. Shinobi should be able to feint heavy attacks in mid-air as well as on start-up to address this weakness.
Sickle Rain cancel options:
• Guardbreak throw(roundhouse kick/back throw)
• Dodge – to reduce vulnerability in team fights
Counter to Grab cancel option:
• Front Roll – the current counter to Grab leaves Shinobi vulnerable to a free heavy, rendering the move useless in many scenarios. Shinobi should be able to counter the tumble with Front Roll to remove the weakness and improve counterplay.
2.2.6e) LAWBRINGER:
The Long Arm cancel options:
• Standard cancel/feint
• Light Riposte
• Heavy attack
• Zone attack
• Chargeable
2.2.6f) SHAOLIN:
Qi Stance cancel options:
• Dodge/dodge attack
• Zone attack
Note: These changes wouldn’t affect current Qi Stance options.
2.3) More access to tools
Here we look at providing more access to a range of tools to make them more viable.
2.3.1) Improved access for light attack combos
Heroes with light attack combos should have standardised access to them as follows:
• First and second light in the chain
• All sides
• Dodge lights – where applicable
2.3.2) Improved access for guaranteed lights from heavy attacks
• Any heavy in the chain, including finishers
• Guaranteed light would count as a light in a chain
2.3.3) Improved access for special stances
When accessing stances from lights, heroes like Highlander and Shaolin need to either miss or connect with them to access their stances since the lights bounce off on block. One solution is:
• Make Highlander’s and Shaolin’s lights enhanced but without the added hit stun.
More access to their stances can also come from:
• Zone attacks – from any strike, including zone finishers
• Upon throwing/landing a chain finisher
• Sprint attacks(Highlander) – from any strike, including sprint attack finisher
• Special attacks from stances(Shaolin)
• Final hit of Death Point Stike(Shaolin)
2.3.4) Improved access for Charged and Special heavies
All charged/special heavies should be accessible during chains. Below are some examples:
2.3.4.a) NUXIA:
Nuxia’s Manipulation heavies are locked behind chain finishers. She should be able to perform a Manipulation on any heavy in the chain by simply holding the heavy attack button. It would look like a normal heavy until impact. It wouldn’t slow down or have any unique indicators. Traps and feints would still be options, and the chain would continue if the heavy is blocked.
2.3.4b) CONQUEROR
As suggested by common feedback, Conqueror should be able to charge heavies during chains.
On a side note, Conqueror should also be able to perform normal feints instead of relying on Full Guard to cancel heavies which consumes more stamina.
3) More Counterplay
3.1) Superior Block Dodge & Dodge Counters for all shield heroes
Giving all shield heroes Superior Block Dodge in all directions not only makes sense as they can Dodge Block with their shields but would allow them access to their Full Guard counters and other tools from the rest of their kit by via Dodge Counters(like deflects).
3.1.1) Black Prior Dodge Counters:
• Bulwark Counter
• Bulwark Slash
• Tenebris Rising or Guardbreak
3.1.2) Conqueror Dodge Counters:
• Flail Uppercut
• Charging Shield Crush or Guardbreak
3.1.3) Warlord Dodge Counters:
• Board & Blade
• Block & Stab
• Headbutt, Shield Counter, or Guardbreak
3.1.4) Valkyrie Dodge Counters:
Valkyrie can already perform Shoulder Pin from dodge blocking but more options could include:
• Side light finisher
• Spear Sweep or Guardbreak – Guardbreak would be good with the old Ram’s Headbutt
3.2) Deflect Changes
As deflects come with a great deal of risk, the rewards should be greater but this can be done without damage buffs.
3.2.1) Guardbreak deflects for all assassins.
Guardbreak deflects should be standard for all assassins. Apart from improving mix-ups in general, heroes like Peacekeeper would benefit from accessing Stab from a deflect. If Shaman is still allowed to get a free Predator’s Mercy from a guardbreak, that’s another bonus(or curse for some).
3.2.2) Execution on deflects, including light deflects.
While this is only stylish in duels, this would help in team fights from the extra renown and the timer penalties executions give to opponents.
3.2.3) Deflects countering unblockable heavy attacks.
This may seem controversial to some but if heroes like Black Prior can counter any move in the game, except guardbreaks, with his Bulward Counter, deflecting unblockables shouldn’t be an issue given the risk involved. Apart from more access to deflects, this would improve counterplay.
UPDATE(11/04/2020):
3.2.4) Deflects stopping hyper armour attacks.
This one is based on common feedback and I agree that deflects should stop hyper armour based offense. This is another change that would put deflects on a similar level to parries, reward the risk involved, and improve counterplay. On a side note, hyper armour should be reserved for trading rather than making offense safe.
UPDATE(11/04/2020):
3.3) Parry Punishes:
Here we look at what existing moves could be used as parry punishes. The types include:
- Full Guard attacks/counters
- Soft-feints
- Offensive tools
- Unique tools
Examples include:
3.3.1) Peacekeeper:
- Dagger Cancel
3.3.2) Black Prior:
- Zone Attack
3.3.3) Valkyrie:
- Old Ram's Headbutt(stamina punish)
- Side light finisher
3.3.4) Shugoki:
- Headbutt
- Charge of the Oni
Note: Charge of the Oni should wall-splat opponents in general, and knock them down from a parry punish and when they are out of stamina.
3.3.5) Aramusha:
- Push Back Kick
- Ring the Bell
- Twin Vipers
3.3.6) Nobushi, Shinobi, Tiandi & Shaolin:
- Kick
- Sun Kick(Shaolin)
3.3.7) Zhanhu
- Subduing Counterblow
UPDATE(25/04/2020):
3.4) Crushing Counters
Crushing counters seem to be a standard feature for shield based heroes. I feel this should be the same for Vanguards, at least, as they're supposed to be the well-rounded ones.
3.4.1) Warden
- On all sides, not just the top.
3.4.2) Raider
- Storming Tap(plus stun on successful crushing counter)
3.4.3) Kensei
- Side dodge heavies
- Forward dodge light
4) Closing Thoughts
I’m aware all these changes may be asking too much in light of what the developers can do but I honestly feel that they are what is necessary to help get For Honor’s combat in a more ideal place. One of the combat’s biggest appeal is its mix-ups and mind games, and they are what separates it from other fighting games. They are some of the core reasons that made us fall in love with the game and I feel these suggestions would flesh out those aspects a lot.
While the changes in Testing Grounds do make For Honor feel more like a fighting game and brings some of the community back to the early days of how the game initially felt, again, they will get used to the changes to the point where more and different things will need to be done to strengthen the game’s combat. Again, in light of how many members of the community reacted to TG, I doubt speeding up the game again will produce positive results.
As the developers continued to make changes to make For Honor more competitive, Testing Grounds has shown some disconnect between the game’s current direction and what many members of the community want. It’s fine for any game to take inspiration from other games for improvement but it shouldn’t get carried away. Some would make the player background argument in that For Honor isn’t an RPG or action-adventure game, it is a fighting game, which is true. However, the game is very unique and is not like the other fighting games since most of them are 2D or 2.5D with different mechanics to match. What works in traditional 2D/2.5D fighting games may not work so well in a unique full 3D fighting game like For Honor. For Honor needs to know what it is and what it isn’t from both a fighting and non-fighting game perspective but at the same time, it can take inspiration from both types.
What is For Honor? To me, it is an immersive medieval fantasy 3D fighting game with mix-ups and mind games at the forefront of its combat. Its unique combat system allows players to enjoy the feel of the fight and the mental chess behind it. One of the game’s biggest charms(and curse at times) is its ability to effortlessly draw out the players’ passion and emotions.
5) What do you think?
• What do you like and dislike about the suggestions in this post?
• Are there any statements you either agree or disagree with? Please explain why
• What concerns and definite no-nos do you have? Please explain why.
• Is there anything you would like to add or change?
• What are your top 5 changes from this post?
Again, this post focuses on improving offense and counterplay via standardisation. Appropriate nerfs go without saying. If you must mention any nerfs, keep it as brief as possible.
If you got this far, sorry about the extremely long post, and thank you so much for reading. I look forward to your feedback and remember to always maintain a constructive discussion.
Senior Member
A lot of very nice thoughts and changes.
I also have some ideas with offense and defense in general.
The majority of the player base (as I observed) seems to have a problem with sped up attacks (me too). And that's a valid point because speeding up attacks isn't the right way to counter the "turtle meta". So what the Devs basically did was not nerfing the defense but buffing the offense to a point where it only gets annoying. I thought of it in another direction. Why don't we just nerf the defense and keep the speed of attacks as they are (with some additional adjustments of course)?
I thought about the options one has when defending themselves. We have blocking, parrying, dodging, deflecting, special stances, full block (but that's blocking anyways). What if those moves consume stamina? Ok obviously we are going to get out of stamina more often. But how about a faster stamina regeneration then? Let's say you're oos. We give it a 3 seconds oos state where your stamina can't get drained or paused. So we have a little break in the flow of the fight but only for a few seconds.
A blocked attack should also vary when it comes to stamina drain. It should depend on the damage an attack does. The higher the damage, the higher the stamina drain.
I think the biggest problem for throwing attacks is the risk of being parried all the time, well, because an attack is too slow or too predictable. But we don't need to speed up the attacks. How about we nerf the parry itself instead? Guarenteed damage after a parry = gone. The only thing I would "guarentee" is a light attack which is semi guarenteed. So it can only get parried but can't be blocked. Heavy attacks (whether it's a light or heavy parry) can be blocked or parried. But why should you parry then when you simply can block everything you ask? Well, let's give the attacking side some tools so you still want to parry (no, not speed).
CHIP DAMAGE! Obviously. Higher chip damage (like 25%) and make it lethal. So an opponent with 1 hp can be killed when he simply blocks an attack.
Chain Finisher Follow-ups (Cffs). The only guarenteed damage I would add to this game (except for infinite chains and chains which end with an unblockable attack).
What a Cff basically is:
A guarenteed attack which gets initiated automatically when the last hit of a chain successfully lands (it doesn't matter if blocked or not). Every chain of a character should have a different Cff. Maybe at least one for stamina drain and one for damage.
And most importantly: Bashes do not guarentee damage.
The change: If a bash lands successfully, the attack afterwards (heavy or light) can't be parried. Only blocked. Every attack after a bash is enhanced and therefor not interruptible. (unblockable attacks can be parried obviously)
Very important:
No exceptions. A light attack drains the opponents stamina and does chip damage. No matter if enhanced or not. (25% of 15 isn't that much anyways)
Chain finisher lights also guarentee Cffs.
Just to add my ideas to yours
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The following is my take on Peacekeeper's rework on December 2020 Test Grounds:
https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en...m:154-76770-32
Changes that both I like and agree with my suggestions(see section 2.2.2 of O.P.):
- soft-feint the zone attack with a dodge
- soft-feint the zone attack with a guardbreak
Changes that were a good step in the right direction:
- finally giving PK unblockable heavy finishers and zone via bleeds as that allows her to pressure her opponents better and force a reaction
- increasing the damage of heavy attacks at this allows PK to land more executions which is very useful in team fights in terms of both healing and adding respawn penalties to opponents
Note: If it turns out that PK does end up doing too much damage then nerfing the damage of her lights would be the best option in light of the ongoing issue with light spam. The damage of her bleeds & heavies should be left untouched due to the Thick Skin feat and landing more executions respectively.
Additional changes PK needs for her rework:
- a complete 3-hit chain attack set to improve attack variety and reduce predictability
- allow Deep Gouge to be followed by chain finishers
- making dodge heavies chain starters – this and the above would improve flow
- making dodge heavies feintable to reduce the risk and improve pressure
- give Stab a dodge cancel to reduce her vulnerability in team fights and improve her ability to handle 1vX scenarios
Further suggestions but not urgent(as of this post):
- make Dagger Cancel a chain starter
- give dodge heavies a guardbreak soft-feint
- cancel the recovery PK’s guardbreak throw with a dodge
- add Dagger Cancel as a parry punish
- cancel the recovery of normal attacks, including finishers, with a dodge
- let the current deflect land executions
- add guardbreak as a deflect
- let the zone attack be a recovery cancel for:
- normal attacks
- dodge heavies
- Deep Gouge
Note: In general, being able to use zone attacks in chains makes 1vX scenarios easier, reduces the need for revenge, and allows for better stalling.
Bugs - opponents removing bleed on target switch:
During team fights, sometimes when PK's applies bleed to her opponent, the opponent can remove the bleed by locking onto someone else instead of waiting for the standard time to elapse so her unblockables won't work.
Senior Member
Changes I like:
- Forward Dodge Heavy - good for catching rollers and closing the distance in general
- Side Dodge Melee/Headbutt – great for counter-play and turning the tide
- reducing the recovery of Demon’s Embrace – this helps reduce the risk of the move
Changes that were a step in the right direction:
- removing hyper-armour from neutral light – reducing player frustration is always important. If the game isn’t fun, what it the point?
Changes that require further compensation:
- while removing hyper-armour from Demon’s Embraces levels the playing field for all heroes in terms of counter-play, this change made Shugoki weaker as a result given how limited his kit actually is
Further changes needed for Shugoki’s rework:
- allow the Forward Dodge Heavy to:
- be feintable – to reduce the risk of getting parried
- have hyper-armour
- be soft-feinted by Demon’s Embrace
Note: These changes would add more purpose and viability to the Forward Dodge Heavy.
- give Shugoki the complete 2-hit chain set and allow him to follow light finishers with a heavy finisher
- the chain set should look like the following: LH, HH, LL, HL, LLH, &, HLH- this will help improve attack variety and reduce predictability
- add a Forward Dodge Headbutt to the kit for more pressure
- make the zone attack undodgeable as another option to catch opponents
- bring back the neutral Demon's Embrace and give it hyper-armour
Further suggestions but not urgent(as of this post):
- allow Shugoki’s Headbutt to be soft-feinted by Demon’s-embrace in light of the initial delay the Headbutt has
- changes to Charge of the Oni:
- Demon’s Embrace soft-feint
- Crashing Thunder soft-feint
- wall-splat opponents
- knockdown opponents that are out-of-stamina
- parry punishes:
- Headbutt or Demon’s Embrace(confirmed on parried lights)
- Charge of the Oni
- allow Demon Ball to be performed in any direction OR at least allow Shugoki to perform normal side heavies from a Guardbreak to get more executions
- Add Side Dodge Heavies to the kit. They can be single hit attacks that use the same animations at Shugoki's Old Zone Attack where he runs forward as he swings. These attacks should also have the following:
- Chain starter
- Standard cancel/feint
- Demon's Embrace soft-feint
- Hyper-armour
- Let Zone Attack be a recovery cancel for:
- Normal attacks
- Dodge attacks(Headbutt & dodge heavies)
- chained Headbutt
- Let Dodge Heavies be a recovery cancel for:
- Normal attacks
- chained Headbutt
- Zone Attack
Bugs:
The Forward Dodge Heavy does not land executions.
Senior Member
Here's my take on Warden's rework on December 2020 Testing Grounds:
Initial thoughts:
While improvements to a hero are welcome, the direction also matters. Many to most Warden mains wanted a rework that made Warden’s identity into a swordmaster where he swings his sword a lot more than he bashes. His old kit was too Shoulder Bash centric and the current rework makes things worse in that regard. His rework should be geared towards more utility with his sword and my suggestions will focus on that.
Changes that were a step in the right direction:
- Removing the back dodge Shoulder Bash. Personally, the move didn’t bother me much but I did see how much it frustrated the community. It’s always good to address player frustration where possible.
- Reduced zone attack recovery - this reduces the risk and makes the move more viable as a result.
- Unblockable Side Heavy Finishers - this helps reduce Warden’s predictability as he/she no longer needs to rely on the Top Heavy Finisher to add pressure to opponents.
- Improved/wider trajectories of heavies – this helps Warden cope with 1vX scenarios better and reduces the reliance on zone attacks and revenge.
Suggestions for further improvements & the swordmaster identity:
- Give warden the complete 3-hit chain set to improve attack variety and reduce predictability. Many, including myself, feel Warden's kit is missing a heavy-to-light chain. The complete 3-hit chain set would resolve this issue as well as offer more flexibility on top of it.
- Make the Running Heavy a chain starter for additional flow
- Let the Light Attack Combo(guaranteed light) be accessed from the second and third attack in the chain if it is a side light.
- Let the Zone Attack to be recovery cancel for the following so it can be used in attack chains:
- normal lights and heavies
- Valiant Breakthrough
- running heavy
- Light Attack Combo(guaranteed light)
- Allow Valiant Breakthrough to be used from both Back and Side Dodge
- Give Valiant Breakthrough:
- standard cancel/feint
- Guardbreak soft-feint
- Allow Dodge to be a recovery cancel for the following so Valiant Breakthrough(as well as Should Bash) can be used in the middle of a chain:
- lights and heavies, including finishers
- Zone Attack
- running heavy
- Light Attack Combo(guaranteed light)
- Soft-feint normal heavies with:
- Zone Attack
- Dodge(Valiant Breakthrough in mind)
- Allow Warden to use Crushing Counter from side lights.
Note: With these changes, Warden would be able to extend a 3-hit attack chain to 4-6 hits as well as have opportunities for infinite combos that wouldn’t be too oppressive. His/her offense would have multiple branching options which, again, helps improve attack variety and reduce predictability. There would also be more tools that would be good for target switches and, thus, improve 1vX scenario viability.
Senior Member
Here is my take on Nobushi’s rework on December 2020 Testing Grounds.
Initial thoughts:
Nobushi definitely needed these improvements and I hope more is on the way. While I didn’t use her much during TG, I did enjoy the time I had more than her build in the live game. The better flow and mixups is a definite plus in my book.
Changes that are a step in the right direction:
- Lower stamina costs for Hidden Stance & Zone Attack(1st hit)
Note: Lower stamina costs is always welcome but even lower would still be better since attacking and feinting can wind you quite rapidly and you’re forced to adopt a slower pace than you would prefer. I would have preferred the cost of the Zone Attack to be standardised to every heavy thrown but, again, this is better than nothing.
- Heavy Finishers and Heavy Attacks from Hidden Stance are now Undodgeable – when combined with her Kick, this gives Nobushi more mixups and puts her on a closer level to Black Prior, Jorm, and Gryphon.
Changes that I like and agree with my suggestions for the most part:
- Zone Attack 2nd hit now soft feints into Kick, Heavy Finisher and Dodge. (See section 2.2.2 of O.P.)
- Cobra Strike and Sidewinder chaining to Heavy Finisher – while this give better flow, I would have preferred these moves to be actual chain starters where either lights or heavies could follow. (See section 1.2 of O.P.)
Suggestions for further improvements:
- Remove the delay or reduce the recovery of Sidewinder. There’s always a pause if the move is followed by a Kick, Heavy Finisher, or Viper's Retreat. That pause should be the players choice, not the only option if they want to follow up from the Sidewinder.
- Give Nobushi the complete 3-hit chain set for improved attack variety.
- Make both dodge heavies & lights and Viper’s Retreat actual chain starters so they can be followed by either a light or heavy.
- Make the hit-box to Nobushi’s Sidewinder wider.
- Let Nobushi take a wider sidestep for both side dodge heavies and lights so she can evade and counter better with the moves.
- Increase window where Heavies can be cancelled with Hidden Stance
Further suggestions but not urgent(as of this post):
- Make Zone Attack a recovery cancel for:
- normal attacks
- Dodge lights and heavies
- Viper’s Retreat
- Make Dodge a recovery cancel for:
- normal attacks
- Dodge lights and heavies
- Viper’s Retreat
- Cancel Zone Attack with Hidden Stance.
- Soft-feint heavies with:
- Kick
- Viper’s Retreat
- Dodge/Dodge Attack
- Sidewinder soft-feints:
- Standard cancel/feint
- Hidden Stance
- Kick
- Viper’s Retreat
- Allow ANY attack to be followed by a Kick(e.g. Cobra Strike, Viper’s Retreat, etc.)
- Allow ANY attack to be followed by a Viper’s Retreat(e.g. Cobra Strike, etc.) - chain only ends if the move replaces a chain finisher
The above changes would allow Hidden Stance to be a transition tool into other moves as well as help provide more variation to her offense and mind games. Being able to use Zone Attacks during chains helps with 1vX Scenarios. Using dodge attacks in chains helps improve attack variety as well as assist in 1vX scenarios, especially when attacking during a target switch.
