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  1. #1
    KitingFatKidsEZ's Avatar Banned
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    May 2017
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    Testing grounds balance

    Love TGS - as many others i would take it over live instantly with 0 changes. Anyway..
    Ill try to share some balance concerns. These are mainly for duel and i will specify its 4v4 when necessairy. Ill try to be as concise as possible.

    Heavy dodge attacks are too good. 20 damage for shaman is too much off heavy dodge, Not sure what the exact value for pk is but it should be somewhere around that.
    Considering its a low stamina cost move with very low risk that stops offense there needs to be more of a tradeoff here.
    Light dodge attacks are perfectly fine due to light parries.

    Conq zone is too good. You can use it like heavy dodges to stop chain pressure - you get a 1in3 chance of a parry and block+8 damage on everything else (including gb read) (not sure if the parry timing actually works out for 400ms chains) - only gets beaten by parry which is heavy. Costs almost no stamina.
    Conq/LB dodge bash are problematic due to the same reasons as heavy dodges. Do less damage tho. Not punishable for a handful of characters. Debateable. Not entirely decided on dodge bash out of chain.

    Conq fullblock does too much damage at 24. Its very easy to get and it does soo much damage. This has to be lowered - as it is its kinda insane.


    I said this way back - only reducing damage benefits heavies the most - if damage is lower every point of health becomes MORE valuable. (though i certainly see some power level changes in damage dealt that are ever so slightly favoring assassins which is very nice)
    This makes heavies stronger - regardless of what reddit tells you. Especially perks are a problem. Jormungandrs healing/shield feats + perks are a huge problem and one of the reasons he is as insane as he is in 4v4. Because of the high power level of hyperarmor - bash is again very strong because its the only appropriate counterplay. Both mostly prevalent on heavies.

    All enhanced lights became much better as it is much harder to tell the difference between light/heavy by the time you have to parry for lights. This is again especially a problem o Jorm due to his armor heavies/enhanced lights + high pressure on the 2nd move in chain. A lot of people complain about pk because of this reason imo. On bleed you cant stop her pressure by just blocking. I dont think this needs to be addressed on pk but on Jorm its a pretty big issue.

    >Good< berserkers are straight up broken in duel. I legit dont see how you beat them without bash and even then its not free by any means. The combination of hyperarmor + 300ms omnidirectional soft feinted hyperarmor lights + dodging out of heavies/heavy recoveries end up making the char crazy good in the right hands.

    Raider is brutal to deal with. Maybe i overrate this character but in solo queue 4v4 his ability to clear minions insanely fast by spamming lights + press gb to gank added to his crazy soft feint make him very good in my opinion - if someone has a way to deal with it id love to hear it. see below

    Soft feints are very good. Most of them are fine , the only that seems overtuned to me is Raiders hyperarmor chain heavy/GB/storming tap mixup. Costs almost no stamina. Dodge attack trades unfavourably with heavy and raider continues his chain, gets beaten by gb. The timing/range on the heavy is really off from the light making it very hard to iframe through both and on empty dodge he just continues his mixup anyway + you lose to gb.


    Missed attacks costing no stamina. Not a huge fan of this change specifically. This means that a handful of characters can access their chains off backwards light for basically no cost all the time (specifically Raider Jorm, JJ because of their huge forward movement on chains and a bunch of characters that arent good and therefore dont matter like orochi and kensei). You cant stop backwards light on almost all characters. Forcing you to pretty much deal with chain pressure at all times.

    Last but no least running attack gb (ledge / gank tools) from raider and warlord feel really off. First of all if these got the flat -100ms to their animation/indicator (not actually sure they did) they are back to being 500ms which were nerfed for being too silly. I got grabbed on what i think would be correct timing on live multiple times - might just be that my timing is off by 100ms but the indicator/animations are the same. Really not sure.
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  2. #2
    PK gets 24 damage when you consider bleed damage. I could potentially see nerfing Shaman's side dodge heavies a bit. Is there any other dodge heavies you find hitting too hard?
    Eh. I'm still not convinced conq's zone is a problem even in TG. But...if it were to be nerfed i'd probably slightly increase the time it takes block to activate. I don't see conq's dodge bash as a problem. Perhaps I need a better explanation.

    LB's is for sure an issue and was even before TG. they just need to remove the armor on his side dodge bash. Forward can keep it's armor. And sure, we can lower flail uppercut's damage from 24 to 20. But it should still be a rather meaty punish imo considering how easy it is to bait and punish. I'm unsure about changing Jorm's hit reaction on his lights to a light hit reaction over medium. I understand fully how helpful it is for him. But his lights are still a reasonable reaction to make on their own. Jorm has issues for sure but I don't think his lights are one of those.

    Zerk I personally do not struggle against. I'm already used to good zerks so fighting one on TG wasn't much different for me. However he's one of the main reasons why i'd like to see light damage (or at least neutral lights) damage be brought down a bit more. Back whiff into light can and should be solved by looking at weapon tracking and range. This would be as much of a nerf to back whiffing as it would be a buff to consistency for the game overall. I personally think stamina costs still need looking at for a handful of heros. And soft feints should be a bit cheaper. like removing the cost for the whiff portion of the calculation if it hasn't been already.

    Warlord and raider's running GB's just need a fixed distance. None of this hold x to carry farther nonsense.
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  3. #3
    KitingFatKidsEZ's Avatar Banned
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    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    PK gets 24 damage when you consider bleed damage. I could potentially see nerfing Shaman's side dodge heavies a bit. Is there any other dodge heavies you find hitting too hard?
    Eh. I'm still not convinced conq's zone is a problem even in TG. But...if it were to be nerfed i'd probably slightly increase the time it takes block to activate. I don't see conq's dodge bash as a problem. Perhaps I need a better explanation.

    Zerk I personally do not struggle against. I'm already used to good zerks so fighting one on TG wasn't much different for me. However he's one of the main reasons why i'd like to see light damage (or at least neutral lights) damage be brought down a bit more. Back whiff into light can and should be solved by looking at weapon tracking and range. This would be as much of a nerf to back whiffing as it would be a buff to consistency for the game overall. I personally think stamina costs still need looking at for a handful of heros. And soft feints should be a bit cheaper. like removing the cost for the whiff portion of the calculation if it hasn't been already.
    .
    I legit forgot nobushi and Kensei exist when writing this post.
    I think just in general heavy dodge that gets a guaranteed punish off a whiffed light chain should never do more than ~15 damage. Otherwise yolo dodging just gets way too good. PKs at 24 and shams at 20 are too high for sure.

    Dont actually know right now what the values are for nobu kens but same thing applies. Theyre just too poor as characters to matter. JJ and Tiandi i dont think have to get the same treatment because their dodge heavy is so slow it never guarantees the hit. Maybe JJs because of the opener/sf fucntion but again its a lot less silly than just randomly dodge attacking everything at minimal risk.


    I dont think zerk is a problem for characters with bash or hyperarmor themselves and since you play bp and hito i can see why it wouldnt be too much of an issue. I personally would pick bp/conq into berserker if i had to make a choice for the MU. Characters without easy access to bash or armor struggle a lot more.

    I very much disagree on the soft feints. i think theyre pretty good where they are. If anything some of them are too easy to just dodge attack/empty dodge out of. Minus Raiders as mentioned in my OP. But yea - since they are pretty damn strong by themselves i dont feel its necessairy to make them any better. Especially if yolo dodge heavy/bash get addressed.

    Two of the things that make dodge bash so good is that you get guaranteed interrupts - if hyperarmor is good - bash gets better because it beats armor. And in addition to whatever damage you always get stam damage as well.
    Ive seen plenty of people go for bash off heavy parry in live duels before tgs went up - just for the stam damage.
    Then its also harder to punish the bash on reaction - and this is where its definitely debateable - you get gb on read but if you react and you dont have a dodge attack you get legit nothing. Thats pretty rough.
    When attacking a char with dodge attack you can choose to just feint and youre safe at the very least and get a punish on dodge attack /nothing off patience).
    When attacking a char with dodge bash without having a dodge bash punish you get nothing if you feint and dodge on reaction and you still get nothing off him not reacting. Theres no possible positive outcome when playing safe - only on read - for characters with no bash punish.
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