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  1. #1

    What's the reasoning behind damage values of attacks in TG?

    Why is it some faster lights and heavies that have faster recovery from cancel or land faster deal more damage?
    Some heroes who design around spamming lights and heavy-feints (or landing them) has damage values higher or equal to those who is designed around landing 1-2 hits through a combo.

    Examples:
    Lawbringer heavy 24-26 (side, top)
    Highlander light does 13, offensive light does 8-9. Heavy 28 (cancel Celtic to side 24)
    Shugoki 24.


    On the other hand berserk does 14 light, heavy does 28-31. He's jumping one does freaking 45 damage
    Peacekeeper ligths do 14
    Orochi side heavy does 24 damage.
    Warlord's light deal 14 damage.


    How is it bigger weapons with clearer animation and some have even 600ms lights and 800+ms heavies do less damage compared to assassins with smaller weapons, less obvious animation, whose heavies cancel much faster and land faster too. Fighters with small weapons like swords and daggers do more damage with one attack than fighters wielding greatsword, giant club, halberd, etc
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  2. #2
    Typical UBI incompetence, BS or inability to employ basic logic and reasoning; take your pick.
    Completely disregarding realism (which is something I personally hate as I think that the best fantasy/games/mechanics respect realism at least to a point), from a purely balancing standpoint, what they are doing is complete and utter trash (with the damage values as you pointed out).

    The less you can do with an attack, the higher its damage should be. For example; if you can not soft feint it and it is a longer animation and you get no HA during it, the attack should do a lot of damage, because it will most likely not land or be interrupted altogether. The more you can do with it, the less damage it should do. You can easily soft feint it? 5 Less damage. You get HA during it? 5 Less damage. It has the undodgeable property? 5 Less damage. Extremely short animation, less than 600ms, etc? 10 less damage. And so on. THIS is balance. You gain something, but lose something in return. This is something that UBI has been incapable of comprehending for 4 years now. Instead, they give a **** tone of new mechanics to new heroes and overbuff attacks that are crazy dangerous and clearly OP and nerf those that are practically useless already. Like children playing with new toys.

    I will give credit where credit is due; I really like most of the changes in the TG. But these damage values are a joke.
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  3. #3
    MrB3NX's Avatar Banned
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    I have no idea why the fight team thought these changes are good to the game

    I just hope they listen to the feedback and never bring this ever again

    The game is already barely playable so imagine you need 12 hits to kill the opponent ~!
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by MrB3NX Go to original post
    I have no idea why the fight team thought these changes are good to the game

    I just hope they listen to the feedback and never bring this ever again

    The game is already barely playable so imagine you need 12 hits to kill the opponent ~!
    What are you talking about? On the forum, most feedback is positive with some feedback and critic on the damage (which is addressed mostly).

    The damage values still need a look of course, some things need addressing, certain heroes need complete reworks, but the tg changes are great.



    To answer the main question: Peacekeeper actually cuts you with the sword during the animation. Highlander halfswords, which makes the lenght of the blade irrevelant, and in the ofstance version, only hits you with the pommel. I wouldn't pick minor things like numbers on Highlander though, he needs a total rework, this is the least problematic thing on him.
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  5. #5
    What are you talking about? On the forum, most feedback is positive with some feedback and critic on the damage (which is addressed mostly).

    The damage values still need a look of course, some things need addressing, certain heroes need complete reworks, but the tg changes are great.



    To answer the main question: Peacekeeper actually cuts you with the sword during the animation. Highlander halfswords, which makes the lenght of the blade irrevelant, and in the ofstance version, only hits you with the pommel. I wouldn't pick minor things like numbers on Highlander though, he needs a total rework, this is the least problematic thing on him.
    sure, if you wish to go "what's live-like" route. Why is he's Celtic Curse and Celtic curse soft feint do equal or a lot less damage (24) than other heavies? Those are full swings.

    You can judge damage by either:
    1) By numbers: slower, riskier moves should deal more damage. Then HL's light should do a lot more damage.
    2) By what makes sense in terms what would seem true in real life: his full swings should do more damage than two handed swords, shortswords, small axes and daggers.

    I don't have have a problem with OS light's damage. They are hard to react to, so buffing them would be stupid, but the stamina cost is stupid. I don't use lights to deal damage, but to interrupt enemy and buy myself time to do 50/50s that take A LOT of stamina. The way things are now, I can do couple of offensive ligths and two mix ups and that's it, I am OOS. Someone like berserker and aramusha can remove 90% of your hp through feints and still have stamina. Right now, eating their heavies is not that rare, since I am trying to parry in advance their soft-feints, not on reaction. Aramusha got nerfed, okay. But why Berserker with HA wasn't, I've no idea.
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  6. #6
    Originally Posted by No0ne_- Go to original post
    sure, if you wish to go "what's live-like" route. Why is he's Celtic Curse and Celtic curse soft feint do equal or a lot less damage (24) than other heavies? Those are full swings.

    You can judge damage by either:
    1) By numbers: slower, riskier moves should deal more damage. Then HL's light should do a lot more damage.
    2) By what makes sense in terms what would seem true in real life: his full swings should do more damage than two handed swords, shortswords, small axes and daggers.

    I don't have have a problem with OS light's damage. They are hard to react to, so buffing them would be stupid, but the stamina cost is stupid. I don't use lights to deal damage, but to interrupt enemy and buy myself time to do 50/50s that take A LOT of stamina. The way things are now, I can do couple of offensive ligths and two mix ups and that's it, I am OOS. Someone like berserker and aramusha can remove 90% of your hp through feints and still have stamina. Right now, eating their heavies is not that rare, since I am trying to parry in advance their soft-feints, not on reaction. Aramusha got nerfed, okay. But why Berserker with HA wasn't, I've no idea.
    good point on the comparison with aramusha and berserker. Zerk's values are still quite over the top whilst benefiting a lot from the tg changes especially with his activated hyper armor on lights. He surely should be looked at more.

    Aramusha on the other hand I appreciate that they have standardized the damage numbers for deadly feints on all sides so that we are going away from more favorable sides that can be easily prediction parried to a more open mix up but I advocate to put the dmg number up a little again (like 15-17) as aramusha main damage output heavily relies on these deadly feints and has thus use way too much stamina to deplete some of the opponent's health bar.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by No0ne_- Go to original post
    sure, if you wish to go "what's live-like" route. Why is he's Celtic Curse and Celtic curse soft feint do equal or a lot less damage (24) than other heavies? Those are full swings.

    You can judge damage by either:
    1) By numbers: slower, riskier moves should deal more damage. Then HL's light should do a lot more damage.
    2) By what makes sense in terms what would seem true in real life: his full swings should do more damage than two handed swords, shortswords, small axes and daggers.

    I don't have have a problem with OS light's damage. They are hard to react to, so buffing them would be stupid, but the stamina cost is stupid. I don't use lights to deal damage, but to interrupt enemy and buy myself time to do 50/50s that take A LOT of stamina. The way things are now, I can do couple of offensive ligths and two mix ups and that's it, I am OOS. Someone like berserker and aramusha can remove 90% of your hp through feints and still have stamina. Right now, eating their heavies is not that rare, since I am trying to parry in advance their soft-feints, not on reaction. Aramusha got nerfed, okay. But why Berserker with HA wasn't, I've no idea.

    Balance wise, yes, HL shouldn't have weaker damage than Peacekeeper. But my point is, he is terribly designed: if they would work (or when they work now), his offensive stance properties would be broken. Super dodges make almost everything with minimal recovery a suicide, he has a 40 damage punish for good reads, a 40 damage 50/50 which is designed to be entirely read based, super dodges make some of the offense useless. In short, if the Highlander actually works, with these tools, he has the unfair advantage, because he has some mixups which are outside the box. The inside the box tools, on the other hand, are terribly weak (this is everything in defensive stance).

    In short, he needs a full rework on Shinobi's level, because right now he is a mess, and if you compare literally anyone to him, you will find it unfair in the favour of the other hero. Even if that hero is someone as mediocre as Peacekeeper or Orochi.


    The real question is, of course, is where are the rework plans? I doubt they spent most of their resources creating the TG, while they are good, the initial damage values are clearly made with some kind of random generator.
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  8. #8
    Aramusha on the other hand I appreciate that they have standardized the damage numbers for deadly feints on all sides so that we are going away from more favorable sides that can be easily prediction parried to a more open mix up but I advocate to put the dmg number up a little again (like 15-17) as aramusha main damage output heavily relies on these deadly feints and has thus use way too much stamina to deplete some of the opponent's health bar.
    I don't think buffing his soft feints is a good idea. On TG if aramusha starts swinging, I no longer try to guess, unless he's too obvious. And his attacks still hurt quite a bit. In my opinion, he needs another tool or, if nothing else, buff heavies a bit. He should rewarded for confusing enemies enough to land those heavies. And because soft feints are so easy to land, it's better if they have lower damage value.

    Balance wise, yes, HL shouldn't have weaker damage than Peacekeeper. But my point is, he is terribly designed: if they would work (or when they work now), his offensive stance properties would be broken. Super dodges make almost everything with minimal recovery a suicide, he has a 40 damage punish for good reads, a 40 damage 50/50 which is designed to be entirely read based, super dodges make some of the offense useless. In short, if the Highlander actually works, with these tools, he has the unfair advantage, because he has some mixups which are outside the box. The inside the box tools, on the other hand, are terribly weak (this is everything in defensive stance).
    I disagree. I think his design is fairly balanced. At least, it was before they introduced undodgables and now hidden 100ms. Now, if they remove recoveries from cancel/entering OS, he will be too OP again, but with those recoveries, he's too weak.
    If you allowed him to enter OS safely, you already deserve to be punished for it ==> if let him dodge your attacks so easily by spamming combos, instead of feints and delays, again, you deserve to be punished.

    I think you underestimate how easy it is to get him out of OS even without undodgeables. When I fight against smarter opponents, who feint to force me to dodge to early to then catch me with heavy or bash or simple light. I can also can be grabbed out of it. So, in my opinion, it's fair in terms of risk, reward.

    Devs don't like that he can kill someone in three heavies? FINE, but decrease his stamina consumption. It's unfair how faster heroes can spam lights, heavy feints, bashes, whereas I use 30-40% of my stamina to land one heavy that doesn't have have impressive damage in TG.

    Even then, he will still be weak, cause of developer's genius idea of introducing undodgeables and I-can-dodge-any-50/50-in-one-go moves. Again, with added recovery to his Offensive cancel, it's harder to be on offence for 2 reasons:
    1) you can't stand on mid distance, waiting to dodge: undodgeables will catch you.
    2) you can't just start an attack: cause they can interrupt you mid attack with their light/heavies. I don't f*cking know how it beats me. Example: Aramusha can just spam his tempest and soft feints combo, and I have no way of stopping him other than cancelling OS and doing Celtic curse, which is slow enough for him to cancel his heavy and parry me. If I try to interrupt him with unblockable heavy, his light-heavy will catch me and I will receive damage, not him.
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  9. #9
    Even then, he will still be weak, cause of developer's genius idea of introducing undodgeables and I-can-dodge-any-50/50-in-one-go moves
    I am talking about canceleable dodges with good i-frames that basically nullifies main offence of warden, highlander, shugoki with zero thought process and almost no risk.
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