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this is a good change. I like that. I dislike that heavies now play lesser role, when logically you should be happier landing heavy. In TG, when I play HL, it's no longer my priority to dodge attacks and punish with heavy, instead I just spam offensive lights. This offers bigger chances to win. So, instead of dodging whole combos in order to land kick-heavy, I just dodge first light and start spamming lights. That's a boring way to play the game. And when i played against Orochi, he just stood in my face and light spammed with feints and I couldn't do much until I parried, rolled back or dodge the light. All of those option has big risk or cost.garr1999
I'd say the fixed 100 ms delay changes made certain characters better than they were before
highlander's crushing counters are still viable because it's still 600ms with a 100 ms blanket on it.
The damage values are still decent and the damage values for heavies make it less punishing so people
throw more attacks against most heroes instead of it being a mexican standoff even nobushi
benefitted from the changes in TG.
The only thing left to change is the healing/support feats in the TG they became too powerful in the TG
tweak this and the TG will be a better game.
It would be better if they decrease light attack damage to 8-9. This way fights will offer chances to recover and in dominion it won't be that easy to kill you in 2-3 double heavies. + it won't be so upsetting to get hit by light attack.Vendelkin
Good discussion!
True heavies do need to still be valued and in TG perhaps they are a bit weak compared to light options. Simplest fixes are of course number fixes so either light damage needs to get slightly further reduced or heavies buffed.
One thing to keep in mind tho is that heavies do still give executions. Not important for 1v1 sure but in any 4v4 mode securing the execution is very important so there is still that purpose regardless.
how is that different from spamming lights with feints or better soft feints? it's 50/50s again but more often. Proper unblockable 50/50s at least not as spammy and offer more time to react. They just need to implement more defensive and offensive options. Look at JJ he has hyper armour, unblockable, unblockable soft feint, soft feints, dodge attack, i-frames, bashes, etc. Now look at PK, centurion, etc, for example. One has dodge attack and the other kick. Both have predictable soft-feints. Of course, at this point 50/50s will be frustrating. I am saying instead of releasing new heroes non-stop, first, fix the older characters. Give them more tools.KitingFatKidsEZ
I will instantly uninstall and never look back if the game turns into a spamfest of repeatable 50/50s as Highlander, Hitokiri, Warden have against certain characters.
If i want to play a coinflip simulator i can legit just do that without a PC.
Its ******g no skill braindead gameplay.
P.S. Fought with good JJ for an hour as Highlander. I won some matches but purely by learning my opponents habits and countering them, whereas he just played reactionary role by dodge attacking, feints, light attacking, etc. How the f*ck those fights will b fairer when he will be able to spam those attacks more and the first 100ms will be hidden?
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Highlander is very, very flawed and weak right now, fights against them mostly about just chasing them through the map once they left os, interrupting and parrying him as much as possible, and hitting him out asap if he somehow entered os, and if you do well, he will drop dead after a minute, if you did not, he will enter his mixup and delete your hp bar with a few 50/50s. He is a top concern character, who almost certainly needs a complete rework, so I don't think he is very good for checking how the TG changes would work. It is a sad fact that while heroes like Nobushi, Peacekeeper and Zhanhu became stronger a bit there, it doesn't help on HL. Defensive stance highlander is also terrible in spacing, one of the most easily usable and learnable counters against spam.
I found the changes very interesting, because the huge gaps between heroes are gone. Nobushi (!) has offense now, something she never had since people learned to parry her lights. Black Prior light-bash-light is not as oppressieve, it doesn't take a quearter of your health, you don't have to be pinpoint to dodge the bash due to the recovery changes, and BP finally has a motivation to use that undodgable heavy (and the light-unblockable is much stronger now too, I even have success with light-light chain).
Damage must be changed fairly, but that is the only concern I have witht entire tg.
There will always be people spamming, which is not fun to fight against, but once you understand how to counter it (like most midlevel players and above in season 1), they won't work. It is a bit sad though that you have to educate yourself about this and the game will teach nothing about recoveries.
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that's not exactly the case. Right now, when in defensive stance, we have a fair chance to parry or simply bait out light attacks by using back-light-heavy. 50/50 mixups are not guaranteed, you can dodge it, autoattack it or use dodge attack or simply roll away. That's what i like about HL that he relies on heavy attack damage to win the game, since I dislike spammy characters. When I mained aramusha, I never really done tempest that consist more than 2 attacks, because it can be easily parried and I just hated the idea.Highlander is very, very flawed and weak right now, fights against them mostly about just chasing them through the map once they left os, interrupting and parrying him as much as possible, and hitting him out asap if he somehow entered os, and if you do well, he will drop dead after a minute, if you did not, he will enter his mixup and delete your hp bar with a few 50/50s.
So, I really hope developers won't turn HL into light attack spammer and don't make light attacks so overpowered that HL has no fair chance to win; this is why HL can be considered good for testing the strength of light attacks. Just like you could have tested his mix ups with heroes that don't have dodge attack. Fair enough, when I played aramusha against shugoki/highlander, I was so frustrated, because developers were giving people dodge attacks, 50/50s and hyper armour, without compensating loss of offence and lack of defence to weaker heroes like aramusha.
Decreasing everyone's light attack or increasing Highlander's heavy attack would be a good start, if there is no proper rework on the way (which I doubt we will see any time soon. Centurion is still crying in the corner).
P.S. I am all for the changes to hidden 100ms and recovery timings. Other than that they gotta balance the power levels of heroes through stamina punishment, damage or rework.
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PT1) While I believe neutral light attacks are some what of a sore spot in TG I don't think they're close to beating out proper mix ups in terms of what's stronger. If anything were to "nerf" the viability from character specific mix ups i'd say that would be the prevalence of dodge attacks being more accessible/viable now. I both agree and disagree about heavies value with TG. Currently if a heavy lands the hitstun is long enough that characters with 400ms lights can't be dodged. So for those characters it's a mix up and gives the heavy value. If a heavy or unblockable heavy has access to a soft feint of some kind that also bolster's it's value. And HA heavies have value due to trading. I do think that there are a handful of heros where their heavies could use more value though.
Damage wise I think most heavies are in an alright spot. Specifically combo heavies. Can't speak to heavy openers. But heavy openers were probably a bit over nerfed to discourage light parrying as THE main way to get damage like on live. I can't speak on what values would be correct for which heros though. My game knowledge is not that good. I could see (for example) conq's top heavy doing too little damage. But I can also see the argument of it being fine. To answer your question though I can see your point in regards to 4's. And I think that parrying should take 40-50 stamina regardless of the parry. And I agree with reducing light damage. But just for neutral lights.
PT2) Well mechanically speaking HL can use his opening heavies to trade after a light chain, Goki can trade on reaction with his light and heavy HA, and LB can dodge shove since it has armor. Nobushi doesn't have anything like that. But she does have HS. I don't play her much. But i'd probably make her dodge canceling capabilities a bit better. And give some I frames to her back light. But for the most part you've listed heros who have issues from a design aspect. So they only reasonable answer I can give is give them reworks/updates.
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I was talking about landing heavies, not their use. In TG heavies are easier to react to and block or parry, but landing them nets you most of the time less damage than two lights. for HL it's 2 defensive lights or 3 offensive lights, to get close to the same value, yet you're risking GB or get hit out of it. Trading with follow up heavies is no longer than beneficial, cause they damage is lower than opening heavies. So, I would't bait and trade with berserker as Highlander. It is a bad idea on live, but in TG it's a recipe for a lost round.PT1) While I believe neutral light attacks are some what of a sore spot in TG I don't think they're close to beating out proper mix ups in terms of what's stronger. If anything were to "nerf" the viability from character specific mix ups i'd say that would be the prevalence of dodge attacks being more accessible/viable now. I both agree and disagree about heavies value with TG. Currently if a heavy lands the hitstun is long enough that characters with 400ms lights can't be dodged. So for those characters it's a mix up and gives the heavy value. If a heavy or unblockable heavy has access to a soft feint of some kind that also bolster's it's value. And HA heavies have value due to trading. I do think that there are a handful of heros where their heavies could use more value though.
Yeah, that's what I am talking about. That the current changes to combat system work against few heroes' design aspect.PT2) Well mechanically speaking HL can use his opening heavies to trade after a light chain, Goki can trade on reaction with his light and heavy HA, and LB can dodge shove since it has armor. Nobushi doesn't have anything like that. But she does have HS. I don't play her much. But i'd probably make her dodge canceling capabilities a bit better. And give some I frames to her back light. But for the most part you've listed heros who have issues from a design aspect. So they only reasonable answer I can give is give them reworks/updates.
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In all fairness, the Devs do not have a good record of reworking heroes, we had what, seven months where the game effectively was near unplayable because of how absurdly powerful raider became?Originally Posted by CandleInTheDark Go to original post
Or glad and his broken toe stabs
This list goes on for quite a while, the pattern tends to be rework a hero till they are broken overpowered or underpowered and then correct issues as they appear, this indicates a severe lack of play testing.
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They have tried that before, LawBringer lost his shove on block, his most useful tool and gained two tools, one just as broken and the other pointless, Light spam overheads (something he won't have soon) and the unblockable zone off parry, something nobody uses because it's pointless.Originally Posted by No0ne_- Go to original post
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Same. I like that people are more aggressive, but I wish to be aggressive too with my heroeKnight_Raime
Oh I see. My bad. Well. Yeah I do want light damage to be brought down a bit more at least from neutral chain lights.
And I agree I guess in a way about the second part. But i'd rather those heros be adjusted to fit this version better.
Failed rework doesn't mean they have to stop. They can test it on TG and see what is up, like with centurion. However, instead of designing new heroes, maps ,etc to bring in more money, it would have been better if just for half a year they focused on what we have already. So many people like centurion, but in duels he's too weak and in Dominion he's decent, but compared to said gladiator, he's just meh. Gladiator can duel well to "assassinate" someone and can also crowd control well.They have tried that before, LawBringer lost his shove on block, his most useful tool and gained two tools, one just as broken and the other pointless, Light spam overheads (something he won't have soon) and the unblockable zone off parry, something nobody uses because it's pointles
Yeah, they won't get any profits perhaps for so much work, but in the long run it might increase player base by considerable amount.
Senior Member
Lawbringer actually received a good rework, they just made some serious mistakes in his numbers. He actually has offense now, he can answer to bashes (before that, it was already gg if a conq was your opponent), he has useful lights (and he will still have lightspam in tg, all of them will be very fast with the sides enchanced), and the zone is a good tool in ganks (and that is his highest heavy parry punish). Shove on block was one of the most disgusting mechanics in the game, just like Shugoki/Shinobi superarmor, Conq's superblock and Raider dodge gb, things like these has no place in the game.Originally Posted by papa_joseph1 Go to original post
