New year, new ways to nerf shinobi. | Forums

[We.the.North]

ever since teh backflip distance nerf, pretty much all characters can punish a missed kick into backflip. A raider even managed to dodge GB me during the first backflip frames even tho raider's dodge GB was nerfed.

What I said is : In dominion (the only mode I play), almost 95% of my quad dash had people dodging after the first 2 dash. In theory, kick is reactable ; in practice (dominion), people fall for it about 95% of the time. It was an AWESOME tool to get rid of the last 25 hp of your opponent.

So yes, this is again a big nerf for us.

[Siegfried-Z]

I love it how people just talk about nerf on this poor Shinobi just like it doesnt matter because hey.. it's Shinobi.. a hero only used by a little amount of players because with a much more skills based kit than most heros ever had in this game.

Yes he was frustrating, yes, but didnt deserve to be considered like that. I've never got the hate arround him..

In another hand Raider was absolutly ruining the game for months while spamming the same **** .. it was especially a real nightmare on console and the nerf a bit too harsh he got was a worldclass disaster. Funny

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I love it how people just talk about nerf on this poor Shinobi just like it doesnt matter because hey.. it's Shinobi.. a hero only used by a little amount of players because with a much more skills based kit than most heros ever had in this game.

Yes he was frustrating, yes, but didnt deserve to be considered like that. I've never got the hate arround him..

In another hand Raider was absolutly ruining the game for months while spamming the same **** .. it was especially a real nightmare on console and the nerf a bit too harsh he got was a worldclass disaster. Funny

Well, during the summer, almost every second topic was about shinobi. I think I even commented on it how loud they were about it compared to others when they received their nerfs. Yes, he is slowly becoming more useless, he is in need of a total rework which will probably rebuild everything.

I wouldn't call him too skillbased though. Be out of range, use your optionselects with one of the highest deflect-parry punishes, spam the kick against heroes who can't punish you for it (before the nerf obv.), know a little about recoveries for your backflip ranged guardbreaks. And what is skillbased can be very subjective, for example, you wouldn't call Black Prior that, yet he is when you consider how many technical layers his bulwark stance has.

[Siegfried-Z]

Well, during the summer, almost every second topic was about shinobi. I think I even commented on it how loud they were about it compared to others when they received their nerfs. Yes, he is slowly becoming more useless, he is in need of a total rework which will probably rebuild everything.

I wouldn't call him too skillbased though. Be out of range, use your optionselects with one of the highest deflect-parry punishes, spam the kick against heroes who can't punish you for it (before the nerf obv.), know a little about recoveries for your backflip ranged guardbreaks. And what is skillbased can be very subjective, for example, you wouldn't call Black Prior that, yet he is when you consider how many technical layers his bulwark stance has.

Yes, i know, you even made an interesting rework suggestion.
Some heros already got big nerfs before, pk is an example.. but i am not sure a hero already got a that big one without any compensation and still keep being nerf update after update with absolutly no word about him being look at by the team. Anything but nerfs after nerfs on an already lacking kit still Alive because of his dmg and no communication about it. This is where come from the frustration for people Who likes shinobi.

About skills, i should word it differently, what i mean is the learning curve is longer with him than most heros. Same is true for HL for exemple and a bit for Conq as well.

BP may be very mix up intensive and has a lot of option including CC and recovery cancel which is rather skill as well i agree, but someone having no rep with him can still be decent just by spamming his bash combo at many levels.. not all levels of course but many while a beginner with Shino would have a very bad time.

[Vakris_One]

I love it how people just talk about nerf on this poor Shinobi just like it doesnt matter because hey.. it's Shinobi.. a hero only used by a little amount of players because with a much more skills based kit than most heros ever had in this game.

Yes he was frustrating, yes, but didnt deserve to be considered like that. I've never got the hate arround him..

In another hand Raider was absolutly ruining the game for months while spamming the same **** .. it was especially a real nightmare on console and the nerf a bit too harsh he got was a worldclass disaster. Funny

Being very frustrating to deal with for around 4-5 months versus being a literal cancer in the game that you weren't allowed to press buttons against for 2 years. If you're going to make that case then let's honestly examine which one of these two characters has historically been worse for the health of the game overall, shall we? Any guesses as to which one?

I also dispute your claim about Shinobi having a more skill based kit than most heroes. That's quite a subjective claim and I don't know what you consider to be "more skill based than most heroes" so you'll have to explain your reasoning there.

More importantly however, as Goat mentioned; these past few months there has been a huge upsurge in forum posts complaining about Shinobi's nerfs. It literally did reach a point where every second or third thread on the front page was a Shinobi one. I honestly don't remember there being such a loud and prolonged outcry even for PK or Warlord's absolutely crippling nerfs back in the day. Not to mention that so much of this noise has been coming from such a small handful of posters on here. Does anyone spare a thought about Nobushi by the way? A character that was also heavily nerfed without compensation and is arguably in a worse state than Shinobi but just isn't lucky enough to have any mains on this particular forum spamming daily/weekly threads about her.

I mean seriously. It's high time for certain individuals on this forum who are under this "Shinobi mania" to get a cold sobering splash of reality and get some perspective on the matter. There is not a single veteran player of this game that hasn't had to deal with their main being in a less than satisfactory state. Shinobi players are not an exception to this nor are they some sort of cross bearing martyrs. Almost every vanilla and Year 1 DLC hero has been there.

Either, deal with it and accept that a rework will come whenever it comes. Choose another hero to play, there's currently 25 of them to pick from. Or, if the frustration that so many of us; your fellow FH gamers have also had to bear is too much for you, then simply move on from For Honor.

[Knight_Raime]

I love it how people just talk about nerf on this poor Shinobi just like it doesnt matter because hey.. it's Shinobi.. a hero only used by a little amount of players because with a much more skills based kit than most heros ever had in this game.

Yes he was frustrating, yes, but didnt deserve to be considered like that. I've never got the hate arround him..

In another hand Raider was absolutly ruining the game for months while spamming the same **** .. it was especially a real nightmare on console and the nerf a bit too harsh he got was a worldclass disaster. Funny

The difference is Shinobi was and in some ways still has been busted since his release which has been about 2 years. Raider's buffed state as obnoxious as it might have been to deal with was never anywhere close to the level of damaging for the game's health compared to Shinobi.

It really isn't hard at all to figure out why Shinobi is viewed the way he is. I'm sure you've seen Freeze's video about his busted state. How can anything Shinobi used to be capable of doing be fairly or accurately compared to raider spamming blind? I think it's less of you not understanding and more so your own perspective. You didn't have to deal with an optimal playing Shinobi so it's hard for you to grasp the issues completely. Or maybe you have and you just don't find it to be as annoying.

My memory isn't what it used to be. But Shinobi has never received any major nerf without compensation beyond his kick being nerfed as he launched for full population to have access to. That nerf removed the kick's viability which was the only thing he ever had to be compared to viable offense. Every other change he's received has been fixes to actual problematic issues. And in all this time the devs have still not done anything to his damage. Which continues to be a major painpoint.


Still, I wouldn't classify Shinobi as gutted even in this day and age. There has only been 3 maaaaaaybe 4 heros that have ever been gutted by the developers. That would be PK, Warlord, and Nobushi. It's understandable that Shinobi mains might be upset at the treatment the hero gets. But every single character has had that spotlight. And the amount of shinobi complainers is about the same amount as orochi at this point imo. it's very tiring. Both are still perfectly usable heros. People just need to either move on to a different hero or deal until a rework happens. And if ya can't then maybe don't play for honor until it happens.

[Vendelkin]

I personally think shinobi's gutting has in fact been more extreme than any other character.

Yes pk, warlord had some rough times, but relative to the balance of the game in those times the disparity wasn't as big AND the actual list of nerfs wasn't as long.

Many of shinobis nerfs were needed but when damage is all you get compensated with your character ends up very flat and weak.

His win loss displacement currently is also the biggest I've ever seen and that was pre his most recent nerfs.

-lost pin ability for team combos (sickle rain) necessary.

-lost slide functionality. Necessary

-lost back-flip effectiveness and use as a trading tool.

-has now lost kick to a certain degree.

-loss of quad dodge.

-loss of range for ranged attacks

His kit has been gutted. Much needed to go cause there were exploits but he does need some new identity tools. I very much think he has been more gutted than any other hero in cumulus. Hes basically just a deflect bot now.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I think that Peacekeeper, Centurion, Shinobi, Aramusha, Orochi, Shugoki, Jormungandr, Nobushi and Highlander all need major attention asap, and people only care about which one of those are the most thrash is because we full well know that the developers are incapable doing more than 2, maybe 3 of them at the same time, and we all hope that our main will be the one finally receiving that attention, while we do not care that much about others (I always found Shinobi disappaeling every way possible, therefore I obviously care less about him than about Peacekeeper, whom I maxed, or about Centurion, whom I would like to play and love the design, but always found his crippling weaknesses too terrifying to actually play him).

If we analyze it without past history, Shinobi is an extremely boring hero without any effective offense, but totally busted defense and defensive rewards, and actual tools to punish all types of offense, including the best bashes (though I have seem priors dodging out from the dodge kick in time after a missed bash, I am unsure). It is something that shouldn't be, no heroes should be broken in one area and useless in an other. It is still far better than what it used to be, the most irritating thing in the game was duelling prenerf shinobi in the hands of a somewhat decent player, but not good.

If the devs seriously want it to be a fighting game taken seriously, they should act on the problems as soon as possible. We have less and less new things in the game (okay, I can buy one new execution, I already have 10, I won't be able to use them all either way), and if even the core is so badly designed, I don't know what else do they expect.

[We.the.North]

I personally think shinobi's gutting has in fact been more extreme than any other character.

Yes pk, warlord had some rough times, hut relative to the bakance of the game in those times the disparity wasnt as big AND the actual list of nerfs wasnt as long.

Many of shinobis nerfs were needed but when damage is all you get compemsated with your character ends up very flat and weak.

His win loss displacement currently is also the biggest ive ever seen and that was pre his most recent nerfs.

-lost pin ability for team combos (sickle rain) necessary.

-lost slide functionality. Necessary

-lost backflip effectiveness and use as a trading tool.

-has now lost kick to a certain degree.

-loss of quad dodge.

-loss of range for ranged attacks

His kit has been gutted. Much needed to go cause there were exploits but he does need some new identity tools. I very much think he has been more gutted than any other hero in cumulus. Hes basically just a deflect bot now.

You also forget to mention all the buffs other characters received that prevent many moves the Shinobi has from even working as intended, the two biggest being :

#1 : Recovery frames for A LOT of attacks other heroes have made it a lot harder to land a ranged GB in ganks ... some characters are even almost 100% immune to the ranged GB (LB, Aramusha, Kensei, Gladiator, Shaman, etc.)

#2 : Attacks for the 2nd hit in many chains were sped up to 400ms or even faster for some heroes. The 2nd attack is now so fast it'll hit the Shinobi before he can double dodge + kick. Since they removed the hyper / super armor on kick, the result is : The Shinobi is the ONLY character in the game with a dodge attack working "some of the time" when actually dodging an attack.

Anything but nerfs after nerfs on an already lacking kit still Alive because of his dmg and no communication about it. This is where come from the frustration for people Who likes shinobi.

100 times this. I have grown a profound hatred toward's Ubisoft inability to balance their game or even communicate their intention. That inability to balance / design a game is further improved by other titles I like, for exemple : Heroes of might and magic franchise (a disaster since the VI one) ; attempt at a new IP Heroes of Might and Magic : Showdown (actually removed and refunded from Steam) ; etc. Fun fact, I held the #1 position on Showdown's ladder for about 2 months before they cancelled the game and as a "thank you", Ubisoft sent me a chrome keyboard. Thanks I guess :P

Ubisoft is now 3 IPs : Assassin's Creed, Far Cry, Rainbow Six. (other IPs doesn't have enough notoriety to be note worthy... like watch dog, or completely failed lately and are now a shadow of what they used to be, like Heroes of might and magic) 1-2 of those games get released every year and are so much of the same ****, players are starting to not give a damn about Ubisoft anymore. Also, poor design, no innovation, obvious paid fake accounts spamming their own forums with overly positive feedback, etc.

Ubisoft is a joke. I'm playing sporadically waiting for other titles and hoping for a Shinobi buff, but I've completely lost faith in Ubisoft. I'm super glad I got For Honor for free (I used to work for Ubisoft Montreal and still have friends there. Ubisoft give 3 games every year at chrismass to their employee and my friends cared so little about other Ubisoft games that they gave me one of their free game lol).

[Goat_of_Vermund]

You also forget to mention all the buffs other characters received that prevent many moves the Shinobi has from even working as intended, the two biggest being :

#1 : Recovery frames for A LOT of attacks other heroes have made it a lot harder to land a ranged GB in ganks ... some characters are even almost 100% immune to the ranged GB (LB, Aramusha, Kensei, Gladiator, Shaman, etc.)

#2 : Attacks for the 2nd hit in many chains were sped up to 400ms or even faster for some heroes. The 2nd attack is now so fast it'll hit the Shinobi before he can double dodge + kick. Since they removed the hyper / super armor on kick, the result is : The Shinobi is the ONLY character in the game with a dodge attack working "some of the time" when actually dodging an attack.




100 times this. I have grown a profound hatred toward's Ubisoft inability to balance their game or even communicate their intention. That inability to balance / design a game is further improved by other titles I like, for exemple : Heroes of might and magic franchise (a disaster since the VI one) ; attempt at a new IP Heroes of Might and Magic : Showdown (actually removed and refunded from Steam) ; etc. Fun fact, I held the #1 position on Showdown's ladder for about 2 months before they cancelled the game and as a "thank you", Ubisoft sent me a chrome keyboard. Thanks I guess :P

Ubisoft is now 3 IPs : Assassin's Creed, Far Cry, Rainbow Six. (other IPs doesn't have enough notoriety to be note worthy... like watch dog, or completely failed lately and are now a shadow of what they used to be, like Heroes of might and magic) 1-2 of those games get released every year and are so much of the same ****, players are starting to not give a damn about Ubisoft anymore. Also, poor design, no innovation, obvious paid fake accounts spamming their own forums with overly positive feedback, etc.

Ubisoft is a joke. I'm playing sporadically waiting for other titles and hoping for a Shinobi buff, but I've completely lost faith in Ubisoft. I'm super glad I got For Honor for free (I used to work for Ubisoft Montreal and still have friends there. Ubisoft give 3 games every year at chrismass to their employee and my friends cared so little about other Ubisoft games that they gave me one of their free game lol).

I always forget that Heroes of Migth and Magic is also Ubisoft. The 4th was even more horribly balanced than For Honor, their biggest public map had 6 of the 8 players receiving a fortress without walls which the other 2 had, and if you did not pick the necromancers who kept making the absolutely unbeatable vampires every fight, it was sure you will lose, everyone else was vastly inferior to everything necromancy could offer.


Regarding For Honor, the balance is indeed terrible. I really have to think that there are multiple branches working on heroes, because I can't believe that the people deciding that pk's opener lights must be 14 damage from 13 because 15 would be too much are the same who released the disgusting mess called raider rework, and let him keep his dodge guardbreak to ensure he won't be too weak (lol, what kind of idiot thought that his absolutely busted rework won't be enough in itself, he also need 43 damage punishes on every bash on reaction?).