I think both of them need work, but only minimal: the spine is fine, healthy and strong, only the ribcage needs work to function better than someone recently ran over by a herd of Shugoki.
Peacekeeper:
Problems:
1. Low damage.
2. Weak mixups and some unthreatening tools.
3. No pressure
Changes:
1. Top heavy finishers are unblockable. No reason for them to not be, dagger cancel is useless on them, and Raider also has a similar GB softfeint on his unblockable, with the stuntap still an option (which is still better than dc).
2. Remove the zone's second part. It is such a terrible move that it would be a buff on stamina consumption. Change zone damage to 13 if it would be too much in itself. Also, let it start chains.
3. Finally, change damage values a bit: deep gouge to 1+5 (down from 1+10, 1/s bleed from 2/s bleed), side heavy opener to 25 (up from 20), top heavy opener to 28 (up from 23), heavy finishers to 32 (up from 27), dodge attack to 20 (up from 17). The reason is simple: direct damage is affected by multipliers (revenge, buffs, feats, perks), while bleed doesn't, and it gives more execution chances.
Zhanhu:
Problems:
- Reactable finishers
- Poor risk vs reward offense with low damage
- incomplete pressure
Changes:
1. Change the unblockable light's animation to a similar spin the unblockable heavy has. I am generally bad at parrying (keep struggling with Shugoki), and even I can easily tell the difference between them.
2. Either don't grant a light parry punish on the light finisher, or make it deal very high damage (25-27). I think it deals around 20 now, which is not enough for the risk of taking 40.
3. Make his/her unblockable finishers immedietely restart the offense.
4. The side dodge attacks should deal more damage, around 18. Even if they are fast, nobody will use a 14 damage move which has a 40 damage punish. It doesn't work like a normal unreactable light, it is more likely to be parries, so 18 should be the punish.
5. Finally, make the deflect punch deal 15 damage. It is pathetic right now with no dsmage.
Would help PK some, Zhanhu too, but I personally think both are maybe not the right direction. For PK, I see more problems with how easy it is to defend against dagger cancels. So change cancel to any direction would be nice in itsself. Now just let PK deal some serious bonus damage against bleeding opponents (with all attacks) and she should be fine besides a few "old generation character problems". More concrete: your bleed can now hit from every direction. Maybe even make the time you can cancel a little wider. Damage PK deals to bleeding opponents is increased by 25%, additional bleeds deal 50% increased damage. At least for me this would keep her as the agile assassin, make her more lethal, without making it seem weird that her daggers can't be blocked by a large kite shield.
Nevertheless, for me, it would be hard to say if this would be the "real" fix for her.Or maybe just overkill. Peacekeeper though is like .. the sneaky bleeding incarnate. If you already got to weaken your opponent, chances you win go up. Of course, maybe numbers don't fit, but the duality: your opponent is worried due to your temporary higher damage output, you yourself know: I need to get those hit's in now! Might work like a charm, might be something people hate, i dunno :3
For Zhanhu, he first needs his bugs fixed. Then, if someone is able to read the animation, that means congrats to the fight team. They did one hell of a amazing job. That a mixup doesn't work is not due to good animations. It is due to good reactability. Of course, Animations do play into this. But as you said, risk vs reward ratio is skewed, especially due to the ease of dealing with his mixup. And you did not even adress the 50/50 what is "on reaction dealing" with his dodge attack. Just parry one side, the timing is freakin easy. Even if you can't do it on indicator, managing a parry on some timing of his dodge is enough.
So to fix Zhanhu, besides fixing all the Hitbox crap and tracking issues, the following steps might help:
Change hit type of dodge attacks to heavy with appropriate reaction on parry OR change damage output to a more appropriate value. Extending the dodge with extra iframes and a larger window to go into the dodge attack though would be a perfect solution (damage adjustments might still be nice, but oh well). However, this would mean some work; I doubt this would happen.
For his mixup we just have to take a step back and see why and where it doesn't work. So .. it doesn't work against anyone who can read animations and can react to 600ms stuff. 600ms .. well, everyone can react to it by now. Reading animations; a lot of long-time-players are capable of doing so.
So we only got a few viable solutions. The strongest mixups right now are ALL bash-based. Reason is that it can't be parried and thus overall is considered to be harder to react against.
Possibly fix 1: Zhanhu gets the ability to perform is deflect bash as chain finisher. Zhanhu gets the ability to feint his heavy finishers into his deflect-bash. Zhanhu's light finisher is no longer unblockable, but therefore 500ms and undodgeable.
Now you got a real mixup that is relatively danagerous but doesn't yet net you any guaranteed damage - already pretty nice. With the option to feint the heavy into the light finisher, it would be even more interesting.
Finally, change his on deflect version of the bash and let him cause a little damage or at east drain more stamina.
Zhanhu fixed.
For PK i agree with an UB finisher and her zone not having a second part.
But then her zone should not be 400ms anymore but 500ms and give a heavy parry if parried.
Cuz if not, offensivly speaking she would become very strong with enhanced light opener, 400ms chain light and UB finisher while defensivly she would still have a 400ms option select and then starting chain .. she just would be unstopable.. especially if she get the dmg buff you are suggesting which are a lot too high Imo.
PK dmg are fine.. i've always said she needed love but her dmg are fine. If we could buff her in this area i would just increase the direct dmg part of some moove and reduce the bleed part.
About Zhanhu, i agree with everything except the dmg on the light finisher and Dodge attack.
Using a light always have a risk of being punished.. its the same for every heros so i disagree with an UB light being more than 25dmg.
I would instead just speed up the Ub light to 566ms. As for his side Dodge attack which are 400ms and have 2 directions, i would not buff them more than 1 or 2 dmg.
But something i would add to Zhanhu is a 500ms zone.
zhanhu seems kinda extreme tho, making him at max an A tier character, but probably a mid B, is really cool, im always into making each hero really good, but from i've read you kinda negated all his risks, making side dodges be as fast as 400ms (which btw most pc player still can't reacy(below plat) and be a heavy parry reward.Originally Posted by Goat_of_Vermund Go to original post
His side attacks could be 22 or so but still lights.
About the light finisher dealing 17/18 damage or whatever to boost it to a cent heavy but with unblockable properties is kinda extreme, making it 20-23 is already quite huge for such a powerful light that can cleave.
also want to point out, lawbringer, highlander and aramusha are the only heroes which deal a true 40 on light parries, most deal 25-35 so the risk really depends on what you are facing.
deflect felt useless and i totally agree with making it deal some damage but i'd rather see it guarantee a light finisher.
and that said, offense should continue even after a finisher but only with the zone attack or dodge cancel, i don't think you should instantly chain into other neutral attacks(i didn't fully understand what you meant so i guess it also applies to neutral attacks, sorry if it didn't)
oh and on peace keeper, those values for top finishers are really out of this world, 32 is alot but look at valk, she has 32 but some options, i'd rather have her deal a normalized 30 on all finishers but the top heavy is like really slow (1000ms-1100ms) but you can soft feint to the sides with a bleed cancel or even the improved zone.
as amon said, zone should be 500ms, damage on it should be 20 as warden's, there is literally no way in making her so weak, she already lacks alot of offense.
top heavy unblockable sounds really good if you got options out of it.
and finally, want to say one more thing about the zone and how her bleed works. Many people see her as a better nobushi at applying bleeds but she is different and has a different play style.
making her bleed so important and so strong could completely kill nobushi and her use.
but besides all, her zones should be a full bleed (1+19 over 3s (6,6,7)
On pk, I actually listed damage nerfs, the dodge attacks would be weaker, the other heavies would merely deal more direct damage and less bleed damage, soething that would for example when you are already in revenge mode, because pk barely becomes any stronger with revenge.Originally Posted by Siegfried-Z Go to original post
Maybe slowing down the zone a bit wouldn't hurt, but 500ms is too much. To be honest, my opponents already have no problem with parrying my zone if I am baited into an optionselect every time, if her zone remains 400ms but deals far less damage, it will be fair. The current pk at full stamina has a stronger defense, and I never have a problem getting through that defense.
I also disagree on the light finisher. If we check the numbers, zhanhu gets 20 if the light goes through, 35 if the heavy, whle he suffers around 35 if the light is parries, 20 is the heavy. If we also consider that there are optionselects beating both, think there should be at least more reward than risk.
Would help PK some, Zhanhu too, but I personally think both are maybe not the right direction. For PK, I see more problems with how easy it is to defend against dagger cancels. So change cancel to any direction would be nice in itsself. Now just let PK deal some serious bonus damage against bleeding opponents (with all attacks) and she should be fine besides a few "old generation character problems". More concrete: your bleed can now hit from every direction. Maybe even make the time you can cancel a little wider. Damage PK deals to bleeding opponents is increased by 25%, additional bleeds deal 50% increased damage. At least for me this would keep her as the agile assassin, make her more lethal, without making it seem weird that her daggers can't be blocked by a large kite shield.
Nevertheless, for me, it would be hard to say if this would be the "real" fix for her.Or maybe just overkill. Peacekeeper though is like .. the sneaky bleeding incarnate. If you already got to weaken your opponent, chances you win go up. Of course, maybe numbers don't fit, but the duality: your opponent is worried due to your temporary higher damage output, you yourself know: I need to get those hit's in now! Might work like a charm, might be something people hate, i dunno :3
For Zhanhu, he first needs his bugs fixed. Then, if someone is able to read the animation, that means congrats to the fight team. They did one hell of a amazing job. That a mixup doesn't work is not due to good animations. It is due to good reactability. Of course, Animations do play into this. But as you said, risk vs reward ratio is skewed, especially due to the ease of dealing with his mixup. And you did not even adress the 50/50 what is "on reaction dealing" with his dodge attack. Just parry one side, the timing is freakin easy. Even if you can't do it on indicator, managing a parry on some timing of his dodge is enough.
So to fix Zhanhu, besides fixing all the Hitbox crap and tracking issues, the following steps might help:
Change hit type of dodge attacks to heavy with appropriate reaction on parry OR change damage output to a more appropriate value. Extending the dodge with extra iframes and a larger window to go into the dodge attack though would be a perfect solution (damage adjustments might still be nice, but oh well). However, this would mean some work; I doubt this would happen.
For his mixup we just have to take a step back and see why and where it doesn't work. So .. it doesn't work against anyone who can read animations and can react to 600ms stuff. 600ms .. well, everyone can react to it by now. Reading animations; a lot of long-time-players are capable of doing so.
So we only got a few viable solutions. The strongest mixups right now are ALL bash-based. Reason is that it can't be parried and thus overall is considered to be harder to react against.
Possibly fix 1: Zhanhu gets the ability to perform is deflect bash as chain finisher. Zhanhu gets the ability to feint his heavy finishers into his deflect-bash. Zhanhu's light finisher is no longer unblockable, but therefore 500ms and undodgeable.
Now you got a real mixup that is relatively danagerous but doesn't yet net you any guaranteed damage - already pretty nice. With the option to feint the heavy into the light finisher, it would be even more interesting.
Finally, change his on deflect version of the bash and let him cause a little damage or at east drain more stamina.
Zhanhu fixed.
An omnidirection dagger cancel for pk might be good too, especially if all are 400ms, but I would refrain from the damage buff on the bleed. That's nobu's thing, enchanced lights are already good enough, the problem is, she can't really make people play on their toes, because there is no pressure. A zone that doesn't eat up all your stamina and an unblockable potentially would, and honestly, it would create a more interesting gameplay than always fishing for those dagger cancels.
On zhanhu, you are wrong on the numbers. Warden, Kensei and I tink Shugoki all deal 40 damage on a light parry, and most heroes deal 35. And Centurion heavy finisher is not 25 damage, it is at least 30 and currently grants an other 35, so I don't think they are even remotely close (that heavy finisher is bad because of other things). And no, I would either buff the damage OR make it a heavy parry punish on dodge attacks, not both. And they are reactable: I see him dodge, I decide to parry a side, I get it for 50%, and I will deal more damage to him than he on me.Originally Posted by Okt0g00N Go to original post
I did not buff the damage on pk. I took 5 bleed from Deep Gouge, which is guaranteed for all heavy attacks, making it 1+5 from 1+10. I gave that direct 5 damage to all his heavies, excluding the dodge attacks, which, in my opinion, might be too strong against bash based offense (currently 28 damage dealt on reaction to a basher). I also elaborated why it would be a good change to make his heavy finishers deal 32 damage with 1+5 following, it would simply make her revenge game more worthwhile. She might have the worst revenge buffs in the entire game