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  1. #1

    Upcoming Patch will destroy Conqueror's Exceptional Defense

    In the upcoming patch, the charged heavy opener for Conqueror will be nerfed so that there will be a minimum amount of time before the heavy charging state can be canceled. While I haven't seen a solid number yet, this delay will most likely be enough to guarantee the opponent a feign into guard break and that would render the charged heavy no longer an option select.

    Now I believe this is actually a good change as the charged heavy option select is very safe and consumes minimal stamina. However, Conqueror's playstyle is heavily reliant on constantly defending with a variety of good option selects and whittling the opponent down with low damage punishes. With no changes to compensate (i.e. better damage) this could be disastrous.

    Remaining Option Selects

    While it can be pointed out that Conqueror will still have a solid number of option selects, most of them can be dealt in the same way which is to simply wait after a feint and react accordingly.

    • Side Dodge Shield Bash
      This OS will either dodge an attack or will (unreliably) beat a hard feint into GB on a strict timing. The opponent can beat this OS by waiting after a feint and back dodging on reaction to seeing the side dodge from Conqueror. If Conqueror commits to a shield bash, they will whiff in front of the opponent for an easy GB.
    • Superior Block on Heavy Startup
      This OS will either block a light or heavy attack (opponent will block the heavy in time if they did a light attack) on a very strict 2 frame (30 FPS) timing or will beat a feign into guard break. The opponent can beat this OS by waiting after a feint and parrying the heavy.
    • Zone Attack
      This OS will either parry an attack, beat a feint into GB, or block a feint into a different direction attack. It's a very low 10 damage if the zone hits and consumes a large amount of stamina. The opponent can beat this OS by waiting after a feint and parrying the zone attack on reaction.
    • Forward Shield Bash + Heavy Bind (New)
      This is actually very new tech that exists for many different classes with dodge attacks. It will either parry an attack or hit the opponent with a shield bash if they feinted. An opponent will be able to beat this OS by waiting after a feint to see a forward dodge, they should immediately side dodge for a guaranteed GB.


    Even just parrying will be cumbersome

    Conqueror, being the only class without a standard feint, will now be locked into some animation for simply doing a parry attempt that doesn't connect. Whereas every other class simply feints their parry attempt and goes on their way, Conqueror will be stuck actually throwing the heavy, canceling into a full block which is a lot slower than a feint, or getting stuck in the heavy charging state because of this change. This could be really horrific depending on how badly the fight team implements the change.

    Makes the class obsolete vs Black Prior

    Black Prior's offense is light years ahead of Conqueror's in effectiveness and safety. Prior's damage is much better than Conqueror's. Prior is much easier to play overall and doesn't have any of Conqueror's less favorable quirks such as the lack of a standard feint. Conqueror's only advantage was better defense but with this change, it's hard to justify how it would remain the case, when Prior has a lot of the same defensive properties.

    Other than way better aesthetics, there's no reason to main Conqueror instead of Black Prior at this point.
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  2. #2
    Black Prior actually looks and sound better too (and have more than one voice line), so not a single reason I guess.

    Honestly, conqueror finally needs a real offense. Along with centurion and peacekeeper, he is one of the characters who has a clear identity during emotes and executions (monstrous strenght, brutality, unbreakable, though af), but in reality, nothing transfers. Hardhitter, right?
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  3. #3
    Assuming the minimum time to feint out of charge is actually considerable then yes, I agree that conq's overall strong defense will mostly be in check. I'd still like his GB vulnerability on his heavies to be brought up (and any heavy for that matter that's got an exceptionally low GB vulnerability.) But that's really the only other nerf I think he needs. He should be getting significant buffs asap.

    Also minor correction. Centurion at least as of the version we played on TG still has his dumb wind up on his opening heavy even if you buffer a feint input after a normal heavy input. This makes his feint into parry/gb game pretty bad. Not as bad as conq because he gets a soft feint into GB. But still bad. Conq should get a standard feint. and Centurion should get that mandatory wind up removed.
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Goat_of_Vermund Go to original post
    Black Prior actually looks and sound better too (and have more than one voice line), so not a single reason I guess.
    It's 2 voice lines and it's the only voice lines Conqueror needs.

    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Also minor correction. Centurion at least as of the version we played on TG still has his dumb wind up on his opening heavy even if you buffer a feint input after a normal heavy input. This makes his feint into parry/gb game pretty bad. Not as bad as conq because he gets a soft feint into GB. But still bad. Conq should get a standard feint. and Centurion should get that mandatory wind up removed.
    I think the devs are fairly determined to keep Conqueror from having a standard feint even though it's the root of a lot of problems.
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  5. #5
    EvoX.'s Avatar Senior Member
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    This entirely depends on what they mean by ''cancel''. If it means just the regular input, then it's not that impactful, all he loses is his most broken and unpunishable OS. You cannot punish Charge + Cancel on light parry timing by anything except a 400ms softfeint. But if that cancel includes all his branching options... his dodge cancel, instant All Block, regular 100ms guard switch for superior blocking softfeints, Zone, Shield Uppercut, even when you can release the heavy, if all those things are affected by the delay then it's a ridiculous nerf.
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  6. #6
    I feel like conq needs something for his offense similar to nuxia's traps, given his choice of weapon.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by EvoX. Go to original post
    This entirely depends on what they mean by ''cancel''. If it means just the regular input, then it's not that impactful, all he loses is his most broken and unpunishable OS. You cannot punish Charge + Cancel on light parry timing by anything except a 400ms softfeint. But if that cancel includes all his branching options... his dodge cancel, instant All Block, regular 100ms guard switch for superior blocking softfeints, Zone, Shield Uppercut, even when you can release the heavy, if all those things are affected by the delay then it's a ridiculous nerf.
    Yes sadly we didn't get as much detail as I would like to have because Stefan had to waste time explaining what an option select is to the audience of a fighting game.

    My assumption for this thread was that only the cancel to neutral with the regular input would be affected which is still a significant (though justified) hit to the defense, but I wouldn't be shocked if the developers implement this in a way that those other things are delayed as well, which is the worst case scenario. It would be consistent to how they ruined full block canceling all the back in season 5.

    Originally Posted by Velentix Go to original post
    I feel like conq needs something for his offense similar to nuxia's traps, given his choice of weapon.
    That just gave me a godlike idea. The charged heavy should yoink people like Nuxia's heavy finisher. Throw them into a wall and guarantee a top heavy. Good work, Velentix.

    Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
    That is a very good move from the devs part. Conq had overtuned defense now all we need is to give him some viable offense now
    It's a good change but they should really be paired with other changes to keep the character balanced.
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by ArchDukeInstinct Go to original post
    That just gave me a godlike idea. The charged heavy should yoink people like Nuxia's heavy finisher. Throw them into a wall and guarantee a top heavy. Good work, Velentix
    The flail wraps around an arm or something, does some damage, and let's you throw them? That sounds...pretty fun actually, if that becomes a thing I might have to start repping conq.
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  9. #9
    Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
    Even better flail wraps around the weapon and pulls the char to the conq conq head buts him or shield bash hows that?
    That is tempting, but I think I'd rather be able to swing my flail and throw my enemy into another or into a wall or off a ledge. Maybe you throw him forwards or sideways for a wallsplat, but instead of throwing backwards you hit him with your shield/head? Dont know if that's something the devs could do, but it'd be pretty cool.
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  10. #10
    The last thing Conq needs is more defense. This is the best thing they can do to nerf Conq without making him complete trash. Apart from shield bash spam, no one uses his offense at all.
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