In order to be good at this game you need to have an understanding of the core mechanics. Parrying a 500ms lite is very easy and does not make you good at this game. Some people are able to articulate their understanding better. I for one have a hard time with that, but that doesn't mean I or Vendelkin (who can articulate his point much better than I can) lack understanding of this game.Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
Correct.Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
I do not know for sure you intend this to come off as passive aggressive or not, but it seems like your "need" may still come from the fact that you tend to disagree with me in most of our interactions.Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
I too have a broad handle on the metrics of the game, I have been an active reader and occasional participator in the competitive for honor reddit and discords also since their conception, and generally speaking I know my stuff tho sometimes i get things wrong (like in the BP thread the other day and I hate my ms speeds wrong for BPs BW entry and exit timings simply because i missed that update. And regardless I shouldn't need to validate my statements with credentials in such manner, but there i go being the hypocrite and doing just that.
The point is: just listen to people with respect instead of just immediately discrediting them because they disagree with someone you uphold in the community.
And further, Don't trust everything you hear from those members of the community that simply talk the most, or are generally right.
If you want to have an argument with me dig into the metrics and systems of the game yourself and do so. Don't argue pointlessly and then copout at the end by saying someone else might know better than you how to defend your points.
Its a bad mentality in politics and here to blindly follow in any manner.
EDIT * i should say tho that it is admirable to admit when something exceeds ones knowledge or skill and leave an argument then. that is totally fine.
Tozens kick would be great yeah, And probably fairly easy to animate since its already in the game.Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
but as far as implementation code? no adjusting the code of the game so Orochi's deflect could respond to specific frames of unblockables would probably be far easier and require less resources than implementing tozens kick in a balanced and safe way. All that would be needed to implement deflect interaction with unblockables would be a flag setting function that could be copy pasted across the board to trigger a routine in orochis deflect function.
Yeah that is trueOriginally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post![]()
@Vendelkin
Man this is exhausting. I'm just going to only tackle snippets. But dude. Seriously if i'm THAT annoying to you don't go out of your way to talk to me. Do what literally every other person here who couldn't stand me and just move on. Maybe the reason why my position seems to change depending on the subject matter is because opinions generally aren't blanket statements? Maybe the reason why you liked my posts at the beginning wasn't because I was correct but because you didn't know the game as well as I did. Maybe now the reason why you take issues with my posts isn't because i'm illinformed/ignorant. But that you've grown into your own and we're comparable knowledge wise and we simply have a difference of opinion? Anyway, with that uneeded aspects of your reply out of the way.
How is this metrically viable tho compared to a parry? Its just not. The only rare situation this is valuable is when that 50 guarantees the kill when parrying wouldn't, but going for that 50 is still a huge risk as it can be dodged, flipped, and countered in and of itself cause no portion of it is guaranteed, even the 35 dmg isnt guaranteed depending on the matchup.
See, I have two major issues here. The first is you and others pretending like parries are infallable. You can be interrupted in a tame fight or gank situation when a parry occurs preventing damage from happening. This is the case for any punish mechanic. You pretend like Parrying is an absolute solid defense in team fights. When the defacto best way to avoid damage is to literally dodge since external attacks play a big factor. Parrying is often your third form of defense in a gank setup scenario and that's really only if you absolutely need it to survive because dodging out of the way isn't possible and attacking to interrupt a GB/cgb setup is deemed to risky. Is parrying safer than a deflect in a broad sense? Yes. but the gap between the two is no where near as big as people pretend it to be.
The second issue is "it can be avoided/countered." No duh. So is misreading a situation and going for an improper parry. You're meant to do orochi's heavy deflect to specifically trade with an attack. You have to know if your trade won't also net the enemy a follow up hit. Or know that you could potentially even interrupt a follow up hit from occuring if you soft feint into the weaker deflect. It is indeed situational. And that's the point of deflecting.
This is again just simply not true.
I'm not responding to a majority of this as it's just utter nonsensical fluff attempting to make your case. From the get I was entirely talking about the successful trade of 50 damage. There are very few moves individually that hit anywhere close to that kind of damage. So unless you happened to have traded with a move that has a quick follow up that would be guaranteed on you going for 50 damage that will land because you're trading is most certainly worth it. Also since dodge attacks exist dodges can serve as option selects. So your whole shpeel of "committing to a weak defensive action" is utter trash.
Go look up the metrics of their punishes and do some HP comparison math.
I already had someone take every deflect punish in the game, every full block punish in the game, and every parry punish both light and heavy in the game and made a comparison. Strictly from a damage perspective outside of a few heros deflects hit harder than basically all heavy parries. Same goes with full blocks (though they have more worse options.) Deflects either hit the average of light parry damage or higher in some cases. There are obvious outliers here like aramusha and lawbringer. But those are exceptions and not the rule. My WHOLE point was from a pure damage perspective. And you're attempting to refute the legitimate numbers of the situation simply because it's your OPINION that the "difficulty" and "risk" of deflects somehow invalidates said numbers.
Again this analysis omits other key data points, such as...
None of which are relevant for the point I was making. I'm fully aware that it's inherently more difficult to deflect compared to parrying. I'm also painfully aware that deflecting in situations beyond single pick scenarios is not very viable. Do you know what else isn't? Full block. Know why? Because these are situational tools. Not meant to be used frequently. If you need to protect yourself in a 4's scenario you dodge first. if that is not deemed doable you attack to deter the cgb/gb gank. If that is not doable or you need revenge to live you parry. This is a rule 90% of the cast has to adhere to 90% of the time. Assassins are not special cases just because they're no longer the meta class.
Thats just blatantly incorrect. Think about it. How would this make "assassins better than your standard hero?" ESPECIALLY if two already exist that can do this...
It's almost like changing a whole class of characters has bigger implications than having said situation only apply to a few specific scenarios. Weird huh?
You can respond or don't. Im frankly tired of dealing with you. So im just going to ignore you.
For your first response the devs and my response is to simply tell you to learn the match ups. The devs want you to learn what moves you can safely deflect without encurring a follow up option. You raise a fair point that deflects in general have less options to deflect now compared to back in the day. And i'm not against the idea of making deflects feel better in a general sense. I just don't believe the correct path for that is a direct and power level related buff.Originally Posted by TicioQ Go to original post
Second one. I get where you're coming from. Barring repeating what I already said in the first reply all I can do is clarify and slightly elaborate. My response is from a damage perspective. It seemed that your opening post was also discussing from a damage perspective. hence my accusation. As far as elaborating goes..Parrying does indeed stop someone's offense. But the reality of the situation is (at least in skrims and higher level play) parrying is not the defacto defense option in team modes. As it's just as abusable and punishable as someone attempting to deflect incorrectly. Your best option in that case is to simply dodge to not only space out of range of one ganker's attacks but to also avoid externals since those are not parryable by default of target swapped properly.
Trading is a thing that becomes worse the longer a fight goes on. this is universal for any character capable of trading sans maybe shugoki due to his ability to heal with a hug. the 50 damage trade is likely going to net you 30+ damage swing in most common scenarios. Obviously if you attempt to deflect into an attack that can get a followed up attack on you guaranteed then the trade isn't worth. But if you're actively picking to deflect in situations where this will not happen than trading is 100% worth. The same situation applies both with shugoki and shaman with their bite and pounce. the swing just works out more frequently for them since they have some level of healing involved. Then again if we involve 4's entirely this includes feats. and things like fear itself and slip through will sky rocket your damage with deflects making them even more worth it from a damage perspective.
Berzerker properly trades off with his stronger deflect of a GB by having a poor option select zone and that his parries generally net a weak light input. Berzerker is still overall a better duelist than orochi but it's nothing to do with either hero's deflect capabilities. As far as the worst deflect goes I purely added in my opinion on what I think is a bad deflect since your post can be inferred to stating orochi's deflect is bad. It was an attempt to further a discussion about deflects as a whole in some capacity. I apologize that I didn't make that clear in my initial response.
My main concerns about the actual situation are 2:Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
1) That he has nothing spetial to him. He is the only character that has no personality. It is supposed to be a counter-attacker, but the tools he has to do so are flawed.
Then, other characters are as good counter-attackers, but also better characters in genereal (having feint game, health recovery,unblockables, hyper amor, etc) so there is no point taking orochi.
2) In my personal view (I play when I can, and I'm not very good, just a regular nobody that likes to play when he has a little time) the game is full of unblockables and bashes. Making the deflect game very hard or not worth in comparison to parry.
Since the beggining I wanted to play only with deflects (they are cool, i wanted to master them) and I picked orochi as I thought the description meaned that he was made for deflects.
But, in my opinion, is impossible to play if you try to deflect, you have to parry in most situations. Then, why pick orochi? if his deflects make you trade almost everytime (even the fast one, I'm okay with the 50 dmg one).
As the video shows, in most these situations you trade with a deflect but not with a parry, add the stamina drain, that is a little more safe to parry and sometimes if you are lucky you hit with a heavy... just parry.
We have to add that the ONLY way to deal with a Unblockable is to BLOCK it (how is tha possible!!?? "UN"" BLOCKABLE! ) with a parry. So you are limiting a lot the deflect game.
You can win only parrying, but you can't only deflecting.
Now... all the characters can parry, so pick wichever you like. You want to deflect? pick then one of the assassins than can stop the chains or secure dmg with is deflect.
Orochi? no no... with orochi you should know the movesets of the entire roster because against X or Z characters is not safe to deflect because you will trade, or he will just stop your deflect, so you have to be able to recognize the times and chain of the attacks...
The only thing I know is that I have not to deflect agaisnt: berseker, raider, shugoki, Kensei... because they have hiper amor in some attacks that will trade with you.
But do not forget that you should know not to deflect against valkyrie, nuxia, tiandi, shaolin, shaman... because they will trade with you as the second light chain is as faster as your fast deflect.
So do not do that unless you are a berseker, gladiator or shinobi!! you tried to deflect these with a orochi? you noob!
Sorry, I really don't want to sound passive agressive, but I'm tired making a duel and other players making fun on me becasue I'm an orochi and do not deflect (after he killed me in a trade on orochi's fast deflect) or because I do not help in a 2vs 1 becasue I only can spam light and fuel enemy's revenge. They call me coward and useless but what can I do? in best sceneario I just get ignore by the enemy and in the worst the enemy uses me to fuel revenge.
So, I just thought I could put some feedback and to ask for others opinion on the matter. Tozen's kick is most needed to add something viable to orochi, that for sure but I thought the idea of the deflect unblockables too.
Just because right now the game is so full of UB that you cannot deflect anymore, but just parry and to add for orochi something unique and became the real "Counter attacker" as supposed to be.
I don't know if this will cause a destruction of the perfect balanced game, make orochi a monster in duels or kill the fun of all the game, but personally I don't think it would be a "so big change". You can feint the mayority of unblockables (free GB), and you can parry them already. So deflect them with one character doesn't seem so wild, and knowing that this deflection will not stop the chains add to the fluidity of the fight.
But again, I'm not an expert on the game and I'm a regular player at best. For this reason I like to see all your comments.
So anyways, I'm really enjoying the conversation and I really understand some of the points in favor and against. I really love to see people that know so much with a better approach why should or shouldn't be and why is a good idea or not.
Finally, sorry for my english, as I think is evident I'm not native to it :P
Saying your going to ignore me after failing to ignore me humored me quite a bit.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Anyways I'll keep things short (Edit* i failed, Oh well @_@)
If you defend BWC while simultaneously saying defense is too strong and simultaneously concluding that orochi deflect working on unblockables would break the game I conclude that you are a hypocrite at worst and inconsistent at best as far as these conversations have gone.
Your rebutal... Was also fluff. More so in fact than mine because once again you haven't even taken the time to move past what you already think is right and look at the numbers.
Im talking, and was talking, about a simple formula: Occurrences where Orochi charged deflect NETS damage greater than average parry punishes (it is ignoble to only compare it to light parries or heavy parries alone since deflects are easiest to perform against light attacks)
First: i didn't pretend parries are infallible. Nah that's BWC in ganks. BUT Parries are absolutely going to expose you to less incoming damage and fill the revenge meter better than deflecting will + you can feint to return to blocking or cgb. The person that fishes for deflects in an anti gank doesn't know how to anti gank. And Second: No i disagree. Dodges are not the best anti gank general defense. Not by a mile. A: because your i-frames can be cut short by the players around you, B: usually your quarters are tighter in anti ganks C: revenge gain is lessened D: getting guard broken is usually death while taking a few stray hits isn't. E: the prevalence of undodgeable moves now in the game.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
The above does contextually depend tho on if your goal is to simply time out your anti gank (earn more objective time for your team) or defeat your opponents. In case of timing out yes, dodging is valuable, but i still wouldn't say more than parrying because revenge ALSO helps with timing out.
Yeah so what? Seriously.... And your point? Perhaps being so difficult, situation, and flashy shouldn't be the "point of deflecting?" That much complexity and matchup knowledge deserves a good reward, and extending deflect's VERY VERY CIRCUMSTANTIAL uses to un-blockables as well would be completely fair and balanced, as would enabling all deflects to stop combos. But we don't even have to go that far. Just consider orochi deflect alone.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
I hope you see the irony here as you have still not responded with a single logical comparison or valid reason why deflecting unblockables or interrupting combos would be a bad thing.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Perhaps the reason my arguments have been fluff is because you haven't yet given me anything substantial to argue against?
Your whole argument thus far has been:
'Deflects are good'
But that doesn't do anything, and is entirely opinion based since you aren't actually making any comparisons or references to the balance of the game or movesets in general. Telling me 'deflects are good' literally does nothing. I know how to use deflects, i know the scenarios. My most played characters back in the day were Orochi, Aramusha, Shaman, Berserker, and Shinobi. Assassins in general need a buff, and this IMO is a good place for it given their low HP and high damage risk/reward emphasized playstyle.
Not only do i disagree (at least in the case of orochi deflect being better than a parry), but the argument feels pointless. Even if 'deflects are good' Assassins still need a general buff and devs have said they will never give em full block so why not enhance deflects?
You have still not given me this pure damage perspective. You have not given me numbers. I've gone and looked myself, but as I said until you start producing actual metrics I WILL NOT. you want to prove this point? go show me the calculation in a fair and balanced way using something similar to the formula i mentioned in the first paragraph. And for kicks after you get that number compare it to the number of circumstances where BP gets his guaranteed 30 dmg and safely. just for kicks.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Yeahp.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Again I understand the amount of matchup change this would cause. But i still think the change would be positive for the balance of the game and for bringing assassins back in line. And as I said a damage nerf in some cases would be justified. Making the -deflects interrupt combo- change wouldn't even effect some assassins since they already do it, and without breaking the game mind you. Making the -deflects work on unblockables- would be drastic, but again in this moment I can't think of a single occurrence of a directional unblockable attack being deflected breaking the game with the other defenses already in the game considered. In fact in almost all moments an unblockable is started the user has the choice to feint into GB already, and guess what? that interaction would still work, just using unblockables on assassins would now actually carry some decisive wait. You don't even have to consider both of these options. Consider what would happen if one of these options was implemented if you like.
If you choose to ignore me so be it. But I will continue to call you out on your hypocrisy as it continues. Your bias in favor of the heavy black prior has never been more visible to me than it is now.
I understand this. (and have already very very obviously been aware of this, or did you forget the conversation you and i recently had in another thread where i literally analyzed the frame data for the entirety of the bulwark maneuver?)Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
But all of that info doesn't further the argument one way or the other. With deflect you not only have to make a read for the deflect to succeed, but you have to make reads about that the opponent may follow up with, and also even after the first read to score the deflect if you read incorrectly and they dodge your heavy deflect as orochi you just came out in the negative (on console more of an issue than on PC), AND the scenario for even getting that deflect is much tighter timing than BWC is. ADDITIONALLY deflect works on less maneuvers, you can ALSO be bopped out of it, AND it requires committing to the dodge. with a gb or parry vulnerability then (should you choose to dodge attack).
AND deflect in a gank is FAR less likely to succeed safely than a BWC. just because you CAN get countered in an anti gank with a BWC doesn't somehow balance it alone. For fun also note that BWC can stop some deflects.
Again please use For honor Values spreadsheets and do some damage calculations, find how frequently the orochi deflect nets more than a 30 dmg gain and you will have an actual valuable comparison. instead of these meaningless back and forths.
Also you should condense your two posts.
Even tho the first one was contextually nothing but an insult (i know your relationship with valor)