Hi everyone!
So I'been playing some matches and I had a lot of fun deflecting (somehow i manage to do it a lot, maybe the pause for the game was good).
Anyways, I noticed that my previous complaint about orochi's deflects still an issue (for me) and even worsened as the light attacks of every characters got faster.
My main complaint is that for Orochi there is no reason to deflect, and even is a bad move as he normally trade dmg.
1) If you do light deflect you do 35 dmg, but you trade with a lot of opponents. So is ALWAYS better to parry (stop combo, drain enemy stamina, and 35 dmg for up slow attack). Then no use of deflect at all.
2) If you do the charged one, you will trade for 50 dmg (quite good) even if it's very difficult. The main problem is that you trade normally for 30 dmg so 20 of difference, having orochi low HP, I dont think is worth, but the attack is ok.
3) you cannot deflect unblockables, so another thing that make you want to parry instead of deflect
CONCLUSION: Orochi, character based on deflect, must no deflect to have better chances on combat. The issue is that he doesn't have other moves, nothing apart lights easy to parry. So right now is an unviable character.
Solutions?:
They are a lot of threads about this already, so I will no add anything apart one idea! what if we made orochi unvulnerable during the fast deflect (so he can't trade as is not intended for the light one)
Or make his parries able to stop chains, as shinobi and berseker.
For last, To make him somehow especial, what if we make Orochi able to deflect Unblockables. This way, he could rely for real on a deflect game, be unique as an assassin (is the only one without anything especial) and make him stand more on fights 4vs1 without having to be parrying all the time...thing that all characters can do.
I hope to see your opinions on these ideas! thank you very much!
If they brought in tozens moves with speed and balance adjustments it would make him SO coolOriginally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
why? it would be too unbalanced?
As you can already parry it, why not a character able to deflect it, is one way to add reasons for orochi to deflect.
Right now:
Light attack --> parry better than deflect
Heavy attack --> Parry better than deflect
want to stop chain --> parry better than deflect
difficulty of the move --> parry way easier than to deflect
Unblockables --> the ONLY way is making a parry, and adding that is easier to make, what would cost to make orochi able to deflect it?
I'm sorry but your game is broken, is impossible to play it anymore. You only find teams full of LB and the guys with the hammer, and is just impossible to play it anymore.
It cannot be game where some characters are just unplayable and you make loose your team because you like an speceific character.
You should try to put a little effort on the balancing because is very frustrating to loose automaticlly because in your team the are 2 orochis and in the other 2 hammers (i don't know the game) spamming with any other guy with unblockable attacks.
P.S: I would want to know what mak eorochi able to deflect unblockables is bad idea, just to understand, thanks
I would say Orochi has one of the best deflect scenarios in the game. Purely because he DOES get an option that allows him to trade with armored moves. In a vast majority of situations doing 50 damage in a trade is going to be worth it over anything you're likely to trade with. Him having his HP being slightly lower due to being an assassin is a correct balancing point so you don't try to trade with everything you see. The fact that he can even soft feint into the normal deflect for 35 damage should the move be slow enough to simply interrupt or block is also very good.
The fact that you believe light and heavy parries are always better than deflecting for orochi just speaks to me that you don't have as good of a grasp on the game as you might think. As you'd be more aware of punish values across the roster. And thus wouldn't make statements like saying a heavy parry is always better than a deflect. When in reality deflecting is always better than a heavy parry barring very few character specific situations. Deflect damage on average is directly comparable and even better than light parry damage in some situations.
Making orochi's deflect capable of interrupting offense like zerk/shinobi is ruining the point of deflecting. Deflects are supposed to in large be about frame advantages as stated by the devs. If you give every assassin the capability to stop offense you're not only going against this design philosophy but also making assassins better than your standard hero. Because they then have two options to stop offense compared to just the one that's universal i.e parrying. Deflecting and full block are meant to be situational punishes. Not something you look to do by default more than a parry.
If we were to peg a deflect as being the defacto worst deflect in the game i'd have to give that to Shaolin. It's the lowest damaging deflect at 25. And while it has armor, can execute, and you can fast flow into QI stance from it the capability of following up with a crushing counter is incredibly inconsistent and thus can't be considered a reasonable benefit. One could argue that because Nuxia's deflect is blockable you could say it's the worst. But I have to disagree. it's a 40 damage deflect that's always guaranteed if you swap your guard direction. I recognize that's a hard ask to remember to do and consistently pull off for even seasoned players. But that doesn't change my mind on the deflect.
I disagree with your statements on so many levels Knight. You are simplifying and slanting things as i will explain.
Before getting into it tho to respond to the OP: I've stated before but physics wise parrying unblockables makes no sense. Deflecting unblockables actually does, but that's a whole different bag of discussion. I feel like the team behind for honor made a big mistake in the first place with these moves but generally its too late to turn back.
How is this metrically viable tho compared to a parry? Its just not. The only rare situation this is valuable is when that 50 guarantees the kill when parrying wouldn't, but going for that 50 is still a huge risk as it can be dodged, flipped, and countered in and of itself cause no portion of it is guaranteed, even the 35 dmg isnt guaranteed depending on the matchup.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
This is again just simply not true because deflecting is always a trade off. IE an orochi could have parried instead.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
When attempting to parry, if you have noticed the enemy feint you still have a small ability to either read, or react, and feint as well.
When attempting a deflect you have to commit to the dodge, which means it comes with inherent risks as if the opponent baited you its very easy for them to GB your dodge OR to parry based on your dodges direction should you have decided to dodge attack. This is further worsened as player count increases. It's also the reason Zhanzhu performs poorly. Dodging is currently incredibly weak as far as defensive maneuvers go. I think you often come at these things with a duelist perspective but dueling is not the whole game. Parrying is always safer with higher combatant count because you auto parry any other followups while deflect leaves you vulnerable to exterior attackers, even more so when you go for the heavy. So your statement about the "vast majority of situations" is just incorrect. In the vast majority of situations going for a deflect will get you killed.
It is true that the move is versatile, but based on your manner of arguing in support of BP BWC the versatility of a move doesn't matter so it seems kinda hypocritical in my mind for you to even mention its ability to soft feint. But i honestly do not think orochi's damage profile is tuned properly hit point and damage wise to be considered correct balancing. When compared with Lawbro for a simple example. even post coming update. Go look up the metrics of their punishes and do some HP comparison math. The numbers paint a pretty clear picture. This imbalance is made more severe as well when you consider assassin guard. I get seriously tired of you making broad statements about the balance without backing them up at all with metrics. So ima do the same (not present metrics for each of my arguments)Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Again this analysis omits other key data points, such as:Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
-the difficulty of deflecting, the more vulnerable state you are left in on a failed deflect or bad read,
-the viability of parrying vs deflecting in multi target scenarios,
-The actual net damage gain of the deflect considered percentage wise in the opponent matchup,
-The ease of access to heal feats to recover the traded damage (orochi being considered here) as compared to the opponent they traded with
-AND most importantly the opponents ability to dodge the heavy input deflect. Raime I've grown so tired of reading your stuff here and on the competitive for honor reddit. (both of which i frequent, but i tend not to respond as much lately cause this already eats way to much of my personal time.) About two years ago I trusted most of your forum posts because they were generally well thought out critiques. But i've slowly seen you grow to make more and more bad broad analytical statements that omit the context of the maneuver you are discussing.
Thats just blatantly incorrect.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Think about it.
How would this make "assassins better than your standard hero?" ESPECIALLY if two already exist that can do this, but one of the two is still currently the bottom of the barrel worst on the whole roster. Very very obvious the presence of Shinobi's deflect doesn't make him on the high end of balancing. It doesn't break Berserker, it certainly doesn't break Shinobi. And you ALSO MAKE THE CLAIM ELSEWHERE that the full stop BWC of BP doesn't break the game (which btw grants 30 dmg, invulnerability, doesn't require trading, and is present on a higher HP hero.....)
So in what freaking world would assassins all having maneuvers that stopped a single opponents flow to deal high dmg break the game? Yeah if it was given the ability to stop flow I would want a damage nerf, but the point is: It wouldn't break the game, in fact it would make the game fairer as currently the game is vastly balanced in favor of heavier characters.
First paragraph; Is not that Orochis want to trade with the fast deflect, this is something that start happening after the game became so fast. For example, you deflect against tiandi, but the second light will always hit you. Is not suposed to happend. For this reason is better to parry because you stop the chain, and you deal a similar amount of dmg.
Having low HP for assassin is ok (not ok right now because all characters are as faster but with more HP) but that force you as an orochi to parry, because you will dye deflecting (both deflects are traders). So just parry.
Second one: I say is better to parry because, again, some chain will trade with you even in the fast deflect. If is the end of the chain you can deflect
Dmg is better on orchis deflect, but making trades make it worst in the long run (that the point i want to make).
third one: Then we agree that the only way to stop chains is to parry, I'm okay with it if something is corrected with light deflect to make it operational. But understand my point that orochi only has deflects, having berseker.. a far better duelist , having a far superior deflect....
fifth one: I never say orochi's deflect was the worst, but one that is a trap as you will loose health on a character that has little.
I'm not gonna talk about shinobi again with you here. Leave that subject well alone.Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
as for your small time spent on the actual subject at hand, im just gonna ask: What's your point? Your information is again flawed and omitting circumstance, but it also has no purpose. My point (which none of what you said invalidated whether correct or incorrect btw) is that having orochi deflects work on unblockables and actually stop a combo would absolutely in no way break the game, especially because of what others already have in their toolkits.