1. #31
    WBBCoop's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by UbiYubble Go to original post
    Do you think Casual/Quick Match matchmaking should only factor in K/D or W/L?
    Of course not. Either one of those alone would not be a system in and of itself.

    Ranked presumably uses W/L as its primary factor (although you didn't confirm this for me), which it should.

    Quick Play, IMO, should use W/L as a primary also, but..QP has unique qualities which makes it possible for the system to include other properties from the players usage and conduct. An example would be, abandoning. If you abandon a Ranked match you get a temp ban, but you cant do that for QP (for reasons we dont need to discuss here). However, you can include QP abandons in the selection process.

    It's almost impossible to think of how exactly the QP MM system could work without the collective data you have on us; which understandably you can't share.
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  2. #32
    UbiYubble's Avatar Community Representative
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    Originally Posted by WBBCoop Go to original post
    Of course not. Either one of those alone would not be a system in and of itself.

    Ranked presumably uses W/L as its primary factor (although you didn't confirm this for me), which it should.

    Quick Play, IMO, should use W/L as a primary also, but..QP has unique qualities which makes it possible for the system to include other properties from the players usage and conduct. An example would be, abandoning. If you abandon a Ranked match you get a temp ban, but you cant do that for QP (for reasons we dont need to discuss here). However, you can include QP abandons in the selection process.

    It's almost impossible to think of how exactly the QP MM system could work without the collective data you have on us; which understandably you can't share.
    Thanks, Coop. UbiMorning and I are keeping the dev team in the loop on this conversation, so we'll continue to monitor it and see how it progresses.
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  3. #33
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    So last night played some casual. Full of plats, diamonds and champions besides the usual smurfs because the back half of the season is always when ranked people retire to stomp in casual. Almost every match I was seeing these ranks. Yeah I know... ranked MMR is unrelated to casual MMR. That flawed system is what leads to casual becoming sweatier than ranked but anyway....

    Went into Ranked and found it so enjoyable to only be paired against people relatively within acceptable skill tiers that you might win against or lose to but at least felt like it wasn't DoMInAtIoN like casual matchmaking. But of course then I remembered all the maps that I'll never be able to play in Ranked and the fact that 2/3 of the game modes have been removed from that mode and I was reminded why I play casual in the first place for the variety.

    Ugh. Why do I have to pick between acess to more maps and modes or more fair matchmaking but can't get both? Can we just fix casual matchmaking to actually work like it does in ranked? Does it have to be crap shoot matchmaking only in casual?
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  4. #34
    Originally Posted by lceycat Go to original post
    So last night played some casual. Full of plats, diamonds and champions besides the usual smurfs because the back half of the season is always when ranked people retire to stomp in casual. Almost every match I was seeing these ranks. Yeah I know... ranked MMR is unrelated to casual MMR. That flawed system is what leads to casual becoming sweatier than ranked but anyway....

    Went into Ranked and found it so enjoyable to only be paired against people relatively within acceptable skill tiers that you might win against or lose to but at least felt like it wasn't DoMInAtIoN like casual matchmaking. But of course then I remembered all the maps that I'll never be able to play in Ranked and the fact that 2/3 of the game modes have been removed from that mode and I was reminded why I play casual in the first place for the variety.

    Ugh. Why do I have to pick between acess to more maps and modes or more fair matchmaking but can't get both? Can we just fix casual matchmaking to actually work like it does in ranked? Does it have to be crap shoot matchmaking only in casual?
    Honestly why not just do away with mmr for casual. Hear me out. Games like MW2 were fun because of the variety of skill lvls youd see. There was no rhyme or reason one match would be fair the next could be a curb stomp for you or against you. It spices it up because the moment you add rank to casual its not casual. Not to mention whether you care or not, a ranked system in casual is unfair to those higher ranks as they generally end up playing the same ppl. It wasnt uncommon which is way they changed it in the first place.
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by Luckydevil_010 Go to original post
    Honestly why not just do away with mmr for casual. Hear me out. Games like MW2 were fun because of the variety of skill lvls youd see. There was no rhyme or reason one match would be fair the next could be a curb stomp for you or against you. It spices it up because the moment you add rank to casual its not casual. Not to mention whether you care or not, a ranked system in casual is unfair to those higher ranks as they generally end up playing the same ppl. It wasnt uncommon which is way they changed it in the first place.
    There needs to be some sbmm and it needs to be implemented better. I'm not sure I'm sympathetic to the idea that it's unfair to higher skill players to keep playing the same people with an MMR system - so to be fair to those players so they get more variety of opponents they should be given more cannon fodder to play against that's clearly way below their skill ceiling? I'm sure that's a good time for those top 20% of skill players. Bet the 80% of skill players below that feel differently as they get dominated for those higher players sake of fairness of variety of players to be matched against though.

    Also you can't make the comparison to games like CoD, Battlefield, etc. where random non skill matchmaking worked that way because the player pools per match were MUCH larger. Teams might have 10 or more players PER side. Getting a huge random mix makes much more sense there as there's way more people running around within a given match. (Not to mention the respawn based gameplay being more forgiving to being dominated) Like how do you account for random matchmaking when an enemy team is often a 4 or 5 stack squad that queues together as one matchmaking block yet still hold up to the CoD example of matchmaking? In CoD an entire enemy team cannot be completely compromised of a squad that matches AS a whole group (except for some specific smaller game modes I suppose)
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  6. #36
    WBBCoop's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by lceycat Go to original post
    So last night played some casual. Full of plats, diamonds and champions besides the usual smurfs because the back half of the season is always when ranked people retire to stomp in casual. Almost every match I was seeing these ranks. Yeah I know... ranked MMR is unrelated to casual MMR. That flawed system is what leads to casual becoming sweatier than ranked but anyway....

    Went into Ranked and found it so enjoyable to only be paired against people relatively within acceptable skill tiers that you might win against or lose to but at least felt like it wasn't DoMInAtIoN like casual matchmaking. But of course then I remembered all the maps that I'll never be able to play in Ranked and the fact that 2/3 of the game modes have been removed from that mode and I was reminded why I play casual in the first place for the variety.

    Ugh. Why do I have to pick between acess to more maps and modes or more fair matchmaking but can't get both? Can we just fix casual matchmaking to actually work like it does in ranked? Does it have to be crap shoot matchmaking only in casual?
    I'm not completely 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure Ubi has by now recognized there is a large enough part of the community that is not satisfied with the QP Matchmaking to warrant a few changes. I don't think it will be very long until we get some love on this issue, but I also think it's important to have them understand what we think should be factored into the QP MMR.

    Of course there are all sorts of things you could consider. But we need a foundation to work with. Even you agreed that Ranked matchmaking is vastly superior - and It's foundation is the Win/Loss creating the MMR value. It only seems logical that the complexities of QP uses the same basic system as Its benchmark. Right?

    Basically, lceycat, what types of things can you think of that would make your Ranked matches more..casual? Because at this stage, I think this is the question we're working on now. Cheers!

    Originally Posted by Luckydevil_010 Go to original post
    Honestly why not just do away with mmr for casual. Hear me out. Games like MW2 were fun because of the variety of skill lvls youd see. There was no rhyme or reason one match would be fair the next could be a curb stomp for you or against you. It spices it up because the moment you add rank to casual its not casual. Not to mention whether you care or not, a ranked system in casual is unfair to those higher ranks as they generally end up playing the same ppl. It wasnt uncommon which is way they changed it in the first place.
    The earlier 'Ranked-Casual' didn't have separate MMR's though. They basically had two Ranked modes that shared the same MMR across them, essentially duplicating one over the other but the Casual version didn't show the flashy rank emblem. I honestly don't see how they thought it was gonna fly in the first place, and yea it was a miserable failure for the higher rankers, and was long ago changed, but since then we've had separate MMR values. Before that (in the beginning) we had a Random Casual, and it worked just like you described, but now we have too great a skill gap in the community..and I don't think it would be generally fair for the new players to be randomized into the game (forget the New Player/Smurf mode).

    I think it's completely fair for everyone to have a Rank in Quick Play. Plats and Diamonds (or anyone for that matter) could chillax or they can sweat it out with their peers. Hell, over the years I've gone against stacks of elites that tries to push us to the limit and not totally obliterate us. Sometimes they even let us win. IMO, that's the type of principle 'Casual' should revolve around, and that's why I think the W/L should hold the most accountability in QP.

    Originally Posted by UbiYubble Go to original post
    Thanks, Coop. UbiMorning and I are keeping the dev team in the loop on this conversation, so we'll continue to monitor it and see how it progresses.
    No problem Yubble. I genuinely appreciate you guys keeping tabs on this! I know QP is a difficult achievement..
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  7. #37
    The solution is simple. Data. Data. More data. Add more data and statistics to the MMR, and just when you think you've added enough? Add 100X more data. Every single scrap of data you have on a player should be part of the system. The information used to calculate should be longitudinal (go backwards in time to the beginning) and vertical (deeply incorporate each metric to its furthest extent). And if the devs ever think, "Wow - I think we've got enough information here..." then you slap their fingers with a yardstick and tell them to think again.
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  8. #38
    Originally Posted by lceycat Go to original post
    There needs to be some sbmm and it needs to be implemented better. I'm not sure I'm sympathetic to the idea that it's unfair to higher skill players to keep playing the same people with an MMR system - so to be fair to those players so they get more variety of opponents they should be given more cannon fodder to play against that's clearly way below their skill ceiling? I'm sure that's a good time for those top 20% of skill players. Bet the 80% of skill players below that feel differently as they get dominated for those higher players sake of fairness of variety of players to be matched against though.

    Also you can't make the comparison to games like CoD, Battlefield, etc. where random non skill matchmaking worked that way because the player pools per match were MUCH larger. Teams might have 10 or more players PER side. Getting a huge random mix makes much more sense there as there's way more people running around within a given match. (Not to mention the respawn based gameplay being more forgiving to being dominated) Like how do you account for random matchmaking when an enemy team is often a 4 or 5 stack squad that queues together as one matchmaking block yet still hold up to the CoD example of matchmaking? In CoD an entire enemy team cannot be completely compromised of a squad that matches AS a whole group (except for some specific smaller game modes I suppose)
    One the standard cod mode is 6v6. Thats two more ppl. Two play against legit cod clans theres often a huge skill gap between pubs and them.

    Yes its unfair to those of a higher rank besides which its a good opportunity for lower ranks. Its how you get better as coop pointed out they often push you into playing better and increasing your skill. Its why i have no problem with the current mmr.
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  9. #39
    lceycat's Avatar Member
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    Originally Posted by Luckydevil_010 Go to original post
    One the standard cod mode is 6v6. Thats two more ppl. Two play against legit cod clans theres often a huge skill gap between pubs and them.

    Yes its unfair to those of a higher rank besides which its a good opportunity for lower ranks. Its how you get better as coop pointed out they often push you into playing better and increasing your skill. Its why i have no problem with the current mmr.
    Hmm when I play CoD the most popular mode is team deathmatch and it seems to be 10v10. I don't play every CoD game because they are all respawn meat grinders and get boring to me.

    I never liked the argument that high skill disparity is okay because that's how you learn. That CAN be true but that doesn't make it an absolute. In fact it usually isn't. I can improve by seeing what people do that are better than me when it comes to holding a new angle or using a bit of map knowledge I was unaware of or setting up a new site defense I've never seen before. That CAN happen. The amount of times I've learned something by playing against someone godly above my skill level is maybe 5%. The other 95% of the experience of playing groups of people WAY above my skill level is that they are fast and accurate and I die. You can't learn aggression and flicks by being dominated before you even get a chance to do anything. I can't learn how to be a better player by watching a Diamond on kill cam do lean spam, rapid fire stance change quick peak flick shots that seem to always land their shots no matter how spasticly they twitch all over the place at hyperspeed. What did I learn by watching that? That I'm outclassed as hell? That's not a transferrable skill by merely watching it used against you.

    You learn by playing against people who you have a chance against not people who seem to have magical game sense and god tier accuracy and reflexes.

    Example. I play at low Gold equivalent levels, most of my regular teammates are around the mid gold to mid silver skill level range as well. So when we play casual and repeatedly find ourselves up against plats, diamonds and champions (and of course level 21 smurfs too) we are playing against people 3-7 rank tiers higher than our skill range for the best of us on our team and 7-11 rank tiers higher than the worst of our team's skill range. That's not a space in which you learn, that's a space in which you get toyed with because you literally don't stand a chance. What do we learn? Be fast and aggressive and accurate while spamming various movements and flicks? I guess. I can box Mike Tyson on his prime and learn the same thing, doesn't mean I would then be able to become like him afterwards. All that would teach me is I never belonged in the ring with him in the first place. Which is exactly my point when our mixed gold and silver squad repeatedly runs into high plats diamonds and champion squads.
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  10. #40
    WBBCoop's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Luckydevil_010 Go to original post
    Yes its unfair to those of a higher rank besides which its a good opportunity for lower ranks. Its how you get better as coop pointed out they often push you into playing better and increasing your skill. Its why i have no problem with the current mmr.
    Here's a quote from another thread that I think fits..

    Originally Posted by DanTheManArcher Go to original post
    After 3 minutes of searching it should open up the mm and just find me a match. I could be on all night resetting 5 minute queues and it will refuse to find me a match. However I go on a lvl 80 unranked smurf and it will find me one instantly. This is just dumb and I should not be forced to abandon my main account. Even during the day it will take so long trying to find me a sweaty match, when I just want a QUICK match where I sit in the corner or try fun things. The casual mm needs an overhaul.
    This man doesn't agree with you Luckydevil. I do, but it's not looking too good for players that cap out their QMR apparently .

    I don't think anyone wants QP to mirror Ranked. Been there done that and fell flat. Alternatively, I also think the system should be as simple as possible. Pro doesn't even use a system, you win or you don't. Ranked is Pro with points (and point adjustment depending on blah blah blah). It's simple, fair, and out in the open. Quick Play? Erm..hmm..is it supposed to be better than Ranked? More fair? That's not possible..it just..isn't. Not unless you look at history.

    What exactly is Quick Play anyways? Better yet, what do you think it is now compared to what you think it should be? For me personally, QP has been nothing short of Ranked #2 with different maps, longer round times, shorter matches, no P&B, and without the badge and A-bans. Oh yea, some hidden system is taking my time and fun into its digital hands. But It's the same game though, and most every casual tries their inebriated hardest.

    So it boils down to just how much, and with what, we want Ubi to screw with, in the perfect system- IE No system (You win or you lose and that's where you are)?! I honestly don't know for sure. I'd like to suspect the bulk of the players are cool, and don't need any adjustments..and for some (you know who you are)..well, let's just say minor and periodic tweaking to MM might be considered. Other than that I guess I'd like to see the devs nail down something and be open about it..like Ranked. I wouldn't even mind loosing all the time to diamonds if my basic W/L QP MMR brackets me there..just throw me a bone once in a while. But kicking the snot in and out of teams for hours? No dice. Instant adjustments need to be there as a safety net.

    After all my babbling, I sorta think a basic W/L would work very well if there was a soft-reset every day. That way the skilled players can still teach us without gumming us while not locking themselves into long que times by being overachievers *at times. It's simple while effectively broadening the interactions between the players. But most importantly, Ubi would probably even be open to the idea of telling us how it works. Hell, that's enough to just try it!
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