In my opinion Ubisoft should remove reflex guard from the game and increase the minimum hp to 125 or 130 so all heroes have a better performance in general. I think all neutral lights in the game should be 500ms, so every character has an option for an opener or a counter tool against bashes. Another point to bashes is that every hero should have a counter tool to punish bashes in the game in form of a fast dodge attack, a side dodge bash or a unique mechanic like BP´s. Every hero should also have some kind of midchain-pressure with viable attacks or a chainable bash. Furthermore, should every bash feed the same amount of revenge mechanics like the Toestab included. If a hero has unblockable attacks in his/her kit like Raider with Raider’s Fury the attack should have such a speed that the opponent cannot interrupt you with a 500ms light midchain in 1v1 scenario because there are slow unblockable attacks in the game like Kensei’s top heavy finisher, Shaman’s left heavy finisher and as mentioned before Raider’s Fury.
Thanks for reading this far I am curious about your opinions to these topics.
I think it's safe to say a good number of these changes benefit the Assassin hero type more than others. Whenever it comes to major standardization changes like this I'm always interested in what hero(s) the suggesting player considers to be a good standard to point to. What heroes have all the traits and potential you want to see in the wider cast?
about lights , I don't have ideaOriginally Posted by TheDonMega70 Go to original post
but some heroes need more punish like BP bash , toes stab and some more
new gald really need nerf , toestab too fast and no punish low revenge feed and high dmg guarantee in gnag , can destroy revenge as well
zone whit high guarantee attack because not allow more dodge attacks , faintable heavy after bash
as assassin , he don't have GB punish and its so hard to fight for no opener heroes
BP unstoppable bash is too hard to fight cuz no punish or low punish
and forward dodge guard break , between the bashes make us crazy
Toe stab is punishable by every dodge attack except Jiang Jun's one and its speed is fine. The low revenge feed is the big problem with toe stab and what needs to be fixed. His zone could be toned down but he would need compensation in the form of stronger offense.Originally Posted by Sakura__Empire Go to original post
BP's bash is punishable by most dodge attacks on reaction. The thing about bash recoveries is: if you give everyone a GB punish on reaction to a bash then you essentially delete the viability of that move. Why would anyone want to risk throwing out a bash that nets a 13-15 damage light if the punish on reaction to seeing the bash is 33-40 damage and/or being ledged? Bashes need to have relatively low recovery in order to encourage players to throw them out. Otherwise we will go back to staring contests where nobody throws out any attacks.
Instead of nerfing the recoveries you could either reduce the damage from the guaranteed attack after a bash or give every hero a dodge attack option but increase bash speeds by a minimum of 33ms.
I agree, its ridiculous how they made bashes completely un-punishable. A fast attack that completely bypasses/ignores your blocking, cannot be parried, drains target's stamina, interrupts anything the target is doing including hyperarmor... isnt that already good enough? Being not punishable on top of all that makes no sense. If you have access to such attack, then theoretically why even bother throwing out anything else and risk eating a light parry or gb? (in general both on paper and in practice, its the best kind of attack thanks to its thousand positive properties mentioned earlier) If they can keep dodging, throw a gb or undodgeable. Bashes should be as punishable as everything else is. If someone throws something this good at you and you do manage to defend against it, you absolutely deserve to give deliver a punishment. (At the very LEAST a small one). Not even gonna bring up the ability of mixing them into guessing combos.
I always found the defense of "Well, some characters can punish bashes, so its fine" to be nonsense. What about the rest? If half cast lacks tools to deal with a move, then there is something wrong with that move and it move should be either changed or the handicapped cast should receive the tools.
So i agree with the OP that everyone should be able to punish a bash in one way or another.
• Whether its something more generic like a dodge attack (heck, they could make the dodge attack on some characters who didnt have one, such as warlord, shugo, hito etc. deal lower damage than usual since they are apparently these fatboys who are meant to suck at it more than assassins, keeping assassins and dodge masters... well, still better at it)
•Or they could do something else like a defensive move universal on multiple characters, thats specifically meant for bashes, perhaps similar to BPs flip. but hey, it could only work on bashes and be vulnerable to the other stuff. It could deal lower damage than bulwark and not make you invulnerable if you landed it. Kind of like a minor version of bulwark that multiple characters have access to, but still keeping BP special/best/master at it. It would be assigned to a new button. On hito/shugo/cent etc for example, it could simply be the key that normally activates stances. Or it could be the feint button, since that one does nothing unless youre throwing a heavy. You manage to predict/react to a bash, you press the button, your character starts blocking/defending against bashes for a short moment, they bash right into it, you play your little punish animation. Done. Someone big like warlord or shugo could play animation where they push the basher back without flinching and getting a light afterward. Someone like aramusha would instead use the bashers weight against them, quickly stand aside tripping and letting the basher stumble trough and slap them in the back of their head, blinding them, perhaps even ledging them if there was ledge behing aramusha. And so on. In most cases such as the warlord/shugo example it would be quick to keep the combat going with a short window to throw the light.
I find the second idea especially fun/exciting.
Or yes, they could reduce the damage from bashes, tho offensive moves chipping damage away by tiny bits is so incredibly boring to me. It is something that would help balance things, but its more of a band-aid than a proper fix/solution to the problem.
And one idea i once had would be introducing a new attack property that makes them only blockable and not parry-able. For example could be added on some slow attacks that lack any special properties. This would surely encourage people to throw these. Instead of just the godawful bashes being the only option. Could be added to some slow heavies that lack any other properties for example, be it neutral ones or combo ones. I mostly imagine this in something like like raider throwing his triple heavy combo, or the finisher blockable heavy. You dont always punish them easily but at least you can block them, and as attacker you get a bit of chip damage in. They could add it to various attacks, or change various mostly too risky/useless attacks into it. And im sure it wouldnt ruin the game for lower level/newer players as much as bashes do nowadays. Overall it wouldnt do much, but still a bit something. I think could be an interesting new attack property to add into the game as long as its on its own and not mixed with others. (mixing it with undodeable would be dumb) And i believe it would help with creation of new characters too, making someone bashless still not being so overly vulnerable/punishable by parries. The main point of it is to encourage you to throw these attacks even if they get blocked, without worrying about an easy parry. Trying to reduce staring contests and bashes from being the only viable option. If i remember right, undodeable property on attacks didnt exist when game launched and was added much later right?
I also agree that toestab needs toning down, in my opinion its overpowered at the moment, 20 instant damage unblockable with better tracking than most attack is too much. Increasing revenge feeding isnt enough, but also gotta be done ofcourse. Not to mention how many times you tried to finish someone turtly with a bash, just to activate their revenge before your follow up attack lands, this cant happen with toe stab. Isnt the move already way harder to dodge than any other non-chargeable bash in the game? Not to mention now also unpunishable as a bonus on top. Aaand it puts you into a short animation (Just like cents heavies), turning you into a completely open sitting duck for enemy teammate attacks (unless you picked the right character, which is just wrong for reasons stated earlier). Its the definition of overpowered bash and godly tool in ganks. Im all for damage nerf by making feat not buff it, this seriously couldnt have been intentional could it? Revenge feed being increased notably, and tracking on it reduced slightly.
As for Community Representative's reply, im all for the assassin specific boost myself aswell, it makes perfect logical sense for assassins in particular to get some health increase in addition to getting rid of reflex guard. Considering they have mostly nothing to show for it. Other than -light spam- on some, anything assassins do, there are characters from other classes who can do it better without suffering these two penalties. I would love for the balance team to explain in detail why reflex guard is still a good thing nowadays, as i remember hearing somewhere they straight up want it to stay.
They could do that but then they would need to make punishing bashes a more prediction based game for everyone. Characters with dodge attacks that can reaction punish a bash are already a hard counter to bash based heroes, which forces heores who rely on their bashes to get their offense in to turtle instead. It's not as easy as just giving everyone a reaction punish to seeing orange because then we'll just go back to a defense meta.Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
Because of all the positives of bashing as compared to other attacks it is very much my opinion that dodging bashes generally should be reactionary based not prediction. Reactionaty works with heavies and unblockables because they can be feinted and because the counter requires commitment. Making all bashes prediction based would be a really really bad idea imo. Combat is too idiotically bash heavy right now and that would only make it worse. The cool tri directional swordplay guard idea would then finally give up its last breath and all combat would be mixups into bashes followed by guaranteed dmges.
Another option is have bashes work like gbs kinda or parries. Ie give players a way to riposte them, or manipulate the bashers momentum. Then id be okay with them being prediction based. Hear me out
Although the input would need to be refined, consider currently if every hero had a manuever that countered bashes by moving backwards and gbing. This manuever would simply push the basher through in a counter grapple turn around (basher ends up behind the defending player, defending player position remains unchanged). This move wouldnt enable any follow up attacks unless wallspatting the basher. Should be active 100-200ms have between 200ms to 400ms recovery for the defender and maybe 500ms-600ms recovery for the bashed (calculated from the start of defenders recovery)
would be a drastic change but it would make prediction bashes very reasonable and would provide risk and reward to all forms of bashing. Dodging bashes on prediction would still be the main thing to do in open field, but when your back is against a ledge or a wall there is another answer. But misusing it... and theres very much enough recovery for yoiu to get wrecked.
I have already suggested that you could lower damage from bash follow up attacks instead. If there's aversion to speeding up forward dodge bashes by at least 33ms then they could give all forward dodge bashes variable input timings so they can't be punished on the same timing every single time. Give everyone's dodge attacks variable input timings as well and we'll have an environment that incorporates both reaction and prediction based play at all player levels.Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
On a side note, you mention a character's "tier" as if that is the end all and be all for that specific hero. Tier list placements are very binary and fail at conveying the actual depth and fluidity of a hero's capabilities and roles. Gladiator for example is not considered an S-tier duelist and yet the tools he has in his kit can completely nullify a Warden if played to those strengths. You yourself mentioned Tiandi and how he can counter bashes yet he is not considered a terribly strong duelist. The competitive tier list is/was used as a general and very rough indication of what the current meta is at the top. It doesn't show anything of the fluid nature of how a hero can perform in different situations such as character matchups and the effectiveness of each hero at performing different roles. That's why the For Honor info hub decided to adopt Zer0_craic's idea for a roles based chart instead of a tier list. It still has the problem of not clearly explaining that heroes don't have to fit a single rigid role but it's still a work in progress.
Those are actually pretty simple and good suggestions. Kind of dumb how they haven't been implemented for 3 years, but with this dev team...
There are some things that I believe should be fine tuned along with these changes. Highlander, for example, should have his Crushing Counter frames reduced to match everyone else (except Prior) if his lights were to be sped up to 500ms. Everyone should have a dodge attack or at least a guaranteed offense starter, at the cost of being around twice as low damage as what the bash guarantees (assuming viable mid-chain follows it), so as to not discourage its usage while always requiring more bashes than not to be dodged by the defender in order to win, which when you put the GB and parry bait options in play skews the odds perfectly in the attacker's favor without being likely to win with just doing a bash and resetting to neutral. I'll also say that I'm definitely against making 500ms bashes prediction-based.
We'll see if their design philosophy has at all changed tomorrow.
I think Shaman is without a doubt the best assassin in the game so far, also has midchain pressure, unblockables, the best dodge attack and a very good chasing potential if not the best. I would like that more heroes have a good chasing potential especially assassins because most of the assassins have higher move speed. In regard to health points there shouldn't be a 30 hp gap between LB and an assassin because it is like you got hit by a heavy from start and always have this handicap to overcome. In regard to reflex guard in 1vX situation it is very annoying to external block/parry scenarios because you have to concentrate on this rather than to focus on all the other stuff that is going on the battlefield. Adding to my former point you only have disadvantages comparing to static guard hero. I think some would say you have a deflect as an assassin, but there are many heroes with similiar mechanics like Valkyrie, Zhanhu, Kensei (only viable against top stance attacks) and Tiandi.