Can we get an explaination on why shinobi is being ignored as a hero? | Forums

[Siegfried-Z]

I did play him on console. He is one of the hardest heroes to play right now, but definetly not unplayable. In 1v1 his parry punishes and deflects are strong which encourages turtling, it is one of the problems with Shinobi as a hero rn. Hence why he needs a rework

On console turtling is a bad strategy because of the speed of overall attacks in the game now and massive input delay/30fps.

A very little heroe only can do that as Conq for example.

Otherwise you better keep the offensive advantage on console... rely on parry or deflect isnt something consistent enough unless opponent is a beginner or you read him like a book.

On PC, yes turtle is still the best way to play as you can deflect most things hands down.. thats why i prefer the console version of the game.

[Siegfried-Z]

Because its harder? Yes its harder but still not impossible

Its a lot harder. If i try to turtle on console i am kind of able to block most attack, but not parry or deflect it.
I do some light parry of course but turtling on console end in more dmg received than scored thanks to a parry once you get one unless you already read your opponent.

Most 500ms or faster parry/deflect are prediction made on console. You can react to 500ms attack but the input delay often make you miss the parry.

Thats why blocking is often the best you can reactionary do in most cases.

In another hand on PC with my setup running the game at 130fps i was parrying, deflecting or CC most 500ms mooves ON REACTION.
I even got some 400ms light parry on reaction.

Thats why light parry and deflect is a lot more efficient on PC, even more when you read your opponent everything become possible to punish consistently while its another story on console.

Thats why thing as turtling or lack of offense are still a thing on PC while the console version doesnt suffer from it anymore.

[Valoredramack]

Its a lot harder. If i try to turtle on console i am kind of able to block most attack, but not parry or deflect it.

This is correct, the people who say that the Shinobi is strong in parry and deflects are conveniently the same people who do not actively use the Shinobi and probably couldn't even perform a deflect most of the time even if they tried to.

Damage values do not compensate for the difficulty in even being able to pull off such a move; the hero is pretty much unplayable in 1v1 unless you're fighting players with noticeably inferior skill.

If you're facing off against someone with equal skill, then the Shinobi has a massive disadvantage against any other hero.

[Siegfried-Z]

You are all talking from a console perspective, which is yes relatively harder than PC yes. Performing deflects are not that hard on PC. Also if someone is inferior of skill no matter what hero they use even an Orochi can beat him if the Orochi's skill harder. In this game skill is much advantageous than someone who only spams and bashes

Wasnt console versus PC turtling and punish efficiency what we were discussing about ?

Deflect and light parry are easy to do on PC yes, the major difference is that you can do it on Reaction most Times while they have to be prediction made on console due to input delay. Sometimes i have my super instinct time and do some 500ms light parry or CC on reaction but usually with the input delay you need a minimum of anticipation.

I would also correct your last sentence, some heroe can or could reduce the skills gap between 2 players.

For example as you talk about bash, lets say a Plat player picking his rep 1 BP and just bash spamming can make in troubles Diamond and even Master players. Not saying he gonna win, but he has a lot more chance than with playing .. Shinobi for example as it would be the opposite, picking his rep 1 Shino would probably make the Plat player loose to Gold players.

It was the same for pre nerf Raider and Hito which allowed you to compete against higher skills people.

I agree with you tho, skills are overall the most important but some heroe can still boost your skills or reduce them.

[TheUberDome]

What I really want to know is why his hyperarmour on his kick was removed. Heroes like warden and hitokiri have hyperarmour on their bashes, and both of those are feintable. Shinobi's kick is not feintable and is really easy to react too, so can only be used as a tool to counter. Why did they get to keep their armour, but shinobi doesnt.

[Gaser.]

What I really want to know is why his hyperarmour on his kick was removed. Heroes like warden and hitokiri have hyperarmour on their bashes, and both of those are feintable. Shinobi's kick is not feintable and is really easy to react too, so can only be used as a tool to counter. Why did they get to keep their armour, but shinobi doesnt.

Simple warden bash requires it to be charged.

Hitokiri only has hyper armour on the sweep which required a charge up too. (Also the sweep is not feintable)

Shinobi losing his hyper armour was needed simple because the kick would be way to good as a countering tool, because double dodge and hyper armoured bash is just way to strong.

Also on miss you can just back flip out of most.

[Siegfried-Z]

Simple warden bash requires it to be charged.

Hitokiri only has hyper armour on the sweep which required a charge up too. (Also the sweep is not feintable)

Shinobi losing his hyper armour was needed simple because the kick would be way to good as a countering tool, because double dodge and hyper armoured bash is just way to strong.

Also on miss you can just back flip out of most.

Warden and Hito bash mix up are way more efficient than pre nerf Shino kick.

HA doesnt boost his countering efficiency. If you being counter attacked properly, HA or not you gonna get hit by the kick.

Actually HA on his kick was his only way to go into his back flip mindgame by taking the risk to trade. Because even with the HA, looking at his low HP and the dmg of the follow up trading wasnt good for the Shinobi against most heroes.

But at least you could tell yourself you didnt trade for nothing and are now in your bred and butter gameplay.. at least.

Plus, the double dodge kick is a highly telegraphed moove.. so the HA was needed to keep opponent on his toes and not just Dodge attack it all the time unless playing a heroe with a range able to close the backflip gap before recovery.

In the opposite, Hito sweep isnt feintable but has HA and comes out after 2 first opportunity (kick, feint into whatever).

Warden can back Dodge into SB which is extremly efficient and boring. Its also a pure gess for opponent to read as he has 3 lvl of charge.

I have no problems against those bash, i am fine with them but saying Shinobi Kick is problematic compare to those is wrong.

Actually the only change i agree with this disgusting nerf he had was on sickle rain cutscene. All the rest was brutal for Shino efficiency.

[Hormly]

Always felt like Shinobi just didn't belong 🤔

[We.the.North]

Actually the only change i agree with this disgusting nerf he had was on sickle rain cutscene. All the rest was brutal for Shino efficiency.

Agreed, the sickle rain had to be nerfed and everything else was an over nerf. However, I'll say the removal of stamina bonus on equipement (when we switched to perks) also hit hte Shinobi very hard and our stamina cost reduction perk is not even noticeable (should be massively buffed)

Shinobi is the only assassin without a working dodge attack. It's so clunky, every opponents with 400 ms 2nd hit in a chain will actualy interrupt the Shinobi's kick. Hyper armor used to fix that by allowing the Shinobi to "trade" with his kick for a 25 damage ranged heavy.

But now, the dodge attack is very clunky and works only against some of the other heroes. Shinobi being a "counter-attacker" doesn't fit the character description anymore. However, I do agree Shinobi's description as being "hard to master", he's probably the highest skill cap character in the game.

Despite all this, I still pull off a 58% solo win rate in dominion and around 3.2 KDA. But that's only because I play Shinobi like a ganker and run to find favorable fight everytime I get outnumbered.

[Gaser.]

Warden and Hito bash mix up are way more efficient than pre nerf Shino kick.

HA doesnt boost his countering efficiency. If you being counter attacked properly, HA or not you gonna get hit by the kick.

Actually HA on his kick was his only way to go into his back flip mindgame by taking the risk to trade. Because even with the HA, looking at his low HP and the dmg of the follow up trading wasnt good for the Shinobi against most heroes.

But at least you could tell yourself you didnt trade for nothing and are now in your bred and butter gameplay.. at least.

Plus, the double dodge kick is a highly telegraphed moove.. so the HA was needed to keep opponent on his toes and not just Dodge attack it all the time unless playing a heroe with a range able to close the backflip gap before recovery.

In the opposite, Hito sweep isnt feintable but has HA and comes out after 2 first opportunity (kick, feint into whatever).

Warden can back Dodge into SB which is extremly efficient and boring. Its also a pure gess for opponent to read as he has 3 lvl of charge.

I have no problems against those bash, i am fine with them but saying Shinobi Kick is problematic compare to those is wrong.

Actually the only change i agree with this disgusting nerf he had was on sickle rain cutscene. All the rest was brutal for Shino efficiency.

I still think the kick shouldn’t get any hyper armour in his current state, sure the move is highly reactable but how many characters can really punish shinobi for missing the kick? (Because as far as I know shinobi can still cancel his recovery with a charged heavy, maybe I’m mistaken and Ubi fixed it)

Like I believe around 7 characters can punish him for the whiff. (Even trough one of them is glass bash)

Shinobis kit has no offensive power it’s a poking and evading moveset, giving the kick hyper armour is like putting bandaids on a broken knee and saying it’s fine now.

Note that this is just my opinion and that I just believe Shinobis current moveset can’t work without either being to weak or to strong.